Sure they do. It's more crap everyone has to keep track of especially when you're casting them on others. They creates tons of "oh yeah" moments as people are remembering their buffs. Also, if you've done an attack that round you already know those buffs and swinging that sword once more is quicker than the tallying can take.
Haste is an excellent spell. I consider it a 'must have' in almost all cases. It would still be great as a 4th level spell, though it wouldn't be quite as nice. I'm not sure if I'd consider it a 'must have' as a 4th level spell or not. It would at least have some competition at that level.
Would haste still be powerful if it were single target? Absolutely. It wouldn't be the game-changing spell it is now, but it would still be significant and easily worthy of its third level slot. Make it single-target and add in a mass haste spell at higher levels. That's what I did.
I'll let Paizo know you think their encounters are not up to par.Put bluntly, if Haste is ruining all your encounters, your encounters need to be better designed.
There are some spells the game assumes you should have by a certain level. Fly is one. Haste is another.
It's a good spell. It's not gamebreaking.
Their encounters ARE balanced with Haste and Fly in mind.
However, you have 5 people. The game is designed for 4.
They're also not designed for highly optimized characters, coordinated parties, or stats higher than 20 PB.
These factors contribute much more to encounter triviality than a simple spell.
Bad guys can use haste too. That squad of orc archers just got more threatening. Always remember what the party can do you can do and vice versa. Doesn't mean antagonize them, unless its that type of game, but that you're not as limited on what you can do as you think.
How is any spell or effect that can be used by the NPCs as well as the PCs "unbalanced?"
If your boss fights are working out where the PCs are all getting full attacks every round, those shouldn't be lasting very long with or without haste.
Haste is good. In fact it's one of the "required" spells in the game. But it's only broken if you let the PCs whale away on your NPCs like batting practice.
Just to be sure, you are aware it is only an extra attack on a full attack action. No extra spells, no extra attack if you move etc....
I ask because I have never heard of Haste being called broken...it makes me wonder.
As to how to fix it, high AC, mirror image, slow spell, invisibility, and any of a hundred other things can really slow down extra attacks. He'll even just moving will do it sometimes.
Generally it is making the boss encounters way, way too simple. It is a group of 5 (instead of 4), so I usually max out the encounters HP. When you have a pally with smite evil, a 2h fighter, a negative energy cleric, a archer inquisitor and a arcane archer - extended haste hurts a ton.
Even when they screw up and fight everything at once (13 bobos, and the boss) they still blow through it without even needing a heal. Pally running in with 3 attacks, cleave. Archers just targeting different things... stuff falls - and it falls quickly.
Here is your problem. This isnt the party an adventure path expects. Period. Paizos APs are written for an un-optimized group of 4 15 point buy characters. One of them hits stuff. One of them kinds of hits stuff and casts divine spells. One of them kind of hits stuff and can deal with skills, and one of them is the wizard. Thats the party the AP and the game (by Jason Bulmans admission) expects, fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue.
You dont have that. You have 4 guys that hit stuff really well and 1 that is blasting with neagitve energy and probably hits stuff sort of well when he's out of channels. Your party does WAY more damage then the base assumption without haste. And the fact that you have so many combatants in the party means that it makes a bigger impact then 'normal'.
I am not saying that your party is wrong, or you are having wrong bad fun. But as a dm you need to understand that party makeup makes a difference. You shouldnt be maxing hp, you should double up on every monster in every encounter including 'bosses'. As a dm you have to understand when your party is deviating from the 'norm' when using adventure paths and adjust. Your party is way off the norm, ofcourse haste is going to be problematic. Any mass combat buff would be amplified by this party (like if you had a bard in there) then it would in the 'normal' party of fighter wizard cleric rogue.
Haste is not just good, it's above the curve.
Would you still cast Haste if it only let the affected make one extra attack as part of a full attack action, using its highest base attack bonus w/o the buff to hit/speed/reflex/AC?
I would.
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When you have a pally with smite evil, a 2h fighter, a negative energy cleric, a archer inquisitor and a arcane archer
Bwah... Yeah that party is going to adore Haste a bit more then the usual party I'd imagine. 2 archer focused characters with likely high DPS melee backing them up and a AOE burst cleric who likely can also backup as a 3rd melee/ranged if need be? Yeowza.
I'd suggest discussing it with your party it is probably a bit of overkill for them. You deserve to have fun too after all, it is a game everyone is playing together so you friends should be understanding that one particular thing is making it a bit too unbalanced towards them.
You deserve to have fun too after all, it is a game everyone is playing together so you friends should be understanding that one particular thing is making it a bit too unbalanced towards them.
I don't get it. The GM is supposed to have fun by doing combat damage to the PC?
It's not broken, you broke it.
That's what happens when you try to "fix" something that's just fine.
