Well, no Rand Paul fan or lawyer here, but I'm pretty certain the US government doesn't need special rules to take out people in the actual process of committing crimes.
Well, no Rand Paul fan or lawyer here, but I'm pretty certain the US government doesn't need special rules to take out people in the actual process of committing crimes.Ah, but without a trial, how do you even know if they were in the process of committing a crime? That leaves plenty of loopholes. Like the ones ones cops jump through when shooting young black men on a semi-regular basis.
Which was kind of my point.
And now we've got special laws that allow them to kill American citizens for posting youtube videos advocating jihad (al-Awlaki Sr.--I'd still love to see actual evidence--as opposed to unsubstantiated government claims--that he did otherwise), being the son of said youtube poster (al-Awlaki, Jr.), or having been considered by a grand jury as a terrorist suspect and then having said claims dismissed (Samir Khan).
Nevermind, of course, all the non-American citizens that have been blown up for such crimes as being Arabic (EDIT: or otherwise, depending on the country involved), male and of "fighting age" (signature strikes).
Anyway, as I've said before, we've already got the Stasi, we might as well get the health care and jobs--for workers revolution!
Vive le Galt!
Mind you the Rand Paul asking this question was the same one that said this after the Boston bombingI just like to point that out, whenever RP & drones comes up.I’ve never argued against any technology being used when you have an imminent threat, an active crime going on. If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and fifty dollars in cash, I don’t care if a drone kills him or a policeman kills him…
If there’s a killer on the loose in a neighborhood, I’m not against drones being used to search them out, heat-seeking devices being used, I’m all for law enforcement.
I've never understood the concern over drones in the US police force. They already use helicopters with snipers. All drones do is make it cheaper. The type of weaponry onboard should definetely be talked about to ask if it is appropriate for non-military use, but survielance and accurate low aoe weapons aren't where the problem is.
I originally linked the article from antiwar.blog, 'cuz, you know, I'm anti-war, but upon further perusal, I get the feeling that this is some pretty right-wing shiznit.
Mother Jones is still pretty right-wing from where I'm standing, but at least it doesn't have links to Glenn Beck.
Drones: It's not the weapons, it's the sensors.
Drones: It's not the weapons, it's the sensors.
They can already do it with manned helicopters and have been doing it for decades.
Calmer, yes. You have do decide for yourself what you consider credible.this is a bit out there. Anything more credible or at least calmer?....exactly my point. Thank you, Mr. O'Brien.I know that Mr. O'Brien is making a joke, but ... it is really happening.
thank you.
Drones: It's not the weapons, it's the sensors.They can already do it with manned helicopters and have been doing it for decades.
Its not just can they do it yes/no, its how much of it can they afford to do and how much of it are they doing. Black helicopters burning gallons of fuel per minute with a highly trained pilot are simply too expensive to be used widely. An unmanned drone that can soon be piloted by some kid training on flight simulator 8 flying 4 miles up in the air and able to read the newspaper you're holding allows a completely different level of surveillance.
There's a lot of hype about Operation Vigilant Eagle, but not much concrete evidence of abuse. The only case I'm aware of is Brandon Raub, he was detained and underwent psychiatric evaluation and after a month a judge ordered his release. FOIA requests haven't turned up any relevant information about why or how they were even suspicious of him and it's not clear to what extent the FBI was involved (which is what would link it to OVE).
OVE doesn't exclusively target military veterans, it's a program that is trying to discover the Ted Kaczynski's and Timothy McVeigh's before they blow people up. I think we should do what we can to spot individuals who are planning such violence early, if possible. It's incredibly difficult and often means doing some snooping. I think as long as that snooping is legal and mindful of civil rights, it's okay, combing through facebook and internet forums, publicly available data and trying to link it up to trends and certain characteristics.
I do think what happened to Brandon Raub shouldn't happen, but at the same time the system did self-correct, a judge ordered his release. Further investigation should happen though, who gave the go ahead on his detention, what was used to make the determination, etc.
It is quite simple. That the system corrects itself is not enough. Not by any sense of the words. We have a situation where someone is put away, without being informed why or for how long. That in itself is unacceptable, and anyone who thinks it can be okay should try it before they support it. Things like that change a person permanently. Not to mention the people who admit to things they didn't do hoping for a shorter sentence, people who have mental handicaps and can't understand what happens, and so on. Further, there is no investigation happening. There never is. If someone tries, they get buried in notives that the information they seek is classified. Those whohave these rights will not accept criticism or investigation, because their powers may be threatened by this.
