It's a trap! ... Isn't it?

[Byrdology]

Imp feint and rogues... I know that it sucks for the TWF rogues (which is a trap in and of itself), but what about a 2h rogue? The way I see it, you move into flank and SA, or imp feint and SA and generally have a better chance to hit against a flat foot ac. Vital strike would actually work with imp feint, because you aren't really investing in your decreased iterations anyway.

Sure you are not out damaging the Barbies and fighters, but you have more reliable dmg more often than a nova magus. And all the skills to compliment other endeavors.

Where did I go wrong in thinking that this actually might work?

[Caderyn]

It limits you to a single attack which reduces the effectiveness of Sneak attack significantly however it should hit every time, SA is 1d6/2 levels (average 3.5) per attack.

A single attack level 11 rogue gets (SA 6d6 average 21) adding in the standard (ST 22, PA +9, +2 weapon, Vital Strike)

you are hitting for 4d6 + 20 + 6d6 average is 55 damage a round

If you get 2 hits without sneak attack you would do 4d6+40 average 54 damage which is identical to your vital striking sneak attack damage.

Improved Feint + Vital strike is worth it if your not in a position to SA (and you can reliably bluff them) as the damage add from SA will generally replace your second attack at mid levels. You could certainly optimize around doing single improved feint hits when you can pull it off.

[Byrdology]

So it's not as bad as its made to be, just situational? That's kinda where I'm leaning to.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Hah! I was looking for a feat called "Imp Feint" thinking it maybe came from the same book as Cornugon Smash or Hamatula Strike.

[Joseph Bonkers]

Those impish feats... They get you every time XD
It tells you how often something gets used when people are looking at you funny and saying
"what is this now? A flying feint? whats a fient and what does it have to do with imps???"

[Wasum]

Why not just scout archetype?

[Breiti]

I poersonly do think that TWF rogues can be realy good at feinting...
Just do not take imp feint ... the route here will be:

Two-Weapon Feint
Improved Two-Weapon Feint

Past level 8th this can become realy good.

For THW rogue i surgest the scout achetype.

[Rycaut]

It is important to realize that Feint does not, in fact, cause an opponent to be flat-footed it merely denies them their DEX for your next attack. This distinction matters because otherwise feint plus the sap master chain of feats would be an amazing combo.

Sap master is still very strong but limited to builds that can either reliably act in every surprise round or builds that can impose flat footed even after the first or surprise round.

[brvheart]

That is one heck of a rogue with a 22 Str and a great sword! I cannot come up with that with WBL at 11th level. Well I can, but that puts most of his points in str rather and dex.

[brvheart]

As for the Scout archetype I am not sure I would want to give up uncanny dodge.

[Wasum]

Uncanny dodge isnt that great actually. Get a reach weapon and vital strike, power attack and furious focus and skirmish arount the battlefield. Pretty efficent and fun to play! Consider bludgeoner and sap feats for more awesomness!

[Bigdaddyjug]

brvheart wrote:

That is one heck of a rogue with a 22 Str and a great sword! I cannot come up with that with WBL at 11th level. Well I can, but that puts most of his points in str rather and dex.

That would be because a two-handed weapon using, strength-based rogue does more damage, is less feat intensive, and doesn't really suffer that much on Dex-based skills. It's not very difficult to make a rogue (or ninja, which is what I prefer), that has 18 Str, 14 Dex, and 14 (or even 16!) Cha and still gets 9 skill ranks per level. If you don't mind sacrificing a couple of skill ranks, you can even bump up your HP and will save.

Helf-elf rogue or ninja
Alternate racial trait to get elven curve blade proficiency
Str: 18 (16+2)
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 7
Wis: 12
Cha: 14

OR...

Angelkin aasimar ninja
You're two-handing a katana on this one
Str: 18 (16+2)
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 7
Wis: 12
Cha: 16 (14+2)

On either of these, you could drop Con and Wis to 10 and bump Int to 10, it just depends on whether you want the extra skills or not. I personally prefer the one with 7 Int.

[Byrdology]

Yay, nay, or maybay?

[Wasum]

is there a way to make sap master work on vital strike scout builds?

not sure whether "as if the target was flat-footed" qualifies.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Improved Feint plus Quick Draw is situational as heck, but when it all comes together, it's very sweet. You're standing there talking... whoosh, draw/feint/Sneak Attack. Very thematic if you're chaotic or otherwise a treacherous bastard.

Doug M.

[Kahn Zordlon]

Anyone read "It's a trap!" in the stalk-eyed starwars character's voice?

I tried imp feint my last character. It was ok, but like all rogue s.a. it's hard to get/takes effort. One option that I would love to explore is with a racial trait. The ratfolk get swarming. If you can get another member of your party to play a ratfolk with you, they can share the same square and be considered flanking to any opponent within range.