I am currently playing in a Shattered Star campaign and am current in book 4 and there seems to be a fondness for using creatures that cause Confusion. While it is too late for Shattered Star, I do think it was extremely overused in that AP and needs to be dialed back a bit.
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Rest easy, Geoffrey. I've barely seen confusion used at all in Reign of Winter. Indeed, a wizard PC in my game has had to research the spell in Baba Yaga's library because of everyone in the AP, only Jadrenka ever prepares it, and she ain't sharing. The closest anyone else in the AP ever comes is an advanced mandragora who has a poison that causes a confusion-like effect. As such, and take this with a grain of salt because I haven't read Shattered Star, I don't think this is indicative of any kind of "trend" in APs as a whole. Rather, I suspect it simply fits some kind of theme in Shattered Star. Sowing discord among the PCs of that path also prevents them from using the pieces of the Sihedron in concert, for example.
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I was not involved in Shattered Star, and I haven't utilized a lot of confusion effects lately.
However, this is a common complaint among my players. I feel I have to point out that the 1st level protection spells offer a second saving throw at a bonus. A good aligned character can take protection from chaos and order too. Wizards get scribe scroll for free, and 1st level spells make for pretty cheap aids against confusion. If all else fails, perhaps dispel magic?
I'm not unsympathetic, but my players also complain about fear effects and paralysis. Remove fear and remove paralysis are not high level spells and immediately suppress these effects. As does remove sickness. These are all cheap scrolls and potions.
Poison sucks too, but delay poison is a low level spell, and if you're really cheap—antitoxin is quite affordable.
And while we're at, who doesn't hate those damn swarms? Paizo overuses swarms. We all know that. May I suggest swarm suits? Or alchemist's fire as low-cost cures?
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I'm not trying to be sarcastic, truly. But encounters tend to teach a lesson and encourage groups to adapt and be prepared. Many sucky negative conditions have fairly low level and accessible solutions.
I was not involved in Shattered Star, and I haven't utilized a lot of confusion effects lately.
However, this is a common complaint among my players. I feel I have to point out that the 1st level protection spells offer a second saving throw at a bonus. A good aligned character can take protection from chaos and order too. Wizards get scribe scroll for free, and 1st level spells make for pretty cheap aids against confusion. If all else fails, perhaps dispel magic?
I'm not unsympathetic, but my players also complain about fear effects and paralysis. Remove fear and remove paralysis are not high level spells and immediately suppress these effects. As does remove sickness. These are all cheap scrolls and potions.
Poison sucks too, but delay poison is a low level spell, and if you're really cheap antitoxin is quite affordable.
And while we're at, who doesn't hate those damn swarms? Paizo overuses swarms. We all know that. May I suggest swarm suits? Or alchemist's fire as low-cost cures?
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I'm not trying to be sarcastic, truly. But encounters tend to teach a lesson and encourage groups to adapt and be prepared. Many sucky negative conditions have fairly low level and accessible solutions.
Prot/Evil does not help with confusion unfortunately. I have a clear spindle ioun stone in a wayfinder so if Prot/Evil worked I would be covered.
I have gotten my will saves up to +9 which I think is pretty decent for a level 12 fighter. I have an innate bonus to fear effects but it rarely comes up. If the GM says make a will save, there is a good chance it is a confusion effect.
We do have the ability to remove a lot of those conditions but the main issue here is I think there needs to be more variety in the hazards you encounter. A similar thing happened with my rogue in Serpent Skull. He only had one good save. But I don't think it was until near the end of book for I had to make a reflex save. If one occurred, it was like 1 or 2 times a book and the few traps we ran into targeted AC instead. There were plenty of will and fort saves to make though. Eventually we started running into things making area of effect attacks so it became useful but before then, it was pretty much useless.
Prot/Evil does not help with confusion unfortunately. I have a clear spindle ioun stone in a wayfinder so if Prot/Evil worked I would be covered.
