Goblin Squad Member
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So in every game, unless rogues are done horribly wrong, they are accused of being an OP class.
So what causes this? Well the signature ability of rogues is in almost every game. In Pathfinder it's called sneak attack, and I think we can all agree it's an ability so iconic to rogues it needs to be in the game.
A very common combat build for rogues is to specialize in making a strong opening attack that either does tons of damage or slaps some very nasty debuffs on to foes allowing the rogue to quickly dispatch the target rather than have a longer fight, which generally wouldn't go well for the rogue.
What you will quickly see pop up on the forums is threads saying rogues can kill people way too quickly with neat little breakdowns of how many seconds it takes to kill someone using the rogue's abilities. If it's like most games the exsample target will be an unbuffed min-maxed glass cannon sorcerer.
Where these breakdowns go wrong is that they presume combat begins when the rogue makes their first attack.
For those who play rogues, we know where the fight really starts. It starts when you begin attempting to get to the position to makes that attack. This can require a good deal of cunning, patience, and no small amount of luck. If a rogue who specializes in this type of combat fails to get the drop on their target and end up in a fair fight, they generally won't last long, because rogues don't fight fair. We aren't paladins.
You combat this by having a high perception and not letting down your guard. Sometimes you will get caught unaware and die, and in that case the appropriate response is to tip your hat and move on with life.
Just wanted to get some awareness of this issue out there before the passions of "But I died really fast... and I hate dying!!!" become involved.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure rogues will be viewed as OPed in PFO as they are in other games, as I doubt sneak attack will simply add raw damage to their attack. Given it has been stated that GW wants fights to last longer and involve more tactics and strategy and less button mashing, I imagine sneak attack will add some base damage and a debuff or other modifier to the target. This will work well if you're the sort of person that works in a team and design your team to take advantage of such effects/modifiers.
As an aside, I always find it ironic that rogues get called OP because they can sneak attack someone and half kill them, when a mage type can do the same thing from half a mile away. It all comes down to the 'from the shadows' part. People can't see the attack coming, thus they deem it OP.
Sure, there have been examples of OP rogues in games (stun locking in WoW), but on the whole they're no different from other classes other than the fact you cannot see the attack coming (with the naked eye).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well sounds more like elite ninja assassin nemesis class to me than "rogue": Who strikes first and strikes hard enough may not have to strike again?
Hopefully that will be the preserve of the evil assassin.
As for rogue, I'm intrigued what they can do, perhaps better at disengaging straight melee combat x1 every so often skill as well as detect traps? Presume different weapon sets too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In most MMOsm rogues are all about stealth and high (front-loaded) DPS.
In Pathfinder, the rogue is more about utility, mobility and (non-combat) options.
In many MMOs, the easiest target for a rogue is another rogue, the rogue is also the easiest target for many other classes. The one big advantage of the rogue is a higher chance of picking their fights.
For the record, pathfinder rogue is generally accused of being a very underpowered class.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, the play-style of the rogue/thief/assassin CLASS in most mmorpgs I've seen is:
DPS
Movement
Stealth
Solo sneaking in pvp
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Which is actually incredibly fun compared to the other classes who are often straight-jacketed into very narrow roles.
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Here's the description of pathfinder rogues:
Life is an endless adventure for those who live by their wits. Ever just one step ahead of danger, rogues bank on their cunning, skill, and charm to bend fate to their favor. Never knowing what to expect, they prepare for everything, becoming masters of a wide variety of skills, training themselves to be adept manipulators, agile acrobats, shadowy stalkers, or masters of any of dozens of other professions or talents. Thieves and gamblers, fast talkers and diplomats, bandits and bounty hunters, and explorers and investigators all might be considered rogues, as well as countless other professions that rely upon wits, prowess, or luck. Although many rogues favor cities and the innumerable opportunities of civilization, some embrace lives on the road, journeying far, meeting exotic people, and facing fantastic danger in pursuit of equally fantastic riches. In the end, any who desire to shape their fates and live life on their own terms might come to be called rogues.
Role: Rogues excel at moving about unseen and catching foes unaware, and tend to avoid head-to-head combat. Their varied skills and abilities allow them to be highly versatile, with great variations in expertise existing between different rogues. Most, however, excel in overcoming hindrances of all types, from unlocking doors and disarming traps to outwitting magical hazards and conning dull-witted opponents.
Sounds like they are more about situational combat and info gathering and versatile and escaping or surprising. Also to note is mention of bandit/brigand, bounty-hunter and diplomat paths.