So, no secret police that can put people away without trials, ever. Especially not with the ability of ubiquitous surveillance, unless you want them to run the country.
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No, it's hugely important that the system can self correct. That's actually a cornerstone of our legal system and is of massive importance. That's a major difference between the US and China. In the US, an appeal means there is actually a chance to have a ruling overturned through a legitimate process.
I agree, it shouldn't happen in the first place, but at the same time it must be recognized that safeguards in place did work.
I'm not advocating giving up any fundamental rights, like free speech, right to a trial, freedom from warrant-less search and seizure, etc. I do think more public disclosure on how OVE is working would be a good thing.
So far, I'm highly doubtful of most of the criticisms of OVE. For example: this article makes some claims. It's not even three weeks old, but some of those hyperlinks in the article are already dead. They're some key claims too, like the allegation that someone was detained on fabricated evidence.
I don't want to be detained illegally by the government. I also don't want be blown up by someone who hates the government.
The military has a small problem with attracting the wrong type.
I'm okay with protecting a white supremacists free speech, I'm also okay with the FBI checking around to see if they're buying fertilizer in bulk.
Not really connected to Snowden, but more on the American Secret Police
Activists Accuse Washington, D.C. Police Officer of Infiltrating Bangladesh Sweatshop Protests
-America is in far greater damage from political apathy, than political oppression. For generations, the most vile, ambitious, amoral individuals have gone "into politics" and created a virtual rule of ivy league lawyers, who create no wealth, but simply make a fortune out of class action law suits, and petty corruption. That this is the class of people who run the US is quite telling...
-We all look away in disgust, and wonder why things keep getting worse?
Not really connected to Snowden, but more on the American Secret Police
Activists Accuse Washington, D.C. Police Officer of Infiltrating Bangladesh Sweatshop Protests
Someone else made a documentary about that stuff, I think it was called Stop Snitching.
Edit: @HarbinNick: Class action lawsuits are not the problem. Neither are most lawsuits in general. I highly recommend watching the documentary Hot Coffee, it's available on Netflix.
One of the cases they talk about in the film is a teenager who was born with brain damage due to malpractice by the doctor. Because the state the family lives in, Nebraska, has limits on damages, the family could not receive the amount of money required to care for their child for the rest of his life (due to the damage caused by the doctor). Now, once the parents are too poor to pay for him, or they die, he'll become a ward of the state and the taxpayers will have to foot the bill, instead of the doctor who did the damage.
"The IRC logs don't explain the chasm between the Snowden who disdained leakers and the Snowden who became a leaker himself in 2013. And it's hardly a perfect parallel; Snowden was upset about leaks over US covert operations in Iran, which is different from the domestic spying and offensive cyberwar programs he felt compelled to make public.
"TheTrueHOOHA's last known logon to #arsificial was in May 2009, just over four years ago. The Snowden seen in these chats is not the man we see today. Snowden clearly had to cross some kind of personal Rubicon in order to leave his life behind. His chats reveal his strident beliefs in individualism and a generally libertarian aesthetic, but they also showed real support for the security state.
"During the years in which Snowden talked politics on IRC, his doubts grew. 'Much of what I saw in Geneva really disillusioned me about how my government functions and what its impact is in the world,' he told The Guardian when he revealed himself. It's during this time that he first considered revealing US secrets, but he held off.
"The chats make clear that what Snowden discovered while working for the government felt so deeply wrong to him that he had a major change of heart. While there was no 'one moment,' seeing officials lie about these omniscient spying programs over a period of years pushed him over the edge. 'It was seeing a continuing litany of lies from senior officials to Congress—and therefore the American people,' Snowden said in an online chat last week. 'Seeing someone in the position of James Clapper baldly lying to the public without repercussion is the evidence of a subverted democracy. The consent of the governed is not consent if it is not informed.'
"Hints of this might be seen in Snowden's later postings to the Ars forums, which began to slow around the time he left #arsificial. One of his last posts, from 2010, was about society's increasing acquiescence to 'spooky types.'"
Interesting story on the subject I found here
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009-ed-snowden-sai d-leakers-should-be-shot-then-he-became-one/
Pretty much reinforces my opinion he's a bit of a nutjob
this is why I had a problem with his disavowing/dismissing any investigation of his past comments.
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this is why I had a problem with his disavowing/dismissing any investigation of his past comments.Interesting story on the subject I found here
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009-ed-snowden-sai d-leakers-should-be-shot-then-he-became-one/
Pretty much reinforces my opinion he's a bit of a nutjob
But fundamentally, who cares if he's a nutjob, or he's changed his mind, or he's just out for money, or he's a traitor or whatever?
