This has come up recently in our game when 10x10 solid wall forcecage was cast.
Can you hear through the forcecage? I say no, but looking for others' opinion.
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I'd say yes or no? (yes to the thread title "Can wall of force block sound" and no to your post "Can you hear through the forcecage" which is the opposite and same at the same time . . .) Anwyay the wall of force is a solid barrier that blocks line of effect. Sound is vibrations in the air and would thus also be blocked by wall of force as the line of effect is blocked.
Sound is vibrations in the air and would thus also be blocked by wall of force as the line of effect is blocked.
By that reasoning you should still probably he able to hear, just not as well (the same way a wall of stone would block sound).
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Sound is vibrations in the air and would thus also be blocked by wall of force as the line of effect is blocked.By that reasoning you should still probably he able to hear, just not as well (the same way a wall of stone would block sound).
Hmm fair point i hadnt actually considered that vibrations do conduct through stone and the like just muted. Give me a minute.
EDIT
So no mention in the spell about sonic attacks only breath weapons and that normal weapons can damage it. Looking at the stats . . .
Wall of force: Hardness 30, 20 hitpoints.
Wall of iron: Hardness 10, 30 hitpoints.
Wall of stone: Hardness 8, 15 hitpoints
I would therefore change my original answer in light of this and say yes sound does pass through it however its extremely muffled and you'll only hear very loud sounds clearly. Hearing perception checks through a wall are +10 per foot of thicknes.
The question now becomes is since wall of force has 3 times the hardness of wall of iron and about that of stone should that penalty be higher? +15, +20, +30? Me I'd probably go with +15 instead of +10 but that's just me. You could also argue that the extra hardness is offset by the uniform nature of what the sound vibration is passing through.
It really depends on the acoustic properties of the material, which has little relation to the hardness of the material. Gold for example translates sound better than lead does (the speed of sound through gold is about double that of lead). Also, the larger the sound absorption coefficient of the material varies over frequencies the more distorted the sound becomes. IOW material A may not reduce the volume of sound as much as material B, but it's easier to understand someone through material B.
Since a wall of force isn't something that can be created IRL (that I'm aware of) it's hard to know how it "should" behave. I think since a wall of force blocks harmful sonic based spells/attacks it's sensible that it would at the very least muffle sounds. It of course also depends on how the wall is placed relative to the environment. Is the wall bisecting a hallway with no way around or is it a free standing structure in the middle of a wide open area?
Wall of Force blocks material things from passing through to the other side, and sound is based on vibrations in the air. Air is material, so it would not pass through to the other side, so the vibration of the air would end with the air that is on one side of the Wall of Force and the vibrations would not transfer to the air on the other side. I would say no.
Wall of Force blocks material things from passing through to the other side, and sound is based on vibrations in the air. Air is material, so it would not pass through to the other side, so the vibration of the air would end with the air that is on one side of the Wall of Force and the vibrations would not transfer to the air on the other side. I would say no.
So, you're assuming that the wall its self doesn't vibrate at all. Sound normally transmits through materials by having the air vibrate the material which in turn vibrates the air on the other side. A wall of force incapable of vibrating at all would be more soundproof than a wall of stone. Effectively imposing a silence effect not indicated by the spell.
Wall of Force blocks material things from passing through to the other side, and sound is based on vibrations in the air. Air is material, so it would not pass through to the other side, so the vibration of the air would end with the air that is on one side of the Wall of Force and the vibrations would not transfer to the air on the other side. I would say no.So, you're assuming that the wall its self doesn't vibrate at all. Sound normally transmits through materials by having the air vibrate the material which in turn vibrates the air on the other side. A wall of force incapable of vibrating at all would be more soundproof than a wall of stone. Effectively imposing a silence effect not indicated by the spell.
I think if sound was allowed to pass through, then it would say so in the spell description of Wall of Force or some other source that talks about Sonic or Force descriptors, so I'm making my assumption based off that.
[Descriptor]Appearing on the same line as the school and sub-school, when applicable, is a descriptor that further categorizes the spell in some way. Some spells have more than one descriptor.
The descriptors are acid, air, chaotic, cold, curse, darkness, death, disease, draconicPZO9470, earth, electricity, emotion, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, meditativePPC:DA, mind-affecting, pain, poison, shadow, sonic, and water.
Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on.
Editor’s Note: The descriptors below have been updated to reflect changes and new descriptors from PZO1117.
Acid: Acid effects deal damage with chemical reactions rather than cold, electricity, heat, or vibration. This descriptor includes both actual acids and their chemical opposites, called bases or alkalines (such as ammonia and lye).
