Hey, I'm running my players through the labyrinth next session. I've been searching the forums for some tips on how to run it, but I wanted to ask if anyone has run it more recently, and what they've done?
For our tabletop, we use maptools on my TV in my living room. For the rotations, I'm planning on manually covering everything with fog of war, swapping the map (I made versions of the map with the four rotations, since the only other ones I could find weren't snapped to a grid) then revealing it again, since I can't use VBL with the rotations.
I don't really have any specific questions. I'm just slightly overwhelmed by the whole thing, since it seems like the combination of Vimanda disguised as Vencarlo, mixed with Sivit and the traps, could make running this incredibly complicated, but there only seems to be one or two paragraphs about the whole encounter with her.
The AP says she (as Vencarlo) will try to convince the party that Bahor sent them here to die; however, the party doesn't know Glorio is anything other than Glorio. Does Vimanda reveal that Glorio is a rakshasa?
I'm fairly confident I can run with what I've got, but any tips or experiences (other than what's already posted in the forums) would be very helpful!
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Hello again! Glad to hear the party's chat with Bahor went well!
With only 2 NPCs running around, this isn't as bad as it seems. I have run this twice and can offer a giant text wall of ideas (sorry if some of this is repeats of replies on your other post). I am also assuming that you played up Glorio similar to the way I did.
Timing is everything -> Run the whole thing in rounds. This makes it easier to keep track of the bad guys and the rotations. Also, players start thinking in "combat mode" as soon as you go to rounds and running the labyrinth this way should keep them on edge a little. If you like getting into your players' heads like I do, break up their initiative and roll a few dice as if you are running more than two NPCs. Don't take too long, obviously, but an extra pause between some initiative counts gives them time to discuss their options and worry about what you are doing rolling all of those dice back there. You can also use this time to keep your head around where Vimanda and Sivit are in relation to the PCs and the levers.
Fortune favors the prepared -> No doubt you've already done this, but just in case: familiarize yourself with the traps. I scribbled notes and DCs all over a printout of the map (common practice for me) to make sure I could keep the flow of the game moving.
It's a LABYRINTH -> Don't be afraid to have NPCs rotate the dungeon and split the party. Nothing says panic like a squishy PC all alone (even when no threats are imminent). Normally, this is a horrible idea, but if you run the whole thing in rounds it isn't a problem--and the whole map isn't that large so they can't get THAT separated.
Sivit -> I can't add much to Sivit that the book doesn't already. I'll just remind you that Sivit has no love or loyalty for Vimanda, and if she realizes Vimanda is attempting to betray Bahor, she is literally bound to stop her at all costs, and certainly before turning her attention back on the PCs. Vimanda, of course, knows this.
Vimanda -> This villain can be a fun challenge for the party and help verify all of those lies that Bahor told them. It's even more fun if the party still has the raktavarna to cast helpful suggestions like "drop your sword." If the party has the ring of evasion from Bahor, Vimanda can easily track the party with her third eye (it's all the same Blinding Night tradition). I mention this because my conversion did not have locate object. It's her dungeon (all hers in the PCs' minds if that Glorio guy was convincing), so Vimanda knows about all of the traps and all of the symbols (that she is immune to). She doesn't like Sivit, and would like to avoid her if possible.
My basic tips for Vimanda are pretty straightforward: lie, cheat, and kill. She starts off as Vencarlo, and there are a couple things you should do here to play with the PCs.
STEP ONE: LIE (Not-Vencarlo)
She shows up as Vencarlo, and a couple things should happen to clue in the PCs. If Vencarlo was flirting with a particular PC in previous books, have him flirt with the "wrong one" this time (Melyia Arkona would know that Vencarlo is a bit of a Casanova, but not with whom). Then make sure everyone makes their save vs. detect thoughts. Remember: if you pass you only get a "tingly feeling," and the Spellcraft check to recognize this supernatural ability should be beyond anything the party can muster--if they even ask. It will still get the metagame juices flowing, though.