Makes me wonder if these archetypes are sort of really actually about feeders into economical roles - which sounds like a step up from most mmorpgs where you train the skills and then never have the actual job for those skills to exercise proficiently except pvp or doing a narrative quest. Ie bandits will need escape dodge fast skills, diplomats will need charm and gift of the gab skills and bounty-hunters will need tracking and perception skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Like every class in Pathfinder, what a rogue is about, revolves entirely around their build.
I'm talking about rogues who focus on quickly dispatching targets by surprising them and getting off a sneak attack that either does a ton of damage, or gimps them enough to let the rogue tear them apart.
There are a lot of non-alignment restricted ways to pull that off in Pathfinder.
If you read the rogue's class features you will see sneak attack is a core ability of rogues that enhances damage and can have debuffs added to it. Infact I would say it's thee core ability of rogues. I mean look at their 20th level ability. I don't expect to see that ability (or at least a version of it which is that powerful) in this game, but it does highlight how central that ability is to the rogue class.
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The problem in 'Most MMO's' as you put it isn't even the front loaded damage. It's the fact that, played correctly, a rogue can get off his initial attack combo, activate some combination of abilities that usually CC's and restealth them and move away to do it all over again a few seconds later at almost no risk to them.
A rogue, attacking from surprise SHOULD do a large portion of the enemies health! the problem comes when they can do it several times in rapid succession, by combining CC and 'Hide in Plain Sight' stealth abilities - essentially invisibility. At will. Multiple times in a row. Sure, they may only be able to do it every 2 or 3 minutes, but that doesn't make it any less frustrating to the person who just got stunlock comboed to death and never even had a chance to react. I'd rather see rogues be tougher combatants up front, maybe from some sort of dodge/evasion ability than allow them to just be able to point at anyone not in the best armor in the game and say, 'I choose you, squishy mage/priest/archer/whatever!' and proceed to destroy them with no chance of a response.
The front loaded damage is really only a problem in combination with the CC AND the stealth. If rogues have something similar to what they can do in tabletop, I think it will be fine. i.e. greater damage situationally. As long as they do subpar damage in a straight up fight, only gaining the increased damage when attacking from surprise(i.e. vs. flatfooted foes) or from behind(i.e. flanked foes) then I am fine with that.
My worry is that even if GW doesn't give rogues any CC(they NEED to give them stealth - it's not a rogue w/o stealth!) - which they really shouldn't, BTW - they'll just be able to take a splash from other classes and voila! CC instadeath stunlock combos, HERE WE COME!
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Goblin Squad Member
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When I play a Rogue in PnP the Sneak Attack is almost an added extra. My big love for the rogue is all those skill points and class skills, but I am a skills-led player and I know that isn't universal.
It is nice to have (say) a Rogue archer or dagger specialist who can significantly add to the party's fighting potential, but fighting is the job of Fighters, Rangers and Barbarians, and the Rogue is a handy extra. A Rogue's Sneak Attack fighting ability is nice to have, but I certainly don't see it as the primary Rogue class ability.
When I play a Rogue in PnP the Sneak Attack is almost an added extra. My big love for the rogue is all those skill points and class skills, but I am a skills-led player and I know that isn't universal.
It is nice to have (say) a Rogue archer or dagger specialist who can significantly add to the party's fighting potential, but fighting is the job of Fighters, Rangers and Barbarians, and the Rogue is a handy extra. A Rogue's Sneak Attack fighting ability is nice to have, but I certainly don't see it as the primary Rogue class ability.
Hmmm, interesting. I agree with you about the skill points an class skills. My friends call me the 'skill whore' - sorry if that offends anyone. However, I think that sneak attack(or, if we wanna go old school backstab) is one of the rogues 'iconic' skills, along with stealth and trapfinding/disarming.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Devs have already said that the "Backstab" ability normally associated with the Rogue classes will be different. There will not be much of an added damage bonus, but a higher chance of buffing / debuffing.
The alpha strike in general has been reduced in effectiveness to the point that it takes nearly 10:1 attackers versus a noob character to one-shot that noob character.
The Devs have also already said, there will not be those long term or stackable roots / stuns like there are in craptastic games like WOW.
I have not seen any widespread belief expressed here that any archtype will be over powered, not enough info has been released and the combat system has not even been tested yet.
I have the utmost confidence that GW will get it right.
