A few comments in the various early-entry Mystic Theurge build threads that have been going around recently have me wondering about a few things.
Can a Cleric with Preferred Spell use her non-domain spell slots to cast her Preferred Spell if it's a domain-only spell? (I'm assuming not, although the only thing a search turned up was a three year old comment from SKR that a cleric can never cast domain spells with non-domain slots.)
If not, can a Theologian do so? (I'm assuming SKR's comment predates this archetype.)
Can a character with Preferred Spell and multiple casting classes use the slots from any class for her Preferred Spell, or only for the class(es) in which she knows the spell? (I assume the later, but the feat's text doesn't actually say anything to this effect.)
Can a Mystic Theurge use Domain slots to cast non-cleric spells via Combined Spells?
Can a Mystic Theurge use Combined Spells to cast domain spells with non-cleric slots?
Do casting prestige classes give higher level domain slots to a cleric? Do they also give the higher level domain spells to put in those domain slots?
Can a Mystic Theurge with Preferred Spell spontaneously cast her Preferred Spell with the spell slots of the opposite class via Combined Spells?
(I've tried to keep the questions as generalized as I can, but the particular build that I'm interested in is an Admixturer / Cleric / MT focused on Fireball. Depending on the answers to the above, she may be a Theologian or not, and may take the Fire domain or not. Ideally, I'd want to be able to use the Fate Inquisition to achieve early entry into MT to make the entire concept remotely worthwhile mechanically. If Theologian and Fire Domain are both required to make it work, then I'd have to either make her a traditional MT or give up on having her be a human and use a racial SLA to achieve the early entry.)
No opinions?
My understand was.
You did not gain Domain Spells, Bonus Spell, Bloodline Powers, Feats, or other class ability from the Mystic Theurge class.
What you gain is = Link
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Prestige Classes and Spellcasters: Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?
No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook.
—Jason Bulmahn, 11/24/10 Back to Top
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Oliver: That actually may answer a different outstanding discussion, thanks!
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No opinions?
It's a good list of questions. But it's a long one! Between the length of the list and what I suspect is growing Theurge-fatigue on the boards after a week of craziness, I'm not too surprised you didn't get much traction here. But they *are* good questions, and since you're asking I'll give my opinions.
But first, a disclaimer. These are just my off-the-cuff opinions; though I've been soaking up a lot of Theurge stuff in the last week I haven't sat down and sorted it all out. (Plus, it's really not clear how strictly we can take the RAW in many of these cases, if it's even clear what the RAW is: because the MT questions are new and the rules for that class are pretty unclear, and because most Pathfinder rules are (as it seems to me) written assuming straightforward, just what you'd think, builds–not tricky builds.)
In any case, I'm not insisting on any of these claims, they're just my "how I feel about it" opinions. "How I'd rule in my home game," I guess.
I've re-ordered your questions a bit in a way that makes more sense to me.
[1.a] Can a Cleric with Preferred Spell use her non-domain spell slots to cast her Preferred Spell if it's a domain-only spell? (I'm assuming not, although the only thing a search turned up was a three year old comment from SKR that a cleric can never cast domain spells with non-domain slots.)
[1.b]If not, can a Theologian do so? (I'm assuming SKR's comment predates this archetype.)
[2]Can a character with Preferred Spell and multiple casting classes use the slots from any class for her Preferred Spell, or only for the class(es) in which she knows the spell? (I assume the later, but the feat's text doesn't actually say anything to this effect.)
Preferred Spell (like a lot of individual features) seems to be written with straightforward builds in mind. So it's not entirely clear what happens when you turn to tricky builds.
(1) Maybe? I go both ways on this one. I'm more inclined to "Yes, you can cast domain-only Preferred spells with non-domain slots," but I'm not sure that fits well with some of what I think below ... Do you have a link to the SKR comment?
(2) No, you couldn't use slots from one class to "fuel" casting a Preferred spell with another class. Basically, the way I look at it is that a class's spell slots can only fuel casting by that class. More on that in a second.
[3] Can a Mystic Theurge with Preferred Spell spontaneously cast her Preferred Spell with the spell slots of the opposite class via Combined Spells?
(3) Short answer: Yes, I think so.
Longer answer: one of the reasons I think that a class's spell slots can as a general rule only be used by that class itself to cast spells is the Combined Spells ability: when you prepare and cast a spell from your other class, you use the casting stat, caster level, etc. of the class whose slot you're using. So that suggests to me that slot and casting class are tied very closely together. Hence my "no" to #2.
But since Combined Spells specifically lets you cast a cross-class spell, I'd think that yes, you could use Combined Spells to sacrifice a prepared slot (say, from your Cleric class) to cast one of your Wizard spells as a Cleric spell (with the standard +1 boost to the slot from Combined Spells). – For example, I'd take it that a Wizard 2 / Cleric 1 / MT 6 with Preferred Spell (Fireball) could sacrifice a 4th level Cleric spell to spontaneously cast a Fireball.