The real hint is Not-Vencarlo's urgent attempts to turn them away from finding Neolandus and towards fighting Glorio. Not-Vencarlo claims that Glorio put him and Neolandus down here and that he must pay. He is a black mark on Korvosa and responsible for unspeakable crimes. Not-Vencarlo has no examples (Vimanda wants the criminal empire for herself, after all), but he may talk about how the Arkonas are known to be involved with smugglers and thieves. It is important that you mention the seneschal here as a helpful hint to the PCs. The best hint, of course, is giving Not-Vencarlo the BlackJack outfit and having him not realize what it is immediately. Also, Not-Vencarlo would rather keep a kukri out than "his" own rapier.
When they ask about rescuing Neolandus, Not-Vencarlo responds that the seneschal can wait, and he would understand if he knew they were going after Glorio. Further questions about the seneschal are met with frustration, non-answers, and insistence that the party move against Glorio. Unlike with Glorio, roll your Bluff checks if the PCs want to Sense Motive. The only answer Not-Vencarlo should give the party is that he knows where Neolandus is and that he is perfectly safe for now (that one is true). He hopes this will comfort them so that they feel good about fighting Glorio. Questions about Melyia Arkona should also be revealing. Not-Vencarlo claims to have not seen her once during his capture.
So far I've had one party discover Not-Vencarlo was not Vencarlo, and another insist upon securing the seneschal's safety before leaving the labyrinth. If the party really does decide to go right for Glorio, Vimanda will lead them right to Bahor, who knows they are coming. As another fiat, maybe Bahor can contact Sivit and attempt to stop Vimanda before she leaves the dungeon.
DISCOVERY IN STEP ONE? LIE SOME MORE!
If Vimanda is discovered at this time, there is no need for her to keep up the Not-Vencarlo act. She admits as much to the party and apologizes for her trickery. She only used Vencarlo's image because she thought the party would be more accepting. She then transforms back to her true form--Melyia Arkona!
Now is when Melyia tries to convince the party that she is also trapped down here... with weapons. Probably a tough sell with what Glorio has told the group (along with the average player's refusal to let go of red herrings). Maybe she can still talk them into abandoning Vencarlo and Neolandus to fight Glorio, but it is unlikely with you rolling those opposed Bluff dice behind the GM screen. She should start accusing Glorio of all the things that he accused her of, plus locking her down in the dungeons. The difference is, the party has heard this all before and it doesn't sound as good a second time. If she gets desperate she can play the rakshasa card, but, since it swings both ways it has to be a last resort (for both Arkonas). Although Vimanda has no intentions of letting the PCs leave the palace alive if they help or not, so she is more willing to tell this truth than Bahor.
STEP TWO: CHEAT (Use the Labyrinth)
If the party insists upon saving the seneschal and still haven't figured Vimanda out yet, have Not-Vencarlo agree to lead the group to them. Then take the party on a merry romp through every trap they haven't hit yet. If the party questions Not-Vencarlo on his directions, he claims to only knows how to get to Neolandus by backtracking exactly--he apologizes if it is not a direct route. Vimanda is really looking for an opportunity to strike the group when it is weak, and the raktavarna will strike as soon as Vimanda does.
This approach is exactly the same if the party has figured out that Vimanda is not really Vencarlo already. DO NOT stand and fight the group. Burn through those javelins, tactically retreat, aim to split the party, and, above all, try to get the PCs to trigger some traps. Also, if Vimanda has no need of all-around vision or the bite and claw attacks, she is better off staying in an alter self Medium size form for the +2 Strength. No need to spoil the Rakshasa secret if she doesn't have to.
DISCOVERY IN STEP TWO: TRY LYING AGAIN!
This should go down the same as in Step One. If she has led the party on a merry, trap-filled romp, however, she may not even get to speak before beginning a fighting retreat through the trapped labyrinth (or as one player of mine put it: the Home Alone method).
STEP THREE: KILL (Divide and conquer)
If Vimanda gets a chance, either as herself, Melyia, or Not-Vencarlo, she will use levers to isolate party members and take them out. If the party is not careful they can suffer some casualties here. If she can lead them around as Not-Vencarlo, mess up some PCs with a trap and cut off one or more, she is going in for the surprise kill.
