Goblin Squad Member
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Seems like all crafting, be it settlement building, refining, enchantment whatever enforces a level a locality in the fact you have to go back to the place you commissioned it to pick it up. I imagine the payment for working on a construction is the same, you have to go back physically to get paid.
Who knows maybe there is even a window after completion you can get paid in before the gold goes poof. At the very least of the building gets torn down by warfare and you haven't collected you are screwed.
But I can't say I like the idea of "clocking in". Like you can't go dungeoneering or PVP because you have to clock in. Or you need to log in every day for a week so you can clock in.
Quandary: Would your major objection be resolved if a character stopped contributing to a construction project if they traveled more than one hex (or some other specified distance) from the project?
That would be one means to localize things, yes, I in fact mentioned having the labor contribution smoothly scale based on your average distance from the construction site. That even makes it competitive for a low-skill character who can stay nearby to work on a job vs. a high-skill character who wants to 'work' on it from far away, and Settlments could kick off workers who don't contribute enough work. Assuming something like that, with a hard cut-off to zero contribution or not, it incentivizes workers to return to the site when they log-off. If you can't/won't do that, then your labor won't be efficient or possibly even work at all.
But I can't say I like the idea of "clocking in". Like you can't go dungeoneering or PVP because you have to clock in. Or you need to log in every day for a week so you can clock in.
The idea of "clocking in" was not meant to be an exclusive dedication of your in-game time, the construction concept was from the beginning a 'background' activity which didn't conflict with on-screen activity for the most part, and I never suggested changing that. Perhaps the normal implications of "clock in" make that term misleading, "check in" might be more what I meant... If a construction takes 2 weeks to complete, you would just need to return periodically to continue working on it, but you would be able to do other things with most of your game playing time (only signifigant travel distance would create a crimp on things, especially if you are expected by your settlement to be available for defense/offensive wars around your own settlement or elsewhere). Obviously if buildings can complete construction as quickly as a normal crafting event there is no difference between them if you just need to be present to start the construction job, but the longer the construction job the more distortion is made.
Whether with a specific "clock in"/"check in" or a distance-scaling/cut-off mechanism, it would be ideal to return periodically to the site, perhaps when you log out so that you benefit from being "on the clock" (or being at optimal work efficiency) when you are logged out.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think 'smoothly scaling' is excessive, but dropping off in two or three steps is doable and easy; the first step should be small enough to allow someone to play without impacting their construction, but put some serious limitations on them; "one hex" was based on the default settlement owning seven hexes; so long as you were within that settlement's claimed lands, you would contribute at full effectiveness.
In fact, that might be the best way: If you are within the settlement's controlled territory, contribute at full effectiveness. If you are in unclaimed territory, contribute at reduced effectiveness. If you are in territory controlled by a different settlement, contribute at vastly reduced effectiveness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Obviously if buildings can complete construction as quickly as a normal crafting event there is no difference between them if you just need to be present to start the construction job, but the longer the construction job the more distortion is made.
Ok, yeah that could work. I have no problem with "extra hoops" for the very top tier crafting/jobs.
On the whole though, I like the concept of a trader that travels from points A, B, C routinely. He leaves jobs working at point A and travels to point B with stuff he picked up. He then leaves jobs working at point B and then travels to the other side of the map, point C. He trades at point C, leaves jobs working and then moves his way back to point A to pick up the jobs he left working. Rinse, wash, repeat and mixing in new points always with a mind at what can be acquired, what can be crafted and what is needed at each point.
That sounds like more fun than being chained to a settlement waiting for you stuff to bake.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Here's what will happen with a system where your physical presence is required. People who are "serious" about crafting will never notice this system, because they aren't going anywhere anyway. People who are "curious" about crafting will either become serious, or realize quickly that they're so much less efficient than the serious crafters when they go elsewhere to have fun that they'll quit doing it.
In other words, it is a system that has no real in-game effect eccept to gate crafting to people willing and able to make characters who sit wherever the crafting job happens.
On the whole though, I like the concept of a trader that travels from points A, B, C routinely.
Definitely, there's no reason you can't make all the 'commute times' work for you, doing something productive all the time. And of course, that promotes that you find other economic opportunities at the site of the construction job (or along the way), tieing your home region to the site of your labor.
I think it would also be interesting if there was some other incentive for you to at least log out within your own settlement (or the sponsoring settlement of your charter company, if not an official settlement member). That then makes it more of a trade-off for construction workers to log-out at the site of a construction job not at their settlement, and makes it so that players who choose NOT to be construction workers in the background have a countervailing advantage which balances things out. It also makes it relatively more advantageous to use local settlement members for construction jobs, since they could receive both benefits.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Here's what will happen with a system where your physical presence is required. People who are "serious" about crafting will never notice this system, because they aren't going anywhere anyway. People who are "curious" about crafting will either become serious, or realize quickly that they're so much less efficient than the serious crafters when they go elsewhere to have fun that they'll quit doing it.