[4]Can a Mystic Theurge use Domain slots to cast non-cleric spells via Combined Spells?
[5]Can a Mystic Theurge use Combined Spells to cast domain spells with non-cleric slots?
(4) No. My general sense is that domains are pretty tightly controlled. Domain slots are for domain spells. The domain description calls them out as a separate category "one domain spell slot for each level," and the '+1' on the table reinforces their separateness. It'd just be weird, I think, if you could use a domain slot to prepare a Wizard spell when you can't even use it to prepare a non-domain Cleric spell.
(5) Yes. I think. Maybe.
[6] Do casting prestige classes give higher level domain slots to a cleric? Do they also give the higher level domain spells to put in those domain slots?
(6) Yes and yes? I think. Maybe. Basically, it wouldn't feel like +1 level of Cleric spellcasting, to me, without the domains. But I know that's not much of an argument. We really need to get some of these FAQd. If this thread goes on, maybe we can use it to refine a list of what look like the more fundamental questions in need of FAQing before launching separate threads to get clicks.
No opinions?It's a good list of questions. But it's a long one! Between the length of the list and what I suspect is growing Theurge-fatigue on the boards after a week of craziness, I'm not too surprised you didn't get much traction here. But they *are* good questions, and since you're asking I'll give my opinions.
Yeah, I was originally posting it a series of three threads, but then realized that the number of things I needed to ask was longer than that anyhow, so there wasn't much point in splitting them up. Weirdly, I was considering this build as a traditional Theurge before the recent early entry via SLA thread glut happened, but would have still had most of the questions as I don't really care for Theologian and the entire idea would be totally unviable if Cleric 5 is required to get Fireball on the divine side.
Preferred Spell (like a lot of individual features) seems to be written with straightforward builds in mind. So it's not entirely clear what happens when you turn to tricky builds.
(1) Maybe? I go both ways on this one. I'm more inclined to "Yes, you can cast domain-only Preferred spells with non-domain slots," but I'm not sure that fits well with some of what I think below ... Do you have a link to the SKR comment?
Here's the comment. I found the thread by searching "preferred spell domain" and now that I check, that comment does predate Ultimate Magic (and thus the Theologian) by about six months.
2-5 Other interpretations that I agree with
Seems fair to me, and probably the way I'd be inclined to rule as well.
Do casting prestige classes give higher level domain slots to a cleric? Do they also give the higher level domain spells to put in those domain slots?(6) Yes and yes? I think. Maybe. Basically, it wouldn't feel like +1 level of Cleric spellcasting, to me, without the domains. But I know that's not much of an argument. We really need to get some of these FAQd. If this thread goes on, maybe we can use it to refine a list of what look like the more fundamental questions in need of FAQing before launching separate threads to get clicks.
I'm really hoping that the current (needlessly heated) argument threads regarding the related Bloodline spells gets an official answer; preferably in a way that includes rulings on Mystery and Domain spells. The character will still be of interest even without early entry, so long as it'll be able to cast Fireball on both sides without having to go all the way to Cleric 5 first.
Prestige classes gain domain spells and/or arcane school spells because Domains and Arcane School are class features gained at level 1. Think of it like having an extra spell slot of each spell level that you can't use until you are able to cast spells of that level. Just like how high ability scores give you additional spell slots.
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(1) Maybe? I go both ways on this one. I'm more inclined to "Yes, you can cast domain-only Preferred spells with non-domain slots," but I'm not sure that fits well with some of what I think below ... Do you have a link to the SKR comment?Here's the comment. I found the thread by searching "preferred spell domain" and now that I check, that comment does predate Ultimate Magic (and thus the Theologian) by about six months.
Thanks for the link. SKR is definite enough that I've got to change my initial evaluation.
I'm really hoping that the current (needlessly heated) argument threads regarding the related Bloodline spells gets an official answer; preferably in a way that includes rulings on Mystery and Domain spells. The character will still be of interest even without early entry, so long as it'll be able to cast Fireball on both sides without having to go all the way to Cleric 5 first.
Yeah, that thread's a mess but it'd be nice to have an official answer on Bloodlines, Mysteries, and Domains.
For reference, I'm going to spoiler the list of questions and our current best-guess answers.
(1.a) Could a Cleric with a domain-only Preferred Spell cast it using non-domain slots? – No, because SKR says you can't.
(1.b) Could a Theologian with a domain-only Preferred Spell cast it using non-domain slots? – Yes, because using non-domain slots for domain-only spells is a feature of the Theologian and because the archetype post-dates SKR's comment.
(2) Could a Wizard / Cleric with a Wizard-only Preferred Spell cast it using Cleric slots for "fuel"? – No, because slots can only be used by the class that grants them.
(3) Could a Wizard / Cleric / Mystic Theurge (W/C/MT) with a Wizard-only Preferred Spell cast it with her Cleric class via Combined Spells? – Yes, because that's what Combined Spells does. You would still raise the level and use Wisdom as your casting stat, as is normal for Combined Spells.