Air: Spells that create air, manipulate air, or conjure creatures from air-dominant planes or with the air subtype should have the air descriptor.
Chaotic: Spells that draw upon the power of true chaos or conjure creatures from chaos-aligned planes or with the chaotic subtype should have the chaos descriptor.
Cold: Cold effects deal damage by making the target colder, typically by blasting it with supernaturally cooled matter or energy. Cold effects also include those that create ice, sleet, or snow out of nothing. They can cause frostbite, numbness, coordination problems, slowed movement and reactions, stupor, and death.
Curse: Curses are often permanent effects, and usually cannot be dispelled, but can be removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, or wish. Source: PZO1117.
Additional Curse info from PZO1135 Many spells can place curses on unfortunate victims. Their effects are usually simple and can be ended with the right spell (but never dispel magic). All curse spells have the curse descriptor. The most well-known is bestow curse, which allows the caster to invent her own effect in line with the listed options (no worse than a 50% chance of losing actions, a –4 penalty on checks, or a –6 penalty to an ability score). Effects in line with that power level include the following, though ultimately they are limited only by the caster’s imagination and the GM’s discretion.
When the victim is adjacent to the area of a damaging spell or spell-like effect (even one he created himself ), the area expands to include the victim.
The victim can’t heal naturally, and magical healing heals the victim by only half the usual amount (minimum 1 point). The victim’s fast healing and regeneration, if any, are likewise halved.
The victim is plagued by cacophonous sounds and strobing lights that only she can hear and see. She is distracted (–5 penalty on Perception checks), cannot take 10 on skill checks, and must succeed at a concentration check (DC = 20 + spell level) to successfully cast spells. Any time the victim picks up or retrieves an object (including drawing a weapon or ammunition), there is a 50% chance that she immediately drops it. If she drops ammunition while attempting to make a ranged attack, that particular attack is lost.Save DCs: The stat block for a curse lists the save DC. For curses that can be created by a spell, this usually represents the minimum DC. If a spell is used to create a curse in your game, calculate the DC using the caster’s ability score and the spell level as normal. Source: PZO1135.
Darkness: Spells that create darkness or reduce the amount of light should have the darkness descriptor. Giving a spell the darkness descriptor indicates whether a spell like daylight is high enough level to counter or dispel it.
Death: Spells with the death descriptor directly attack a creature’s life force to cause immediate death, or to draw on the power of a dead or dying creature. The death ward spell protects against death effects, and some creature types are immune to death effects.
Disease: Disease effects give the target a disease, which may be an invading organism such as a bacteria or virus, an abnormal internal condition (such as a cancer or mental disorder), or a recurring magical effect that acts like one of the former. Creatures with resistance or immunity to disease apply that resistance to their saving throw and the effects of disease spells. Source: PZO1117.
Draconic: The draconic descriptor is for spells tied closely to dragons that those with draconic blood can cast them almost instinctually. Spells with the draconic descriptor were created by dragons in ages long past, and still resonate within the blood of true dragons to this day. Creatures of the dragon type with 5 or more racial hit dice can select a draconic spell as a spell known regardless of the class spell list it’s on. Each time such a creature gains an additional racial hit die, it can select a draconic spell in place of an existing spell known of the same or higher spell level. Source PZO9470
Earth: Spells that manipulate earth or conjure creatures from earth-dominant planes or with the earth subtype should have the earth descriptor.
Electricity: Electricity effects involve the presence and flow of electrical charge, whether expressed in amperes or volts. Electricity deals damage to creatures by disrupting their biological systems. It deals damage to objects (as well as creatures) by heating the material it passes through, and thus technically many electricity spells could also be treated as fire spells, but for sake of game simplicity, it is better to just let electricity-based spells deal electricity damage. Electricity effects may stun, paralyze, or even kill.
Emotion: Spells with this descriptor create emotions or manipulate the target’s existing emotions. Most emotion spells are enchantments, except for fear spells, which are usually necromancy. Source: PZO1117.
Evil: Spells that draw upon evil powers or conjure creatures from evil-aligned planes or with the evil subtype should have the evil descriptor.\
Additional Information on the Evil DescriptorCasting an evil spell is an evil act, but for most characters simply casting such a spell once isn’t enough to change her alignment; this only occurs if the spell is used for a truly abhorrent act, or if the caster established a pattern of casting evil spells over a long period. A wizard who uses animate dead to create guardians for defenseless people won’t turn evil, but he will if he does it over and over again. The GM decides whether the character’s alignment changes, but typically casting two evil spells is enough to turn a good creature nongood, and three or more evils spells move the caster from nongood to evil. The greater the amount of time between castings, the less likely alignment will change. Some spells require sacrificing a sentient creature, a major evil act that makes the caster evil in almost every circumstance.