I find it interesting that there is so much negative discussion about haste, but relatively nothing but its sister, slow. Slow is possibly one of the most crippling debuffs away for the same reason that haste is so powerful; it allows players to directly tinker with the Action Economy.
For those of you who don't know, the Action Economy is the comparison between the number of actions that the player's side can take when compared to the number of actions the GM's encounter takes. The sad truth of the matter is that an overwhelming majority of GMs design their encounters around one or two powerful foes. Even when these creatures have pages of special abilities and ludicrous defenses, however, they are at a disadvantage against the PCs because the PCs get to take many more actions during a single round. This is before we start discussing the fact that CR as a system automatically places the PCs at an advantage anyway; the system is designed with the assumption that the PCs will win, and the factor that determines how hard an encounter is rated is literally measured by how much of the party's resources are expended. And let's not forget that most of the time, your party is going to save haste for encounters that they perceive to be difficult in the first place. I don't consider any of these things problems, but they aren't a bad thing, of course, but its something to keep in mind when you complain about any option in the game.
So, yup. I don't think there is a problem with haste. I think that the OP (and many other GMs in this thread) are designing predictable campaigns where there is an obvious time to, "pop Bloodlust," so to speak. This isn't a sign of bad GMing nor is it a sign of Munchkin players; when you throw a dragon at your players, they're going to respond with the big guns, of which haste is among the biggest. In contrast, virtually none of the posts that are complaining about this spell reference that time when a group of PCs used haste to annihilate a goblin raid; complaints are had when haste is used to destroy "Boss Monsters," and the concept of a Final Fantasy-style Boss Monster does not work in Pathfinder.
Instead of complaining about haste, I recommend investing some time in learning the mathematics behind the game; the Lord knows that the most optimized players use Math as their greatest weapon, and Math is literally the Grid that allows you entire game to function. Going into Pathfinder completely ignorant of the Math that makes it work is like trying to become a novelist without having a firm grasp of the inner works of plot such as rising action, climax, or conclusion. Sure, you might be able to pull out something special once and a while, but if you understand the field that the game is being played on, you can produce a much better product.
How is any spell or effect that can be used by the NPCs as well as the PCs "unbalanced?"
That's really missing the point. The balance that's important for spell design isn't Player vs DM balance (which really souldn't even be a thing), but spell vs spell balance. If one spell is just by far the best option in a given set, it reduces meaningful player options, and just becomes that boring spell that everyone pretty much has to take for full effectiveness.
I'm not necesarily saying that's the case, but it's a more important consideration than making players too powerful for DMs.
How is any spell or effect that can be used by the NPCs as well as the PCs "unbalanced?"That's really missing the point. The balance that's important for spell design isn't Player vs DM balance (which really souldn't even be a thing), but spell vs spell balance. If one spell is just by far the best option in a given set, it reduces meaningful player options, and just becomes that boring spell that everyone pretty much has to take for full effectiveness.
I'm not necesarily saying that's the case, but it's a more important consideration than making players too powerful for DMs.
Other spells that are just as worth taking (or more) for 3rd level:
Dispel Magic
Stinking Cloud
Spiked Pit
Summon Monster III
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Hold Person
Suggestion
Fireball
Displacement
Blink
Fly
Slow
Shrink Item
Water Breathing
And that's just from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
How is any spell or effect that can be used by the NPCs as well as the PCs "unbalanced?"That's really missing the point. The balance that's important for spell design isn't Player vs DM balance (which really souldn't even be a thing), but spell vs spell balance. If one spell is just by far the best option in a given set, it reduces meaningful player options, and just becomes that boring spell that everyone pretty much has to take for full effectiveness.
I'm not necesarily saying that's the case, but it's a more important consideration than making players too powerful for DMs.
Other spells that are just as worth taking (or more) for 3rd level:
Dispel Magic
Stinking Cloud
Spiked Pit
Summon Monster III
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Hold Person
Suggestion
Fireball
Displacement
Blink
Fly
Slow
Shrink Item
Water BreathingAnd that's just from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
Very true; 3rd Level is one of the all-star spell levels.
It really, really is. *looks longingly at her single 3rd-level spell-known slot*
Stinking cloud is pretty much the best 3rd level Wizard spell. It prevents enemies from attacking, provides cover, and as long as it persists, requires a save every turn to avoid. I used to play a ton of Pool of Radiance back in the day; I came to the conclusion that basically you want one fireball, then all the Stinking Cloud you can get.
Instead of complaining about haste, I recommend investing some time in learning the mathematics behind the game; the Lord knows that the most optimized players use Math as their greatest weapon, and Math is literally the Grid that allows you entire game to function. Going into Pathfinder completely ignorant of the Math that makes it work is like trying to become a novelist without having a firm grasp of the inner works of plot such as rising action, climax, or conclusion. Sure, you might be able to pull out something special once and a while, but if you understand the field that the game is being played on, you can produce a much better product.