(4) Could a W/C/MT use domain slots to cast Wizard spells via Combined Spells? – No, because Domain slots are strictly for Domain spells.
(5) Could a W/C/MT cast domain-only non-Wizard spells (e.g. the Travel domain's longstrider) with her Wizard class via Combined Spells? – Unclear. (Inclination: no, because of SKR's comment linked above. Domain spells are tightly controlled.)
(6) Does a W/C/MT continue to gain domain slots and domain spells as she advances in MT? – Unclear. (Weak inclination: yes, because it seems like an integral part of +1 level of Cleric spellcasting.)
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Prestige classes gain domain spells and/or arcane school spells because Domains and Arcane School are class features gained at level 1. Think of it like having an extra spell slot of each spell level that you can't use until you are able to cast spells of that level. Just like how high ability scores give you additional spell slots.As I understand it, you gain in caster level but NOT in the inherent abilities of that class (i.e. Domains and School bonus slots)...as those are tied to the original base class.
So, a Domain slot would only be granted in total cleric levels only (regardless of when you got them), MT would not add a domain slot on the higher level spells as a result.
Does anyone with more experience understand this to be otherwise?
You gain the extra domain slots at level 1. The domain class feature is gained at level 1 and does not say you have to be a certain level to gain increased effect like channel does. It merely says you have to be able to cast spells of a given level. A careful reading of the class feature reveals this:
Each domain grants a number of domain powers, dependent upon the level of the cleric, as well as a number of bonus spells. A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in her domain spell slot. Domain spells cannot be used to cast spells spontaneously.
You aren't casting Mystic Theurge spells, you are casting Cleric spells. Since you are a Cleric and are able to cast Cleric spells of a given level, then you get a domain slot for that level.
My Cyphermage in PFS gets his Arcane School slots for the same reason.
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Thanks, Robert! That's an excellent way of looking at it. I hadn't gone back and read the domain text, but I've now double-checked and I think you've nailed it. The text even is careful to distinguish Cleric-level-dependent domain powers from Cleric-spell-level-dependent domain slots and domain spells. I'll update my "Questions & Answers" text in a little bit when I'm on a real computer rather than my phone.
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Updated Questions & (Best-Guess) Answers text. This isn't the fully-elaborated set but I think most variations on the questions would be covered by implication. I'm pretty sure we're right on #5 but it's the shakiest.
(1.a) Can a Cleric with a domain-only Preferred Spell cast it using non-domain slots?
No, because SKR says you can't.(1.b) Can a Theologian with a domain-only Preferred Spell cast it using non-domain slots?
Yes, because using non-domain slots for domain-only spells is a feature of the Theologian and because the archetype post-dates SKR's comment.(2) Can a Cleric/Wizard (C/W) with a Wizard-only Preferred Spell cast it using Cleric slots for "fuel"?
No, because slots can only be used by the class that grants them.(3) Can a Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge (C/W/MT) with a Wizard-only Preferred Spell cast it with her Cleric class via Combined Spells?
Yes, because that's what Combined Spells does. You would still raise the level and use Wisdom as your casting stat, as is normal for Combined Spells.(4) Can a C/W/MT use domain slots to cast Wizard spells via Combined Spells?
No, because Domain slots are strictly for Domain spells.(5) Can a C/W/MT cast domain-only non-Wizard spells (e.g. the Travel domain's longstrider) with her Wizard class via Combined Spells?
Unclear. (Inclination: no, because of SKR's comment linked above. Domain spells are tightly controlled.)(6) Does a C/W/MT continue to gain domain slots and domain spells as she advances in MT?
Yes. The domains class feature (gained at Cleric level 1), is careful to distinguish between domain slots & spells on the one hand and domain powers on the other. Domain slots and domain spells are granted based on what level of Cleric spells you can cast while domain powers are granted based on your Cleric class level. Accordingly, domain spells and slots are advanced by "+1 level" prestige classes while domain powers are not.
I wouldn't be able to get an early access on the Cleric side using Theologian - which is part of why I'd like to not use Theologian - but I'd be willing to give up my preferred race (human) to get early access on the Arcane side. Theologian 3 / Ardmixturer 1 isn't quite as nice an entry as Admixturer 2 / Cleric 1, but it's still better than 3/3.
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I wouldn't be able to get an early access on the Cleric side using Theologian - which is part of why I'd like to not use Theologian - but I'd be willing to give up my preferred race (human) to get early access on the Arcane side. Theologian 3 / Ardmixturer 1 isn't quite as nice an entry as Admixturer 2 / Cleric 1, but it's still better than 3/3.
You could also go Admixer 3 / Theologian 1 – If you're an Aasimar (of whatever variety) you can pick up the divine spell-like ability via the Incorruptible alternate racial trait from the Advanced Race Guide.
That's an excellent idea Joe.