Those who are forbidden from casting spells with an opposed alignment might lose their divine abilities if they circumvent that restriction (via Use Magic Device, for example), depending on how strict their deities are.
Though this advice talks about evil spells, it also applies to spells with other alignment descriptors.
Fear: Spells with the fear descriptor create, enhance, or manipulate fear. Most fear spells are necromancy spells, though some are enchantment spells.
Fire: Fire effects make the target hotter by creating fire, directly heating the target with magic or friction. Lava, steam, and boiling water all deal fire damage. Fire effects can also cause confusion, dizziness, exhaustion, fatigue, nausea, unconsciousness, and death. Spells that manipulate fire or conjure creatures from fire-dominant planes or with the fire subtype should have the fire descriptor.
Good: Spells that draw upon the power of true goodness or conjure creatures from good-aligned planes or with the good subtype should have the good descriptor.
Language-Dependent: A language-dependent spell uses intelligible language as a medium for communication. If the target cannot understand or hear what the caster of a language-dependent spell says, the spell has no effect, even if the target fails its saving throw.
Lawful: Spells that draw upon the power of true law or conjure creatures from law-aligned planes or with the lawful subtype should have the law descriptor.
Light: Spells that create significant amounts of light or attack darkness effects should have the light descriptor. Giving a spell the light descriptor indicates whether a spell like darkness is high enough level counter or dispel it.
Meditative: Meditative spells fall into an unusual category and share the “meditative” descriptor. Meditative spells are not cast like other spells—they are cast during the period of the day when a spellcaster prepares her spells. A meditative spell must already be prepared at the time when you start your 1-hour spell preparation ritual, and at the end of that time, the meditative spell of your choosing is cast, leaving you with that one spell slot used for the remainder of the day. You can have only one meditative spell in effect on you at any one time. All meditative spells have a range of personal and a target of you, and they can’t be brewed into potions or part of similar one-use items like elixirs. A meditative spell can be placed on a scroll or in a wand, but the act of casting the spell must always be incorporated into the user’s spell-preparation time; it also takes 1 hour for a character who succeeds at an appropriate Use Magic Device check to operate such an item. Source PPC:DA
Mind-Affecting: Mindless creatures (those with an Intelligence score of “—”) and undead are immune to mind-affecting effects.
Pain: Pain effects cause unpleasant sensations without any permanent physical damage (though a sensitive target may suffer mental repercussions from lengthy exposure to pain). Creatures that are immune to effects that require a Fort save (such as constructs and undead) are immune to pain effects. Source: PZO1117.
Poison: Poison effects use poison, venom, drugs, or similar toxic substances to disrupt and damage living creatures through chemical reactions. Technically, acids and poisons are both chemical reactions, but for the purpose of this game, they are categorized as different effects, with acids dealing hit point damage and poisons causing ability damage, ability drain, bleeding, confusion, convulsions, nausea, paralysis, reduced healing, suffocation, unconsciousness, or death. Creatures with resistance to poison (such as dwarves) apply that resistance to their saving throws and the effects of poison spells. Creatures with immunity are immune to poisonous aspects of poison spells, but not necessarily all effects of the spell (for example, a spell that creates a pit full of liquid poison could still trap or drown a poison-immune creature). Source: PZO1117.
Ruse: The “ruse” descriptor applies to spells that appear to be other, usually more harmless spells in order for the caster to fool her opponents. Spells with the ruse descriptor are easily mistaken for other spells and are intended to confuse even onlookers trained in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana). Attempts to identify a ruse spell by its effects, its aura, its components, or other attributes with a skill check treat the spell as though it were a different spell, as indicated in the spell’s description. The one attempting the check can correctly identify the spell only by exceeding the DC by 10. The false spell is typically a level lower than the ruse spell, so skill checks use the DC for the lower-level spell. Even detect magic and most similar spells don’t prevent the caster from being fooled by a ruse spell. Analyze dweomer, greater arcane sight, and similar spells of the same or higher spell level that automatically identify spells reveal a ruse spell for what it is. Ruse spells that mimic harmless spells still list harmless on their saving throw or spell resistance lines; a creature that knows or suspects the true nature of the spell typically chooses to attempt the save. Source: PZO1134.
Shadow: Shadow spells manipulate matter or energy from the Shadow Plane, or allow transport to or from that plane. Source: PZO1117.
Water: Spells that manipulate water or conjure creatures from water-dominant planes or with the water subtype should have the water descriptor.