On the flip side of the argument. I keep on seeing the suggestion that a Rogue's main function / ability will be disarming traps. PFO being primarily a PVP game, what application will that have in PVP?
I see the primary roles of Rogues as being:
Thieves = PVE / PVP Theft (Stealth, Pickpocketing, Burglary, Lockpicking, Detect / Remove Traps, Ninja looting husks)
Bandits = PVP Robbery (SADS, Concealment, Ambushes, Combat, Looting)
Assassins = PVP Murder (Disguise, Stealth, High DPS, Strategic Thread Cutting (political murders)).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rogues were easily the weakest of the 4 classes in PnP. Can't take a hit, can't heal and the damage blows if they aren't backstabbing (many monsters are immune to that btw). You played them because they were the "dungeoneers" that did all the cool stuff in between fights.
It's not until WoW develops the holy trinity that Rogues become the DPS class and daggers do more damage than warhammers. I didn't play DDO, but I understand they went back to the classic Rogue. Not much good in a fight but more necessary than a cleric to survive a dungeon.
I hope that PFO gives us a rogue somewhere in between the two. It's nice that they deal damage but their best value should be in the utility they have. Sneaking, trapping, unlocking etc.
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Rogues are only DPS death machines in online mmo games, tabletop pen & paper rogues are a different story.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's nice that they deal damage but their best value should be in the utility they have. Sneaking, trapping, unlocking etc.
I think most MMOs have shied away from designing encounters that required utility classes because of the complaints the players had about being so reliant. I'm hopeful that PFO will veer away from that idea and embrace the principle that a really effective group needs to be large and diverse - as in a couple dozen or more characters including a variety of utility roles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rogues are only DPS death machines in online mmo games, tabletop pen & paper rogues are a different story.
Exactly - combat context only -> DPS/Heal/Tank zzz.
I can Rogue Skills having more options such as CC and roots and stealth to escape and leap ability and dodge to delay and such like rather than toe-to-toe with a plate-mail fighter with a halberd swinging away.
As well as traps, pickpocket, inspect cargo, pick lock etc.
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Rogues were easily the weakest of the 4 classes in PnP. Can't take a hit, can't heal and the damage blows if they aren't backstabbing (many monsters are immune to that btw). You played them because they were the "dungeoneers" that did all the cool stuff in between fights.
It's not until WoW develops the holy trinity that Rogues become the DPS class and daggers do more damage than warhammers. I didn't play DDO, but I understand they went back to the classic Rogue. Not much good in a fight but more necessary than a cleric to survive a dungeon.
I hope that PFO gives us a rogue somewhere in between the two. It's nice that they deal damage but their best value should be in the utility they have. Sneaking, trapping, unlocking etc.
The part about monsters being immune to backstab was removed from Pathfinder d20. There are a miniscule amount of critters that are immune to backstab, mostly oozes. You CAN sneak attack undead and golems in Pathfinder, so I assume you can in PFO.
Also, the rogue in WoW should have been named the Ninja. Really, that's what it was. Smoke bombs, volleys of knives and shuriken, secrets of invisibility. They weren't really rogues... they should have just given them the black pajamas and gotten it over with.
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That was one of the (many) bright ideas from Paizo. D&D Rogues were getting an increasing number of monsters that laughed at their Sneak Attacks, notably all the ones you would expect to find in an abandoned temple or dungeon - the undead.
Yeah, it went along with their whole idea of making all of the base classes stronger. I would have never even considered playing a fighter in 3.0 or 3.5, but the Pathfinder fighter is pretty awesome. They buffed rogues, druids, bards and sorcerers into usefulness as well. Every single class got upgrades, but those classes got REALLY BIG upgrades. It was the first thing I noticed when I was introduced to Pathfinder d20. It was actually worthwhile to play a base class all the way to level 20.
I hope in PFO, we can say the same thing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The part about monsters being immune to backstab was removed from Pathfinder d20. There are a miniscule amount of critters that are immune to backstab, mostly oozes. You CAN sneak attack undead and golems in Pathfinder, so I assume you can in PFO.
Also, the rogue in WoW should have been named the Ninja. Really, that's what it was. Smoke bombs, volleys of knives and shuriken, secrets of invisibility. They weren't really rogues... they should have just given them the black pajamas and gotten it over with.
There is no turning back for the rogue as a DPS class. But it is time to scale it back a bit and give them back their utility. They aren't the only ones, I'd love to see Rangers that bring more to the table than Legolasian archery. You know, maybe actually, track.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is no turning back for the rogue as a DPS class. But it is time to scale it back a bit and give them back their utility. They aren't the only ones, I'd love to see Rangers that bring more to the table than Legolasian archery. You know, maybe actually, track.