In other words, it is a system that has no real in-game effect eccept to gate crafting to people willing and able to make characters who sit wherever the crafting job happens.
Would you consider it a problem if the construction business was dominated by a player or players who moved characters around to the next project, and signed on as soon as the last project was completed? Shouldn't it be harder to get workers to build at remote sites than at central sites?
Crafting items is already going to occur at the location; the cost to the crafter is getting the materials and products to and from that location; I'm asking only about the labor portion of building construction.
Or am I reading it wrong, and PCs will not be able or required to contribute labor to the construction of buildings, only management skills?
Here's what will happen with a system where your physical presence is required. People who are "serious" about crafting will never notice this system, because they aren't going anywhere anyway. People who are "curious" about crafting will either become serious, or realize quickly that they're so much less efficient than the serious crafters when they go elsewhere to have fun that they'll quit doing it.
In other words, it is a system that has no real in-game effect eccept to gate crafting to people willing and able to make characters who sit wherever the crafting job happens.
I'm not sure if you're mixing up references to crafting and construction or what?
I am missing how there is "no real in-game effect" when more local low-skill characters might have varying competitiveness vs. more distant high-skill characters, or how it might make it impossible for a 'global' de-localized labor market to function while enabling 'regional neighbors' to effectively participate?What I wrote never envisioned requiring continual presence at all, but just periodic presence. (for which I suggested periods of 6hrs, 8hrs, 1 day)
Which means you can be doing whatever else you want for the duration of that period, after you "check in". (discretely, automatically, whatever)
Depending on the length of the check-in period, it could very well promote 'work shifts' covered by different characters.
(which itself creates a niche for players located in different time zones)
Clearly, construction projects are supposed to take longer than normal crafting, and it's unreasonable to require characters be continuously present during that time. But periodic check-ins or distance scaling don't require that, they leave characters largely free to do whatever they want. A small 'commute' (so as to LOG-OUT at the construction site) isn't overly prohibitive and is compatable with and promotes regional economic ties, long commutes thru hostile terrain are a different matter. That dynamic applies even more tightly to all the other localized economic activities in-game (everything), so what is the motive for making an exception here?
Is there a specific reason/intent for creating a non-localized (space/time) economic sub-system when the rest of the game is so strongly tied to localization?
What happened to player skill affecting time of construction?
The paradigm of Common Folk doing grunt work directed by skilled players, or skilled players covering key roles (according to player's prefernce in visualization) isn't really the issue here, Crafting which also has that dynamic is localized.
I do think an actual 'check in' has signifigant advantages vs. distance scaling (continuous or not),
it keeps the granularity low as to distinguishing between valid/efficient workers as long as you can meet the minimum check in periods,
that prevents 'tying' construction workers to adjacent hexes if they want to work at the highest efficiency.
(you would always return to the exact site when you log out, but it makes a difference while you are logged in and playing)
The 'check in' should be automatic, i.e. if you are signed up for the job your presence nearby is enough to count,
and only when you LEAVE the area is a flag raised "Not Checking In" which institutes a timer count-down (6hrs, 8hrs, etc)
which when it completes will remove you from the list of active workers.
That means nobody has to worry about lining up gameplay time with a fixed "check in" schedule,
and they will get the benefit of construction labor for the 6hrs/etc following the last time they were present,
if you can only play for 2 hours you get to count that 2 hours towards the construction work (assuming you start play at the site),
and if you log out at the site you will count as working for 6 hours more
(otherwise you would just run out the remainder of the time period, e.g. 4 hours more if it is a 6 hour work period)
A periodic 'check in' leaves you totally free in the interim period, but you must return if you want to continue to count as working for the next period. If you don't return every period, no big deal, you can sign up later... A character who ALWAYS returns to 'check in' (and logs out there) could be working EVERY work period (8hrs etc), if you miss some, you might get 2/3 periods... Not THAT overwhelming of a difference, considering that construction jobs already have a minimum worker skill rating, meaning that non-local workers will likely be REQUIRED to complete jobs with any approximation of urgency, but also meaning that out-of-the-way jobs where the workers aren't always 'checked in' for ever period (logging out at the site) will probably take longer. That could also mean that out-of-the-way sites (that can't source sufficient local high-skill workers) may need to pay high-skill workers a premium (vs. convenient locations) to cover their commute, hassle of logging out at the site, etc. Sound pretty reasonable to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So there's going to be specialist builders who skill train nothing else and are essential to settlements - and part-time builders who can earn a bit of cash on the side and augment building aggregate by doing some skill-training in building?