Here's something else I found that discussed Wall of Force and it's relationship to Antimagic. Not exactly relevant to this discussion, but it's worth reading to understand how WoF interacts with other spell effects.
Wall of force, prismatic wall, and prismatic sphere are not affected by antimagic. Break enchantment, dispel magic, and greater dispel magic spells do not dispel antimagic. Mage’s disjunction has a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field. If the antimagic field survives the disjunction, no items within it are disjoined.
There are some 3rd party Psionic powers and abilities that use Sonic energy to bypass hardness of objects, which would also translate to bypassing the hardness when destroying a Wall of Force or a Forcecage, but nothing in the Psionic rules say anything about sonic energy interacting with force effects in any special way either.
I'm inclined to believe that speaking, or any type of sonic energy, has no ability to travel through a Wall of Force. It already says that it blocks the Line of Effect for anything material, and air is material. So if there was a special exception to this rule for speaking or any type of sonic energy, it would say it somewhere in the rules or the spell's description.
I agree that a wall of force blocks line of effect. A wall of stone similarly stops line of effect. I agree that both a wall of stone and a wall of force would block the harmful effects of sonic scream. However, I'm not under the impression that the wall created by wall of stone is completely sound proof. So while the sonic scream wouldn't hurt you, you would still hear it.
So far as I can tell a wall of force would be similar. You can shout at and communicate with someone who is on the other side so long as you are being sufficiently loud. Compared to a silence effect which would prevent communication no mater how loud you're attempting to be.
We should go ask James Jacobs in his off-topic thread :P
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I agree that a wall of force blocks line of effect. A wall of stone similarly stops line of effect. I agree that both a wall of stone and a wall of force would block the harmful effects of sonic scream. However, I'm not under the impression that the wall created by wall of stone is completely sound proof. So while the sonic scream wouldn't hurt you, you would still hear it.
So far as I can tell a wall of force would be similar. You can shout at and communicate with someone who is on the other side so long as you are being sufficiently loud. Compared to a silence effect which would prevent communication no mater how loud you're attempting to be.
The issue is Sonic Scream can damage the wall and its purely sound. If the wall didn't vibrate how could the scream damage it? If it can vibrate enough to be damaged it implies sound can pass through it and you could carry on a conversation with something on the other side. If sound is utterly stopped then the wall of force has additional effects not indicated in the spell not only being immune to spells but also any sound based attacks or conversation attempts.
The issue is Sonic Scream can damage the wall and its purely sound. If the wall didn't vibrate how could the scream damage it?
Imagine the wall doesn't move at all. You can hit it with a sledge hammer and it doesn't budge a micrometer. If you hit it hard enough it would be forced to move, but since it can't move it gives way and breaks. Similar to how glass doesn't bend but instead breaks, the wall doesn't vibrate but instead breaks.
(Not saying this is how it is, I'm just offering ideas to help visualise.)
If it can vibrate enough to be damaged it implies sound can pass through it and you could carry on a conversation with something on the other side.
If it vibrates/moves at all then sound would pass through (although muffled). The vibrations are what causes sound, so "if X then Y" is true in this case.
If the wall didn't vibrate how could the scream damage it?
It's a question of degree. You don't need to penetrate something fully in order to damage it. Think of sonic damage on this as eroding the outer surface first and working its way in, like rust, or sandblasting.
As for the original question...
A wall of iron is at least two inches thick the soonest it can be cast, and (as has been mentioned), has 30hp per inch and hardness 10. The hardness can probably be disregarded because it represents how brittle/breakable something is.
A forcecage has 20hp per caster level, and hardness 30, with a minimum caster level of 13, meaning it's got 260 hit points. It's three times as resistant to damage, and has the durability of almost nine inches of iron.
So. Imagine you're in a 10x10 cell of iron which is nine inches thick. If you were to speak, could someone on the outside hear you? Not a chance. If you were to pound a hammer on the metal, would that be audible on the outside? Almost certainly. If you were to run a hair dryer inside? No way. Lawnmower? Probably not. Play drums? Again, probably not. Jet engine? Maybe.
In order to transmit sound, the wall has to absorb vibration, and move that vibration to its outer surface, then vibrate the surrounding air outside. Direct impact on the inside of the iron would immediately translate all of the energy into vibration (and some heat), some of which would make it through the nine inches to radiate outwards. But random - even very loud - noises inside... not so much. The "impact" of the inside air vibrating on the inside surface isn't going to be able to agitate the iron sufficiently to have it transfer outwards.
But again, it's a question of degree. The OP hasn't really said what the real scenario is. Is someone inside trying to get attention from someone with their back turned? Possibly doable. Are they trying to cast a spell without being heard? Trivial.