I think this should all depend on the build. In PF you can make a high int rogue with abilities like trap spotter and quick disable, or you could go high strength or dex with abilities like combat trick, weapon training, surprise attack, bleeding attack, etc.
While the builds surely won't work the same way in PFO, the basic principle should still apply.
I can agree that a rogue that can stunlock and pop in-out of stealth isn't ideal or even very iconic to PF, but we should be able to pop out and take someone down fast enough they can't call their buddies from halfway across the map. Otherwise we are better off just making ranger, barbarian, or lightly armored fighter with stealth. Which are all possible in Pathfinder through the use of traits.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I nearly always took a level or two in Rogue in DDO, there were lots of goodies you missed without Rogue skills. As avari3 mentioned, they have all the skills that a true dungeon crawl requires.
Yeah DDO in concept, nearly had one of the most enjoyable forms of rogues I've seen in an MMO. Between having a large part of stealth be strategic. (IE enemies facing direction, lighting etc... being factors rather than the standard MMO, I have sneak level 6, he can't see me", as well as actually using a decent amount of the utility portions of the class.
Of course where it fell apart in DDO. came in 1. 99% of the utility could be accomplished with a 2 level dip. 2. The traps, while they were deadly on the high difficulties, were usually possible to avoid if you knew what and where they were... and DDO's scripted nature, combined with the amount of vets either rolling new alts and re-incarnating... plus the dungeons having multiple difficulties, the easier ones usually solod, in a party of 5... odds are someone already knows every nook and crany of the dungeon, thus trap spotting and disarming, became more about the tiny boost to the end XP, usually with the rogue disarming the traps while or after his party has already taken off to go fight things.
That being said... PFO from my understanding, is talking about dungeons that appear randomly, and disapear when cleared. Which I believe that means randomly generated dungeons... which brings the nature of players in the dungeon IMO as close as you can get to the true P&P, none of the players know what's behind that door, as you can get without a DM custom writing unique encounters for every group of players. Doing so, does create potential for utility skills and spells, to actually come in handy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like Fighter/Rogue combos for swashbuckler types.
I played a Fighter/Rogue knifeman, who actually did useful damage with daggers because of all the Feats and extras the combination allowed.
Exactly the character I am currently playing in the Way of the Wicked AP. Great fun being a skill monkey and actually being able to contribute to a fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Anyone can disarm traps in PFO now, if they really wanted to enough to give up a small bonus and some training for it. It's better if there is a rogue around but a group isn't hobbled if they can't "LF Rouge" as long as one of them had chosen to train up some dungeoneering ability.
I think it will be pretty common the see rogues with either assassin tag or traveler tag (a crafter/merchant that uses roguieness to avoid trouble in dangerous places).
Tangent: I still like the idea of super special capstone abilities rewarding a dedicated training path instead of an archetype bonus for what's currently slotted. It's a way to make your character special, promotes RP and social networking when you want to fill roles, and avoids the do-this-and-that trap of open ended skilling (though that might only be seen in EVE and The Secret World that I know of so far).
There is no turning back for the rogue as a DPS class. But it is time to scale it back a bit and give them back their utility. They aren't the only ones, I'd love to see Rangers that bring more to the table than Legolasian archery. You know, maybe actually, track.The part about monsters being immune to backstab was removed from Pathfinder d20. There are a miniscule amount of critters that are immune to backstab, mostly oozes. You CAN sneak attack undead and golems in Pathfinder, so I assume you can in PFO.
Also, the rogue in WoW should have been named the Ninja. Really, that's what it was. Smoke bombs, volleys of knives and shuriken, secrets of invisibility. They weren't really rogues... they should have just given them the black pajamas and gotten it over with.
Again, in tabletop Pathfinder both classes can do these things very well. They have bonuses that make them the BEST at them... but other classes can do them as well. I'd like to see something like this in PFO. EQ had a tracking system... it was about the best I've seen. It pulled up a list of all the people in the zone that you could track. You clicked on one of them and it give you an indicator telling you which direction to head in. While real tracking doesn't work this way, of course, would you really want to bring that much realism into it? It would likely end up VERY tedious.