Aftermath -> There are a lot of ways this can shake out, but if you do it right, a couple things are working in your favor: the party is weakened (the palace guard + the secret temple + the labyrinth + the torturer + a giant reefclaw), they are saddled with Vencarlo and Neolandus who are both in bad shape, and even if they suspect Glorio is a big, bad rakshasa the group probably doesn't want to tangle with him at the moment after messing with the other Arkona. Use these things to subtly point the party towards escape. This is in the party's best interest, because in two tries I haven't had a group leave the labyrinth in any shape to fight Bahor, who is a pretty high CR.
I hope that wasn't as boring as I think it was! I also hope that it is in some way a little helpful in your game. If Bahor makes it through (and he has twice in my games) he becomes a fun antagonist in Crown of Fangs--whether the PCs believe he is a rakshasa or not.
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Thanks to the OP for asking this question, as I'm also running CotCT on Maptool. I'm only on book 1, but I had the same concerns as you when I read through the AP.
Also, I've been consistently blown away by the helpfulness of people posting on these boards.
Knick: As I've previously mentioned, I love your take on the Arkonas and will be using your post as a manual when I run this AP!
EvilMinion: Good to know, I didn't know any of that. Wow, symbols suck! (for the players that is)
Oh man! Thanks a ton! Those are all great ideas, Knick.
In my game, the Raktavarna got found out (they had given it to an NPC who had previously helped them enchant things; it killed him and snuck back to the PC's inn, they brought it outside and had the paladin smite evil sunder it) so it's not there anymore.
Making a printout of the map with the traps and DC would be a great idea. I'm using my roommate's PDFs for it and flipping it back and forth has always been a hassle.
The help with Vimanda is just perfect. I'm going to make a print out of your tips with her too, and it should be a huge help.
Happy to help!
EvilMinion is absolutely correct on the symbols, but you may want to reduce the duration depending upon group resources. If they are stocked up on dispel magic and have a rogue who can detect and disarm them easily, I say leave them as is. If the group isn't well equipped to handle them, I'd still nail them with status conditions, but I'd also keep the spell effect from blocking off entire rooms for hours of game time--that is no fun for anybody involved and slows your game pace to a terribly boring crawl. Even I can be a nice GM sometimes!
Have fun! And if you ever need more tips on how to use players' metagaming ways against them for fun and profit (okay, just fun) let me know!
P.S. You don't have to wait for other people to post your questions Laric. I have found that the Paizo community is usually here to help.
Happy to help!
...
P.S. You don't have to wait for other people to post your questions Laric. I have found that the Paizo community is usually here to help.
Thanks Knick!
Actually, I do have some more questions for you:
How did you run things between the PCs meeting with Glorio and the PCs entering the Vivified Labyrinth?
Specifically, how did you handle encounters involving other Rakshasas (especially Avidexu)? If the PCs kill any of the Rakshasa before meeting Vimanda, won't they know what they are dealing with and so be extremely suspicious of Vimanda?
Or maybe that just lends further support to Glorio's version of things?
I had Glorio tell them about the doorway underneath the elephant statue, and I also had him warn them that if they go to the garden there is no knowing what Melyia's servants might do. He has already given them his "greatest protective item" in the ring of evasion, and cannot offer further help, but he genuinely hopes for their success (at killing Vimanda, not so much rescuing Vencarlo).
Having the servants turn out to be monsters just supports Glorio's story. Remember, Glorio mentions how Melyia has been replacing all of the guards and slowly making him a prisoner in his own home. He should also mention Melyia spending a small fortune on improvements to the dungeon. All of this just makes everything the players see conform to what Glorio told them.
Man, that's perfect. I'm going to be using that tonight.
The end of last session, the players fought the fungal guardians. Unfortunately, we had forgotten to level up, and they hadn't spent any of their gold, so...well, when two people dropped, I decided "this is all a dream Zellara had. You guys are still speaking to Glorio, and you can rest and level up right now!" Definitely a cop-out, but it was my fault we forgot to level up anyway, and a couple spellcasters would have gotten a new spell level.
Tonight, we're going to be (re)running the start of the dungeon. I'm going to fix up what Glorio said; I hadn't included the hook that "It's Melyia's dungeon all along!"