My thoughts exactly. Thank you for writing this, thereby removing my itching urge to do it myself. :-)
IMO, having a DM who knows his munchkinery (the math) makes the game a lot more fun, for all involved. But a DM suffering from LSM can easily ruin an otherwise great campaign, typically by not being able to identify the party's true mechanical strengths and weaknesses and balance combat opposition accordingly.
Nerfing haste won't make it easier for the OP to challenge the party, but increased system mastery probably will. Oh, and not ever following the official guidelines on encounter CR again...
Fun fact: with my sorcerer in Kingmaker I started casting haste by GM request, to not steal the thunder from otger chars with meta'ed fireballs
I'm not judging your decision, just curious (I honestly don't care what people decide to do at their table as long as all involved parties agree).
Mark Aksel, this may have already been asked, but do your NPCs not use slow?
Further, with your modifications to haste, are you going to make them to the slow spell, as well?
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Well, obviously, you make the caster age every time he casts it. ;)
In seriousness, based on what Mark Askel has said, I can only suggests he improves his tactics. I know he doesn't like that suggestion, but while haste is slightly strong for its level -- although not so much if the caster is casting it extended and thus casting it as a 4th level spell rather than a 3rd level one -- I cannot see based on his posts how it can be gamebreaking. I've been GMing 3.5 and now Pathfinder for 7-8 years and even though my GM tactics leave a lot to be desired, I've seldom struggled with it.
So, my genuine, truly wishing to help advice is:
- Make sure you use lots of enemies, even big bad fights should have some mooks to help block people and slow people down
- Use haste on your enemies -- if your party's high enough APL to be using extended haste (an effective 4th level spell) in every fight before resting, then your enemies are high CR enough to be having potions of haste in their gear if they can't otherwise cast the spell--make sure you're giving them that treasure they're supposed to have and use it! What goes around comes around.
- Have suitable enemies cast slow on the party. Instantly negates the effect.
- Use other debuffs on the party -- haste only gives a +1 bonus to some things, there are a lot of debuffs that penalize AC, saves, etc. far more than that.
- Keep your PCs on the move. Have some enemies withdraw and/or find other ways to move around so that they can't get that full attack off (and thus do not get the extra attack)
- Use difficult terrain, grease, web, and other hindering effects which keep the party from getting the most out of their extra movement and/or make them fall down or entangled where the spell isn't even going to help them. Spells/effects like solid fog are awesome because not only does it slow the PCs down, it also hinders visibility, which means that they can't find the foe that has slipped away from them, and really hinders your ranged attackers.
Again, the intent of this is to provide genuine, useful advice how to keep haste from frustrating you as a GM. If you feel I have been patronizing or unhelpful, that was not my intention.
If you would actually prefer me to NOT try to help or offer useful advice, here, I WILL be patronizing and unhelpful now, in case that makes things better:
Yes, haste is terrible and ruins everything! You're absolutely right about everything and the spell should be banned!
Please take that as the joke it was intended. Otherwise, I wish you the best of luck.
In a straight PF game, I run haste as written.
In Kirthfinder, the martials get move-and-attack, status-inflicting melee attacks, and a whole slew of other things, so I (with regret) nerfed haste to affect only 1 creature when using those rules only.
Again, it's a very nice spell as-is, for straight PF.
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In a straight PF game, I run haste as written.
In Kirthfinder, the martials get move-and-attack, status-inflicting melee attacks, and a whole slew of other things, so I (with regret) nerfed haste to affect only 1 creature when using those rules only.
Again, it's a very nice spell as-is, for straight PF.
Kirth, I sometimes feel like you and I run the most RAW RAW games, precisely because we houserule so much elsewhere.
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The problem here isn't with the spell itself. It's with the party. This party makeup you described makes maximum use of Haste.
This is no different than a Fireball used on a group of 30 monsters vs a fireball used on 1. Your heavy melee/archery group is perfectly setup to maximize hastes potential.
With the group you have, Haste SHOULD be the number one option to cast. Put in a more typical group of Fighter/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue and suddenly haste becomes a secondary or even tertiary option.
Changing group haste to a 6th level spell to me makes it worthless for the typical group. I'd save my 6th level spells and single target the Fighter instead.
Your solution makes the spell un-usable IMO.
Its a spell that requires at least 2 actions to be of much use.
1It's moderate help for casters and is next to worthless for monks.
A what ? worth less for monk Monk have evasion and it +1 to reflexs saves, monk have low AC and it is +1 to AC, Touch, and Flat footed, CMD, Monk use CMB and it +1 those, Monks furry +1 to hit and one extra Attack, Monk have good movement 40ft or 50ft with haste they have insane movement of 70ft or 80ft. That 140ft or 160ft charge... or 280ft run to 320ft run.
monks movement doesn't stack with haste, that's actually one of the complaints about them.