I also look forward to randomly generated dungeons because then traps will be able to be placed into the game in such a manner as to make a rogue/trap finder useful and desired! To me, half of the fun of running a dungeon is having to be cautious of where you step... aware of your surroundings. It would be awesome to put them into PFO, as long as the ways to get around them was kept as quick and interesting not slow and tedious. Anyone with the perception skill should automatically get a check anytime they get close to an area that could be trapped or something similar. Disarm trap a quick and simple roll. Clever puzzles to be figured out, not hokey silliness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For Tracking as a skill to really work well, you need to have access to a lot of mobs that are outside of your normal range, and often not loaded in memory. SWG's tracking was terrible for this very reason - you had to run around the entire area you wanted to track first, spawning in the mobs there, before you could see them on Track.
In SWG you had incredibly large areas, which made it virtually impossible to keep track of everything that might be in the 16 square miles around your character.
Since PFO will be hex based it should be fairly easy to keep track of exactly what monsters are in the relatively small zone and where they are even if nobody has seen them yet. The complete list of that information wouldn't even have to be passed to a player until they activated or updated thier tracking list. They should be able to get it to work at least as well as in EQ, which was good enough for me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Tracking PCs should be do-able (& fun).
Mobs/Monsters, I guess some sort of clever trick with footprint generation that only spawns as you come to it and works off a timer that you follow and persist then you get "closer" to the prey? Some sort of algorithm for where the path goes I guess (ie passable).
If tracking skill is ranger skill I'd like "Pass Swiftly Through Wilderness/Vegetation" so a Ranger runs through eg trees as if they're not there and boulders also.
Could also have tracking as a part of spawns. To actually find their exact location without randomly running across it.
When you enter a hex, a tracking "skill roll" is made and if successful then the tracker will see red outlined foot prints leading somewhere.
In EQ1, you just got updates from the UI telling you to go in a compass direction. It worked pretty well, and was the closest thing I've seen to tracking that wasn't terrible. It shouldn't be that hard... maybe limit it to only working on the hex your in and possibly when you got close enough to a hex border you could see across it. Not sure, it likely depends on how the hexes are designed.
Seems like it should work, though. If EQ1 could do it in 1998, I'm sure GW can do an upgraded version today....
Monster tracking could be abstracted to point you to spawn areas of specified monster type so when you select "track goblins" you get an arrow pointing you towards their (randomly placed) tent.
EDIT: Did EQ tracking worked like that?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's dead simple: Just render tracks according to an algorithm and you follow the tracks (which don't exist until you come -2 steps eg from the next track to display at the top of your screen you are facing and they fade if you don't follow in time. If you stick to the tracks fast enough for a duration you eventually "find" the mob/monster" which then spawns. The skill of the tracking can render for longer or further afield etc and vary depending on the skill of the quarry likewise.
Should distinguish, bounty-hunting a target tracking etc should work differently eg hearsay your inquiries/tip-off tell you that x was last spotted and so on. And some other signs of hounding said target.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Monster tracking could be abstracted to point you to spawn areas of specified monster type so when you select "track goblins" you get an arrow pointing you towards their (randomly placed) tent.
EDIT: Did EQ tracking worked like that?
Yeah, any info on the escalation would make Ranger tracking at least pretty cool. You could have "regular" tracking for monsters and escalations and "city" tracking for PC's.
Monster tracking could be abstracted to point you to spawn areas of specified monster type so when you select "track goblins" you get an arrow pointing you towards their (randomly placed) tent.
EDIT: Did EQ tracking worked like that?
No. It merely gave you(if you were a high enough level ranger) a list of all NPC's and PC's in the zone, and then basically a compass pointer to show you towards the one you chose to track. It's close to the same, but not precisely. The effect is similar however, I suppose. :)
Goblinworks Founder
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It's nice that they deal damage but their best value should be in the utility they have. Sneaking, trapping, unlocking etc.I think most MMOs have shied away from designing encounters that required utility classes because of the complaints the players had about being so reliant. I'm hopeful that PFO will veer away from that idea and embrace the principle that a really effective group needs to be large and diverse - as in a couple dozen or more characters including a variety of utility roles.
I agree. I hope that utility becomes more prevalent in future games.