If he's a nutjob, does that mean the spying programs are just fine? Does it change what he's revealed?
Depends if whatever it is he's revealed is true or not.
What he is saying is that the US is spying wholesale all over the world. The US government denies this, somewhat... Because they can't be found lying about it in a way that it can be checked. And, like it or not, there is a lot of data out there that tells the same story. No, this guy is not an American shill. Nor is he a spy for someone else. Having a guy in the NSA is far too valuable an asset for some other government to give up. No, unless something else comes forward, it's in all probability safe to assume he is on the level.
Forbes: Take A Break From The Snowden Drama For A Reminder Of What He's Revealed So Far
Mother Jones: 5 Intriguing New NSA Revelations From Edward Snowden
Something called Not the Singularity: Focusing On Snowden’s Revelations, Not Snowden
McClatchy: In 3 weeks, Snowden’s revelations have roiled the globe
His past is spotless enough to land him an impressive security clearance. I don't understand why that doesn't mean anything just because the spin doctors are trying to smear him.
Heaven knows, I'm not one to defend the USA, but it would be nice if some of our European brethren (or elsewhere) would weigh in on their "own" cyberspy programs. Perhaps Sweden and Finland are innocent, but I've been skimming articles on:
--The resignation of the entire government of Luxembourg
--Recriminations between the CDU and the SPD about complicity with the NSA in Germany
--The UK had their own similar program
--The DGSE of France doing similar things
Depends if whatever it is he's revealed is true or not.this is why I had a problem with his disavowing/dismissing any investigation of his past comments.Interesting story on the subject I found here
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009-ed-snowden-sai d-leakers-should-be-shot-then-he-became-one/
Pretty much reinforces my opinion he's a bit of a nutjob
But fundamentally, who cares if he's a nutjob, or he's changed his mind, or he's just out for money, or he's a traitor or whatever?
If he's a nutjob, does that mean the spying programs are just fine? Does it change what he's revealed?
If the documents are fake, why does the US government want him returned to stand trial for treason?
Sweden is spying on Swedish citizens. FRA sells raw wiretap data to the NSA. They got that law in place in 2008, despite serious protests. Turns out it was based on a list of demands the US put a few years earlier. Cablegate confirmed this.
This one is such old news for me, I forgot to even post it.
Sweden is spying on Swedish citizens. FRA sells raw wiretap data to the NSA. They got that law in place in 2008, despite serious protests. Turns out it was based on a list of demands the US put a few years earlier. Cablegate confirmed this.
You know, I've always loved you, Madame Sissyl.
Black Agenda Report: A Necessary Third Open Letter to Melissa Harris-Perry
spirals into a nitpicking ramble so fast its funny.
Well, what you think is a funny nitpicking ramble, I thought was a pretty detailed counter of some pretty blatant shilling for the Obama administration, but tastes vary, I suppose.
Sweden is spying on Swedish citizens. FRA sells raw wiretap data to the NSA. They got that law in place in 2008, despite serious protests. Turns out it was based on a list of demands the US put a few years earlier. Cablegate confirmed this.
Knowing this, it really wouldn't surprise me if Finland was spying on the citizens of Finland.
You can be pretty sure they are, for the very same reason. However, even if they aren't, the spying data from FRA most likely covers the majority of electronic communications in the entirety of northern Europe, which pretty certainly includes Finland.
Only tangential to the subject at hand, but I didn't see it until Monday and he does call Snowden and Manning the "John Browns of our day."
Even though we don't agree on everything, it's good to have Brother Cornel back in the Revolutionary Goblin fold.
(I, of course, loved it when he called Obama "the global George Zimmerman." Hee hee!)
Looks like Snowden was officially nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. (Albeit one of probably hundreds of nominees.)
Including Manning.
259 as of April. Or March. Highest ever, I guess.
Well, the german government does everything in their might to just ignore the scandal. Merkel has been silent all the time, her secretaries have only admitted what they could not deny any longer, and all in all, they are basically saying "there is nothing to see her, citizen, just go along". One secretary even went so far and declared the scandal for finished, everything cleared.
Meanwhile, the german services buy spying programs and will use the same software the NSA uses to do their spying, so they will not only spy on any target presenting itself, but of course give the data to other services. They have found a nice workaround for those pesky data security and privacy laws: if the NSA or the GDHQ do the surveillance on german citizens, then no german law is broken, and the german services still get the info they want. I guess it would work the other way round as well.