Laric; you're also using maptools for CotCT, right? If you use vision blocking layers like I do, the labyrinth is going to cause a problem, due to the rotating rooms, since VBL can't be rotated. The best solution I could come up with was to uncover fog-of-war manually for that map. I use the auto-reveal option when I move the PCs, so I either need to remember to turn it off, or cover the entire labyrinth with a solid VBL rectangle so I don't accidently reveal the whole thing. Any time the rooms rotate, I'm going to recover it with fog, change the rooms, move the tokens, then uncover the rooms the PCs are in.
The best solution I had for rotating was to photoshop the four possible positions of the rooms. There is a post on these forums with all rotations, but they aren't snapped to a grid, so it's hard to use for maptools. I created an object on the background layer, visible to players. When the rooms rotate, I just go to that layer, double click it, and change the image to the next rotation (I have rotation1 through rotation4 in a folder).
I'll upload the rotations after I get home from work.
I had Glorio tell them about the doorway underneath the elephant statue, and I also had him warn them that if they go to the garden there is no knowing what Melyia's servants might do. He has already given them his "greatest protective item" in the ring of evasion, and cannot offer further help, but he genuinely hopes for their success (at killing Vimanda, not so much rescuing Vencarlo).
Having the servants turn out to be monsters just supports Glorio's story. Remember, Glorio mentions how Melyia has been replacing all of the guards and slowly making him a prisoner in his own home. He should also mention Melyia spending a small fortune on improvements to the dungeon. All of this just makes everything the players see conform to what Glorio told them.
Love it! Thanks!
Man, that's perfect. I'm going to be using that tonight.
The end of last session, the players fought the fungal guardians. Unfortunately, we had forgotten to level up, and they hadn't spent any of their gold, so...well, when two people dropped, I decided "this is all a dream Zellara had. You guys are still speaking to Glorio, and you can rest and level up right now!" Definitely a cop-out, but it was my fault we forgot to level up anyway, and a couple spellcasters would have gotten a new spell level.
Tonight, we're going to be (re)running the start of the dungeon. I'm going to fix up what Glorio said; I hadn't included the hook that "It's Melyia's dungeon all along!"
Laric; you're also using maptools for CotCT, right? If you use vision blocking layers like I do, the labyrinth is going to cause a problem, due to the rotating rooms, since VBL can't be rotated. The best solution I could come up with was to uncover fog-of-war manually for that map. I use the auto-reveal option when I move the PCs, so I either need to remember to turn it off, or cover the entire labyrinth with a solid VBL rectangle so I don't accidently reveal the whole thing. Any time the rooms rotate, I'm going to recover it with fog, change the rooms, move the tokens, then uncover the rooms the PCs are in.
The best solution I had for rotating was to photoshop the four possible positions of the rooms. There is a post on these forums with all rotations, but they aren't snapped to a grid, so it's hard to use for maptools. I created an object on the background layer, visible to players. When the rooms rotate, I just go to that layer, double click it, and change the image to the next rotation (I have rotation1 through rotation4 in a folder).I'll upload the rotations after I get home from work.
Thanks for maptools advice IcedMilk!
In general I do use VBL but don't use "Snap to Grid" or "Auto-Reveal". I'll have to see how I want to do it when the time comes (I'm still only on book 1 at the moment), but would really like to see your versions of the rotations.
So, ran this tonight. My players encountered Not-Vencarlo...and didn't even once think something was wrong. I was secretly rolling tons of bluff vs sense motive so I could at least give them a clue, but the players had no idea.
They gave Not-Vencarlo Blackjack's gear, even though he didn't recognize it. They wanted him to be protected. (So now Vimanda has a +2 belt of dexterity.)
Not-Vencarlo said that Neolandus was safe, and that they need to deal with Glorio, and the players totally agreed. They attempted to find a safe way out, but got distracted by the four glowing portals. They decided to hit the switch that made them all go to the same place (I allowed a PC to spellcraft to figure out their function and he hit 30), and then jump in at the same time, locking them in a cell. Not-Vencarlo decided to avoid this and wait (watching them with spells)
The PCs cleaned up the Beatific One pretty easily, and rescued Neolandus, who was definitely not safe. I'm looking forward to the players realizing they just gave their best gear to Melyia.