It always bothered me that some of the Tank/Healer community pushed for the removal of the utility role in MMOs using the excuse that they shouldn't have to rely on a specific class to fill that role, yet they are playing a class with a required role (tank/healing).Personally, I'd like to see rogue-likes return to their utility roots. If you want to be better at combat, dip into the warrior features/skills. I'd really like to see a movement/skill penalty on armour types, this in itself is a good balance mechanic. Heavy Armour restricts base movement and certain dextrous/physical skills, medium armour does to a lesser extent, light armour lesser again, with no armour providing no penalty at all. With time invested into the respective armour skills you can soften the penalties to an extent but the lighter the armour worn, the player should always have a slightly better movement and skill advantage over the heavier armour player. This is counter balanced by the heavier armour being better at absorbing and deflecting damage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Keeping in mind that any character can learn any skill (with the right prerequisites), I hope to see a lot of people training more utility skills.
I have a feeling that once the game has been out a while, people won't be complaining about rogues, but about sneak attack. I'm willing to bet that, especially among players who join after OE, people won't think of themselves or each other as rogues, fighters, or wizards, but as adventurers (EVE-style).
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I have never seen any game ever made in which some segment of the population didn't complain loudly and emphatically that some aspect / class was "overpowered". Usually while simultaneously insisting that their own pet class should receive outrageous buffs.
Rouges are overpowdered.
And by this I mean that people get too caught up in their own desires and forget to enjoy the experience for what it is. Only you can decide to enjoy your experiences. It does not really matter what the state of the game is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the things to keep in mind regarding specialisation of roles, is that that comes about due to economic reasons.
If the range of problems PvE AI mobs pose is very wide and the total skills required to match those problems is always just short supply then you have demand for specializing the skill gap SHOULD your group come up against a particular mob type to more effectively defeat it.
I think that's got to be in part a drive for skill-training that GW is going to definitely put into the game for $$ reasons and the above in-game economy reasons.
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In terms of PvP I think Ryan has said that balancing is not a priority and something like not even possible (eg numbers, experience, context,equipment etc). Not those words but effectively learning which combats to engage and which risks to take solves itself and is interesting gameplay itself?
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If the question is: Are Rogues overpowered at combat? (meaning, are they able to outshine other classes on combat?) Then my answer is a negative one.
Even in PF when the Rogue can sneak-attack more types of creatures than 3.5 (BIG help), they are still limited by the flat-footed-flanking requisite to do so. A rogue has either to invest feats-gear in great initiative bonus to make sure he'll go first and have a great start on fights OR spend time positioning himself on the battlefield to gain the advantage of flanking. That movement is translated in less damage for the Rogue AND improves his chance to be smacked on the face due being an D8 hit dice class.
Right now, i'm playing a KM campaign with a Human Rogue. We have a Barbarian, Fighter and Summoner in the party. The only reason i'm able to (sometimes) reach their power-smacking level is because we are using a HR version of Two Weapon Fighting (use a standard action to make an attack with your main and offhand. You still need to use a Full Round for iterative attacks from BAB/Haste/Imp TWF etc) meaning more sneaks and more damage. And i still need to make some risky acrobatic checks just to position myself to do so, when the animal-totem barbarian can just roam freely and full attack everything that he sees.
Ranged combat? Sure, on round 1 or surprise. Then it's quite a pain in the ass to get the requisites (a large chain feat or get party members to get them).
Finally, woe on the poor Rogue that crosses an Elemental/Ooze/Swarm...those things have "I HATE YOUR CLASS" on their (non exsisting) faces due their immunities.
Finally, woe on the poor Rogue that crosses an Elemental/Ooze/Swarm...those things have "I HATE YOUR CLASS" on their (non exsisting) faces due their immunities.
To be fair, those things hate everyone equally... especially the swarms. Also, it requires a number of feats and a successful bluff check, but there are ways to be able to get a sneak attack every single round in melee. Even to get you full round action of attacks every melee without worrying about flanking/flatfooted. You'll probably be 7th or 8th level before you have full access to it in Pathfinder, but it IS possible... it will require most of your feats to get there, but it turns a rogue into a pretty nasty combat monster.
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To be fair, those things hate everyone equally... especially the swarms. Also, it requires a number of feats and a successful bluff check, but there are ways to be able to get a sneak attack every single round in melee. Even to get you full round action of attacks every melee without worrying about flanking/flatfooted. You'll probably be 7th or 8th level before you have full access to it in Pathfinder, but it IS possible... it will require most of your feats to get there, but it turns a rogue into a pretty nasty combat monster.
Finally, woe on the poor Rogue that crosses an Elemental/Ooze/Swarm...those things have "I HATE YOUR CLASS" on their (non exsisting) faces due their immunities.
Sure, but while Fighter & Barbarian buddies can still smack those immunities with raw damage (power attack, high str scores), Rogue will look at his 1D6+2 shortsword damage and cry on a corner.