Oh, and on the US government not killing citizens:
http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/326315-former-nsa-chief -jokes-about-putting-snowden-on-kill-list
Great joke, there. I can´t stop laughing...
And here:
http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/326345-ex-nsa-chief-i-c ertainly-hope-agency-involved-in-targeted-killings
Quote: "Assassinations are forbidden by executive order," Hayden continued. "We don't do assassinations."
But he said the government does perform "targeted killings against enemy combatants" because the nation is at war."
There is a very fine line between "assassinations" and "targeted killings against enemy combatants", especially with the War on Terror having no clearly defined enemy combatants. Just declare someone an enemy combatant, and voila, killing him is ok. Who can say just how "enemy combatant" is defined in ten years? Yes, there may be legal procedures - too bad somebody could be dead by then. The potential for abuse is huge.
Well, the german government does everything in their might to just ignore the scandal. Merkel has been silent all the time, her secretaries have only admitted what they could not deny any longer, and all in all, they are basically saying "there is nothing to see her, citizen, just go along". One secretary even went so far and declared the scandal for finished, everything cleared.
Meanwhile, the german services buy spying programs and will use the same software the NSA uses to do their spying, so they will not only spy on any target presenting itself, but of course give the data to other services. They have found a nice workaround for those pesky data security and privacy laws: if the NSA or the GDHQ do the surveillance on german citizens, then no german law is broken, and the german services still get the info they want. I guess it would work the other way round as well.
Oh, and on the US government not killing citizens:
http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/326315-former-nsa-chief -jokes-about-putting-snowden-on-kill-listGreat joke, there. I can´t stop laughing...
And here:
http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/326345-ex-nsa-chief-i-c ertainly-hope-agency-involved-in-targeted-killingsQuote: "Assassinations are forbidden by executive order," Hayden continued. "We don't do assassinations."
But he said the government does perform "targeted killings against enemy combatants" because the nation is at war."
There is a very fine line between "assassinations" and "targeted killings against enemy combatants", especially with the War on Terror having no clearly defined enemy combatants. Just declare someone an enemy combatant, and voila, killing him is ok. Who can say just how "enemy combatant" is defined in ten years? Yes, there may be legal procedures - too bad somebody could be dead by then. The potential for abuse is huge.
re: spy computer programs- I think everyone buys this stuff from the same company or group of companies.
And the former nsa chief should not have said that. Its not funny and undermines himself andhis organization. He needs a crack in the back of the head.
Well, the german services use the same software the NSA uses - it is a software hosted by the NSA as far as I understand the matter. So, data exchange is part of the package from the outset.
The BND is tapping into german internet traffic en masse as well, which is basically illegal, but allowed by the "responsible" secretaries.
german link: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/vorab/bnd-laesst-sich-abhoeren-von-verbindung en-deutscher-provider-genehmigen-a-926221.html
And german investigative authorities wiretapped the confidential phonecalls between lawyers and their clients as well - which is a serious breach of the pertinent laws. This confidentiality is very important.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/spiegel-ermittlungsbehoerden-bela uschten-strafverteidiger-a-926277.html
Regarding the fomer NSA chief: Joking about kill lists warrants more than just a crack in the head IMO. This kind of joke shows how far the NSA and probably other services have gone in the direction of totaliarism already. Killing people is no joke at all, and warrants a closer look into the mindset of the NSA. But then, blatantly lying to Congress seems to have no repercussions at all, why should anybody worry about inappropriate jokes?
re: spy computer programs- I think everyone buys this stuff from the same company or group of companies.
They do.
Crazy4catnip (formerly known as Mr. SnowJade; his preference) had some interesting comments on the reaction of WikiLeaks on the upcoming movie
The Fifth Estate: The producers offered them a chance to comment on the script and were turned down flat, and now WikiLeaks is kvetching about the content and "slant" of the picture. Well, guys, you had your shot at it. If you don't vote, you shouldn't b$&+$. Yes, you will anyway, we all know that. But it makes a big difference in how the rest of us perceive you.
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"On January 24, 2013, Julian Assange claimed, during a presentation of the Sam Adams Award for Integrity in Intelligence at Oxford University, that he had read the screenplay of the film, describing it as a[20] 'serious propaganda attack on WikiLeaks and the integrity of its staff, as a "lie built upon a lie"', and as 'fanning the flames for war on Iran':[21] the opening scene was inside a putative military complex in Iran and nuclear symbols could be seen."
Oh gee, I can't understand why they wouldn't have wanted to be involved...