I'm happy to do the latter: Not sure I'd want a char exclusively building though sounds sure-fire money-maker.
BTW, I realized that the discussion on locality in construction work could lead to the impression that such an approach would mean you MUST commute long distances or stay in the vicinity of (log out at) a distant job if a suitable job isn't near by.
That isn't really the case... There certainly is SOME motivation to pursue jobs that are the most optimal given your skill level, i.e. you exactly fulfill the minimum rank for that higher-level job... But you are also free to accept 'sub-optimal' (below your skill rating) jobs because other factors make them optimal for you in the moment.
In fact, having a dynamic where that happens fairly often just makes sense given the system for determining your profit from construction jobs based on your skill/how much work you do, where the only difference of skill amongst workers will be from characters who EXCEED the minimum skill requirements. Those characters could almost certainly get a better pay rate per unit of work at a higher minimum-skill rating construction job. But locality means they may have a reason to accept a lower tier job.
This is similar to the locality dynamic for other activities in the game, i.e. a merchant COULD travel far and wide to get the best price for their goods, OR they can just stay in the local region and sell it for less, but not spend as much time going out of their way. If your settlement is involved in a war and needs you nearby, you probably won't want to travel far and wide for opportunities like these, but will settle for nearby opportunities. So if you find yourself travelling far and wide, there's no reason you couldn't work on any construction sites you come across (selecting the best options, presumably), even if you don't stay long enough to complete the job (which may involve logging out in the same location for several days or weeks) you should generally be able to be working on SOME site.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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When you're associated with a building--as a manager, worker, crafter, or refiner--we're assuming you're working there in "downtime." That concept is deliberately nebulous.
There will likely be some players for whom their skills are a total sideline. They may be attached as working at a building in or near their home settlement, even though they spend a ton of their time ranging far and wide and don't even log out in their home settlement very often. Some nights they may log out on the other side of the map from home, and we'll still count them as working there the same as someone else that always logs out within a block of the building. If they're owed coin or materials for their effort, they pick them up when they swing through town. This is fun for them.
There will be others that play mostly around town and have a few different skills that make them useful for various projects. They may switch up their association based on whatever's the most profitable for them at the time, and keep an eye on it (e.g., normally work at a particular inn, but switch to construction helper when a new building is going up). They do a lot of adventuring stuff in the area, so they're able to swing back through town regularly to see if there's something better they could be doing with their time, and they're going to "clock in" based on their own agency. This is fun for them.
There will be still others that play almost entirely in town and are dedicated skill-based characters. They maintain multiple crafting queues and potentially still work a side job. They spend most of their playtime optimizing their queues, shuffling item outputs to market, and tracking down materials they need to fill the queues back up with useful projects. They may only leave town when they think it's worth their time to move items to or from a distant source themselves. They'll be practically clocked in all the time. This is fun for them.
Between thinking of "downtime" in a very abstract way and the assumption that a lot of the output of skills can be visualized as you managing NPCs, we have a lot of flexibility on tailoring what counts as "present" to whatever you find the most fun. There will be benefits to focusing strongly or even completely on your skills over someone that just treats them as a sideline, but the guy that treats them as a sideline is not feeling like he's required to do a lot of logistics work to get any benefit out of his skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks for the extra description Stephen.
It does seem a settlement will have strong demand for professional builders to ensure the settlement grows and provides more services "faster and bigger and better". I could see groups coughing up cash to put into the settlement kitty to ensure a few people have extra chars on their a/c's buiding stuff full-time for the community: Possibly then leading to being paid for by subsequent settlement's collective profits to upkeep them?! Maybe such players will have high influence on the running of the settlement, owning such characters?
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Goblin Squad Member
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When you're associated with a building--as a manager, worker, crafter, or refiner--we're assuming you're working there in "downtime."
Will it make a difference if one character has more or less "downtime" than another?
For example, if I play 60 hours a week, leaving 108 hours of "downtime", and someone else plays for 8 hours a week, leaving 160 hours of "downtime", will we both contribute the same towards any buildings we're associated with (ceteris paribus)?
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Except for certain long-term buffs and debuffs that are directly relevant to active play and we don't want expiring while you're offline, most time-based systems don't discriminate based on whether you're logged in or logged out. You get the same XP whether or not you're logged in, and your jobs progress at the same speed no matter your online status.
As mentioned in the previous post, there will likely be rewards for paying attention to your jobs such as being able to queue up more projects when you're getting close to finished or switching your job to something more lucrative when it presents itself. So the guy that's online a lot will have an advantage there. But someone who's only on a few hours a week could potentially do just as well if those few hours include regular check-ins to run around town and optimize jobs.