Yes, i'm aware that with a certain combination of feat/spells you MAY turn a rogue into an awesome damage machine...but remember: It's a SITUATIONAL awesome damage machine, is negated by a low level class feature (Uncanny Dodge), spells (anything that gives the enemy concealment, reveals your invisibility, etc), magic items (fortification)...and that's asuming you are ABLE to hit with your 3/4 BAB in the first place!Talents are great in the sense that they let you do some interesting stuff in combat (bleed the enemy, penalize him, negate his AoO etc) and give the character somemething unique instead of "hitting the bad guy's hitpoins". Still, most of them require a sneak attack to be activated and suffer the same limitations mentioned above.
Not-Combat talents are kinda 'meh', though some of them might be usefull on a particular game.
The fun and joy of playing a Rogue is playing the character that has that particular skill, item or tactic that the rest of the party has neglected (possibily turning the tables in that combat or give a new direction on how to deal with a problem). That's his place to shine.
That is, untill pure casters start to do everything without blinking. But that's not the discussion here :P
To be fair, those things hate everyone equally... especially the swarms. Also, it requires a number of feats and a successful bluff check, but there are ways to be able to get a sneak attack every single round in melee. Even to get you full round action of attacks every melee without worrying about flanking/flatfooted. You'll probably be 7th or 8th level before you have full access to it in Pathfinder, but it IS possible... it will require most of your feats to get there, but it turns a rogue into a pretty nasty combat monster.
Finally, woe on the poor Rogue that crosses an Elemental/Ooze/Swarm...those things have "I HATE YOUR CLASS" on their (non exsisting) faces due their immunities.Sure, but while Fighter & Barbarian buddies can still smack those immunities with raw damage (power attack, high str scores), Rogue will look at his 1D6+2 shortsword damage and cry on a corner.
Yes, i'm aware that with a certain combination of feat/spells you MAY turn a rogue into an awesome damage machine...but remember: It's a SITUATIONAL awesome damage machine, is negated by a low level class feature (Uncanny Dodge), spells (anything that gives the enemy concealment, reveals your invisibility, etc), magic items (fortification)...and that's asuming you are ABLE to hit with your 3/4 BAB in the first place!Talents are great in the sense that they let you do some interesting stuff in combat (bleed the enemy, penalize him, negate his AoO etc) and give the character somemething unique instead of "hitting the bad guy's hitpoins". Still, most of them require a sneak attack to be activated and suffer the same limitations mentioned above.
Not-Combat talents are kinda 'meh', though some of them might be usefull on a particular game.The fun and joy of playing a Rogue is playing the character that has that particular skill, item or tactic that the rest of the party has neglected (possibily turning the tables in that combat or give a new direction on how to deal...
Well, it sounds like this is a personal thing for you, but let's be honest... the majority of every classes damage can be said to be situational. Melee fighter? Relies on crit or power attack for the majority of their damage. Crits are always situational(need to roll a certain number on the dice) and power attack is as well(can't reasonably use it again enemies with decently high AC's). Casters are situational as well. They can't cast spells in melee combat or risk attacks of opportunity and the lose of the spell unless they make a Concentration check. Even then, there are feats that conditionally allow melee classes to get around that.
It really isn't that hard to flank an enemy. Also, uncanny dodge doesn't make you immune to sneak attack. It makes you immune to being flat-footed...and not against a rogue 4 levels higher than you, so taking a few levels of a class just for that is useless against a full rogue. You can still flank them to sneak attack someone with Uncanny Dodge. Improved Uncanny Dodge makes you immune to flanking too, but again, not against a rogue 4 levels higher than you. I.U.D. is a 10th lvl(at least) talent. I might have those backwards... it's been a while since I played a rogue.
All that being said, an average 9th level rogue, dual wielding can do 20d6 + 4d8 + (weapon bonus*4) + (stat and other damage bonuses * 4) in a single round of combat... just by flanking that opponent with a buddy.
EASILY over 100 points of damage. On average! In 1 round. Without crits.
A 19th lvl rogue is going to do over 300 points of damage a round... on average, when he can backstab - 60d6, while dual wielding - just the sneak attack damage. Probably closer to 400 or 450, really, with the greatly improved gear they should have. No crits, nothing tricky. Just flank or go first. No other class can do that. Not even close.
How are rogues weak again? No other class can put out the potential, sustained damage a rogue can. That's not even using anything unusual, just average every day vanilla core class rogue. With the right feats and alternate advancement paths, that goes up a lot.