I am not going to quibble with your overall point. I respect your opinion, and your feedback. However, you're incorrect. A protection spell would most certainly help. It is not listed specifically, but the descriptor is clearly listed.
Confusion is an enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting] spell.
Here is the text from the protection spells.
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person. This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell.
Emphasis mine.
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I am not going to quibble with your overall point. I respect your opinion, and your feedback. However, you're incorrect. A protection spell would most certainly help. It is not listed specifically, but the descriptor is clearly listed.
Confusion is an enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting] spell.
Here is the text from the protection spells.
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person. This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell.Emphasis mine.
I don't mean to speak out of turn, but as of May 2011 Sean K. Reynolds said the opposite. Essentially, the important bit of text is not "enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects", but rather "any spells that possess or exercise mental control over the creature". I don't know if things have changed in two years, and everybody's free to implement their own house rules, but as far as I can tell, the base assumption as to whether protection from evil provides a second saving throw against confusion is that it does not.
Not that it matters much. It just means that folks wishing to protect themselves from confusion need to be packing dispel magic instead of protection from evil.
Wow, fair enough! I stand corrected!
How is confusion not exercising mental control? For that matter, how is any [compulsion] spell not exercising mental control? Because it's not exercising direct or active control? The target PC, if he fails the save, can't choose to not be confused any more than he can choose to not see the person who cast charm person as a trusted friend and ally if he were charmed.
Is the nitpick really necessary?
It's cool, Bill. I mean, Pathfinder is a complex game. I made a mistake. It happens.
I don't want to discourage the feedback any more.
It just means that folks wishing to protect themselves from confusion need to be packing dispel magic instead of protection from evil.
Which is third-level rather than first, slightly undermining Jim's point about how low-level and accessible it is for PCs to counter confusion with cheap scrolls and excess spell slots. :)
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The target PC, if he fails the save, can't choose to not be confused any more than he can choose to not see the person who cast charm person as a trusted friend and ally if he were charmed.
But here's the kicker: no one else can control the target PC's actions either. The PC isn't under the caster's control. He's not under his own control. He is literally out of control. A charmed character is more open to the influence of the charm's caster. A dominated character is, with a few caveats, the caster's puppet. A confused character has the same relationship with the caster as he did before he became confused, but can't necessarily act on his impulses or decisions regarding the caster, the caster's allies, his own allies, or innocent bystanders.
Is the nitpick really necessary?
In this case, since getting a second save to resist the spell - with a +2 bonus just for kicks - substantially increases the odds of resisting the spell, yeah, knowing whether or not a character is entitled to that second save is pretty darn important. Any given GM may choose to rule the other way, and they're absolutely, one hundred percent within their rights to do so. But the state of things should be specific one way or the other.
Which is third-level rather than first, slightly undermining Jim's point about how low-level and accessible it is for PCs to counter confusion with cheap scrolls and excess spell slots. :)
Only slightly. Dispel magic is still one level lower than confusion on the Cleric (who gets access to confusion via domains), Witch, and Wizard lists, and is the same level as confusion on the Bard list :)
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Calm Emotions (2nd level Cleric and Bard) also removes the Confused Condition.
See, it's useful for more things than just making Barbarians very nervous...
Unbreakable Heart is a first level spell from the Inner Sea World Guide that suppresses confusion and dominate - it's intended to counter spells that could compel a person to attack their allies.
It's not as good as protection from evil, but it's not bad.
I was pretty happy when I finally saw Sean's errata, since it'd been bothering the hell out of me that a 1st level spell countered almost an entire school of spells (and numerous witch hexes).
Um, if you guys are completely unfamiliar with Shattered Star(or any other AP that relies on these kind of effects), you got no right to say 'oh it can be easily countered by x, be more prepared next time'.
You weren't there, man. You weren't there.
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And while we're at, who doesn't hate those damn swarms? Paizo overuses swarms. We all know that. May I suggest swarm suits? Or alchemist's fire as low-cost cures?