Ultimately, we don't want you to be at a serious disadvantage because you can't play as often as someone else but, conversely, we don't want to create any systems that would encourage you to play the game as little as possible (as equating downtime to actually logged out time would do).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ultimately, we don't want you to be at a serious disadvantage because you can't play as often as someone else but, conversely, we don't want to create any systems that would encourage you to play the game as little as possible (as equating downtime to actually logged out time would do).
I'll bet one Goblin Ball that is what Nihimon was looking for!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ultimately, we don't want you to be at a serious disadvantage because you can't play as often as someone else but, conversely, we don't want to create any systems that would encourage you to play the game as little as possible (as equating downtime to actually logged out time would do).I'll bet one Goblin Ball that is what Nihimon was looking for!
You bet your left Goblin ball? :p
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Goblin Squad Member
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A thought just came to mind. You can have settlement management skills, including those that make you more efficient at these construction queues, and not be a member of a settlement.
To me this opens the door to construction contracts and venture companies focused on providing that service. Will this be possible?
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Goblin Squad Member
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A thought just came to mind. You can have settlement management skills, including those that make you more efficient at these construction queues, and not be a member of a settlement.
To me this opens the door to construction contracts and venture companies focused on providing that service. Will this be possible?
I've certainly gotten that impression.
Requesting a building construction causes a job to be posted on the settlement job board... A settlement may restrict job access to members.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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We're creating a lot of systems for settlements where you can choose to open your town up to non-member players (e.g., selling them training, renting them storage, charging them for using your crafting facilities and markets, paying them to use skills your members don't have on your behalf, etc.). We hope that a lot of settlements will see this as a sufficient advantage to become more open to visitors. But there will probably also be perceived security advantages from being more insular, so we don't know how many settlements will actually allow guests.
@ Stephan Cheney Acheron will be open to guests and trade. If some non members could sell skills that We do not possess it will be very welcome.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Anathema, I imagine Acheron's commitment to providing a home to Chaotic Evil players will result in your willingness to accept pretty much anyone as a Member or a Guest just to get anything done.
I think The Seventh Veil will also be very open in our Settlements, or at least our first. We've already discussed our desire to be a training hub. Our commitment to Freedom probably requires that we be very open as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We're creating a lot of systems for settlements where you can choose to open your town up to non-member players (e.g., selling them training, renting them storage, charging them for using your crafting facilities and markets, paying them to use skills your members don't have on your behalf, etc.).
Lol, when I read this I thought, "and if they default on their rent..."
Storage Wars: The River Kingdoms!
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Goblin Squad Member
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We're creating a lot of systems for settlements where you can choose to open your town up to non-member players (e.g., selling them training, renting them storage, charging them for using your crafting facilities and markets, paying them to use skills your members don't have on your behalf, etc.).Lol, when I read this I thought, "and if they default on their rent..."
Storage Wars: The River Kingdoms!
Finally, a version I could stand to watch.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another benefit I see in having an open settlement is that it can be used as a trial membership period for perspective new members. With an open settlement the charter company see pcs and how they are in game and for prospective member to test the water of a charter company before they sign the charter on the dotted line.
I for one would like to see how a charter company act in game over the way they present themselves on forums. I have found in the past just having a charismatic presence on forum does not mean the company/guild will be someone that you wish to be with in game.
As a person who will be on the crafting side of the fence I would love to be helping those who need help with their settlement and if I find one I really feel comfortable with and they like how I work I'm sure we each an arrangement about becoming a citizen over a visitor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've already presented myself as a somewhat elitist player, surrounding myself with other like-minded individuals. I'm not sure how much more honest you can get. ;)
As I suspect we'll end up closing our doors at some point (though this will be up for vote), I would like to know if there will be a whitelist for players, like guests or ambassadors. Likewise a blacklist for undesirables where open settlements are concerned.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Games as old as UO had ban lists for player houses so you could keep out specific characters if they proved to be that much of a problem. I shouldn't think it would be too difficult for settlements to have the same power in PFO, though how it's implemented is the question. In UO, the person was completely blocked from walking through the door. In PFO, should they be magically banned or just marked KOS by the settlement NPC guards so that the troublesome character still has a chance to sneak in with stealth, invisibility, or perhaps even a disguise kit? I suppose it depends on how serious you are about keeping some people out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In PFO, should they be magically banned or just marked KOS by the settlement NPC guards so that the troublesome character still has a chance to sneak in with stealth, invisibility, or perhaps even a disguise kit?
I would truly hate to see any kind of mechanical measures in place that prevented people from going anywhere they have the skill and character development to otherwise go.
As far as I am concerned, option 2 is the only reasonable suggestion between those given.