Cry me a river about how underpowered a rogue is. Sure, his damage is situational. If it wasn't, they'd be so out of control there'd be nothing you could possibly even consider doing other than completely rewriting the class and eliminating sneak attack entirely... or at least removing half to 2/3rds of it.
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(I'm having a hard time to quote your post, so apologies in advance if my reply seems kinda messy)
First of all, one thing clear: I'm NOT stating rogues in Pathfinder are a weak class or underpowered. My original intention was to provide my insight having played one for 9-10 levels, mainly using the Core manual. What i AM trying to state is that in no way they are an overpowered class, at all. Can they put some hard pain on NPCs from time to time? Sure! Can they take over whole combats by themselves? No way, at least in my experience.
"...the majority of every classes damage can be said to be situational". Sure, either you are rolling a melee/ranged attack, chance will always determine wether you are a succesfull combatant or not. What we can argue though, is that some classes are better prepared to face those "odds of chance" so even if you get a low dice roll, you will succedd. What i tried to state in my previous post, was that a Good BAB class like Barbarian or Fighter, will reach a point where his attack bonus get's so high (either by Fighter's Weapon Training or Barbarian's Rage, plus other dozens of bonus) that they can confidently sacrifice it in order to get more damage (power attack) and provide a consistent damage output.
"...uncanny dodge doesn't make you immune to sneak attack. It makes you immune to being flat-footed...and not against a rogue 4 levels higher than you"
A little correction here: Uncanny Dodge prevents you from being flat-footed. Period. It does not matter if the attacker is an invisible 20 lvl Rogue, he simply cannot catch you flat-footed UNLESS he is flanking you or feinting you. The 4 level diference applies strictly to improved uncanny dodge, whitch prevents flanking.
"...All that being said, an average 9th level rogue, dual wielding can do 20d6 + 4d8 + (weapon bonus*4) + (stat and other damage bonuses * 4) in a single round of combat... just by flanking that opponent with a buddy"
Really? A Rogue is ALWAYS going to make those three attacks? At -2/-2/-7 to hit? (assuming you are using a light weapon on your off hand). My current rogue has a +13 chance to hit on level 9 (4 dex + 1 weapon +1 focus +7 BAB), and a +11/+11 for TWF. That's +11/+11/+6 assuming you are using a Full Round to attack. Let's put a flanking partner on the other side, and for some miracle the enemy hasn't moved or used a 5' step on a non-flanking position: That's a +13/+13/+8 chance to hit. I can assure you after 5-6 sessions of intense combat: Scoring those three is almost impossible, two hits at best. Thats 10D6 extra damage on the SITUATIONAL chance you are flanking or getting the enemy flat-footed for all your attacks (improved invisibility, maybe?). It's good damage, but it's not RELIABLE damage.
And making this point again: Rogues tend to have lower AC/HP that other primary combat classes (no shield, no heavy armor), so beleive me, standing around the bad guy all the time in order to find a flanking position is not healthy for the PC's survival.
..."How are rogues weak again? No other class can put out the potential, sustained damage a rogue can. That's not even using anything unusual, just average every day vanilla core class rogue. With the right feats and alternate advancement paths, that goes up a lot"
Create a 19 lvl Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger with the appropiate gear for their lvl and some basic feats: They are going to do TONS of damage, all the time and flanking-flatfooted is something nice, not something you NEED. Even if they do not crit, their damage output is not going to be reduced for these factors.
I'm am not going even to bring what can spellcasters do at that level.
And if you check your examples for the Rogue, you will see that he is ALWAYS using Two Weapon Fighting. So either he ignores that feat and reduces his combat efectiveness, or risk his neck for trying to make a full attack with TWF against every single mob to be usefull. Again, providing the target is NOT immune to SA (or impeding your SA in other way), is flat-footed/flanked (flank someone against a wall? someone flying?) AND you get a good dice to strike his AC with your 3/4 BAB and TWF penalties.
Sneak Attack is nice, but it's not broken. You have to work your ass to make it happen, and that's good. What mainly bother's me is the immunity to it: It's frustrating for the player (3.5 was worse) and there's little thing you can do on those situations.
would rather like to have something like "The target reduces your precision dice pool on half, rounded down" instead of an immunity. In that way, you are reduced on your combat abilities, not just ignored.
Again, not trying to "cry a river" for you, just making my input on some real problems for a class that could offer so much more to the game that the one currently propossed.
Regards
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