I feel the issue here is less "swarms" than it is "swarms in adventures where the PCs have no opportunity to acquire swarm defences". A swarm in a tier 1-2 PFS adventure is hard to cope with without an alchemist (or negative energy cleric).
LazarX, you're right, but for the wrong reason, as revealed in later posts.
Also, I never specified protection from evil. I wasn't specific. A good caster can learn protection from law and chaos.
I feel the issue here is less "swarms" than it is "swarms in adventures where the PCs have no opportunity to acquire swarm defences". A swarm in a tier 1-2 PFS adventure is hard to cope with without an alchemist (or negative energy cleric).
I'll grant that an unexpected swarm on1st level PCs is pretty obnoxious.
At first level, you run from swarms... unless you have alchemist fire on hand.I feel the issue here is less "swarms" than it is "swarms in adventures where the PCs have no opportunity to acquire swarm defences". A swarm in a tier 1-2 PFS adventure is hard to cope with without an alchemist (or negative energy cleric).I'll grant that an unexpected swarm on1st level PCs is pretty obnoxious.
Of course, but the shoveller did specify PFS scenarios in their remark. That does complicate matters a little, because the scenario premise might not permit later purchases, or an objective might be lost because of the need for flight. Just sayin'.
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Speaking in general terms, whether one agrees or disagrees with any one specific example I made, many nasty conditions can be alleviated by many 2nd level spells and resources. That's the fact, Jack. I'm NOT saying every sucky situation a group ever encountered was actually their own fault, from lack of preparation. That would be unfair. I know that.
But preparation and prevention certainly alleviate those problems. Saying that is fair. Especially after being stung badly by one of them once already. We design APs four PCs with a somewhat balanced array of class abilities and resources (PFS has a higher PC assumption). If you have a magus, monk, bard, alchemist party, I would expect some challenges, because we can't design for that. It's not impossible to run such a group! But you can expect challenges. We also kinda figure you'll buy some resources at some point.
Now this thread was addressed to AP and scenario authors, and as look around the forums I can see I'm the only one that has replied. I'm either brave or stupid, or both.
If the OP wants to ask me not to layer multiple confusion effects one on top of each other-I think I can help. Feedback duly noted! I'll do my best. :) Sincerely.
But you can expect there will be confusion, paralysis, fear, haunts, swarms, and all that horrible nasty stuff. They're not going anywhere. I will strive to make them interesting and meaningful however.
And I think that is all I can contribute to this conversation, so I am out of here.
Creative Director
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The inclusion of an overabundance of confusion-causing monsters was not intentional... although since madness and insanity are one of the underlying themes of the whole AP, I can understand why so many confusion effects crept into Shattered Star.
As with all adventures, if there's an element in an AP that you think is overplayed for your group, by all means you should change or adapt the adventure. If there's too much confusion spells... either change it to something else similar (fear or hold monster or even just crushing despair), or simply cut the abilities entirely. Pretty much all monsters have other options available.
In any event, it's not something that I went out of my way to make sure was in a large number of monsters, nor was I even aware that this perception could be made. This is the first time in my years working on adventures for RPGs, in fact, that I've heard the complaint "too many confusion effects" so it's fair to say it was never on my radar in the first place.
I'll keep an eye on it in the future, though!
Of all the negative status effects a character can suffer, Confusion is definitely the most interesting.
The rest are pretty much simple numerical penalties, or are completely crippling. Confusion has the right balance of hindering a character in a mechanically meaningful way and still allowing them the chance to operate at full capacity.
If anything, I'd like to see more effects like that.
yep I want to see more effects where my PC punches himself in the face for four rounds straight
and because that is not actually true I will be getting my medallion, a wayfinder set with a clear spindle ioun stone (yes hurble burble will not help against confusion durm derm I know) and as high a Will save as I can manage
It wasn't so much as we couldn't deal with it as it seemed to coming up way too often. So far the only one to die as a result of Confusion is