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At the direction from Sean, I'm remaking this thread. It's been marked as in the FAQ, but there's no directly corresponding FAQ entry.
The basic question is this:
When an ability says "cast spellname" as a prerequisite for anything, does a spell-like ability fulfill this prerequisite? If there's a feat that has "cast dimension door", does having a spell-like ability of dimension door count as this?
The FAQ makes it clear that spell-like abilities aren't spells, but this is a different question. It's whether something saying 'cast spellname' is the same as saying 'cast spellname or activate a spell-like ability'.
Please FAQ, and I'll send good vibes your way. They'll protect you from Cosmo's mustache.
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Follow-up thought: I assume you're thinking of the dimensional feats, specifically. If you read up on scrolls, they explicitly do say that you're "casting" a spell when you use a scroll. If belts of Strength can qualify you for Power Attack, it's at least arguable that a scroll of dimension door qualifies you for the dimensional feats. I'd guess most GMs wouldn't allow it, but it's nearly impossible for most characters to take the entire dimensional chain unless there's SOME flexibility made somewhere with the rules.
Here's the list I had of things this would affect last time...
Minor / Major Magic rogue talents.
The Dimensional Agility feat tree
Any place it says "cast spellname"
Skeleton Summoner feat
But it also has repercussions for things like counter-spelling or identifying spell-like ability effects using Spellcraft.
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Follow-up thought: I assume you're thinking of the dimensional feats, specifically. If you read up on scrolls, they explicitly do say that you're "casting" a spell when you use a scroll. If belts of Strength can qualify you for Power Attack, it's at least arguable that a scroll of dimension door qualifies you for the dimensional feats. I'd guess most GMs wouldn't allow it, but it's nearly impossible for most characters to take the entire dimensional chain unless there's SOME flexibility made somewhere with the rules.
A belt of strength has a permanent effect and it allow you to pick/use the feat only after 24 hours of use, when the bonus stop being a temporary one.
A scroll is a one shot item.to get the feat you would need at least an item that give you the ability to use dimension door once/day.
Personally I would require the ability to be inherent to the character, either SLA, SU or a spell.
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I don't disagree with you, but where does it say that in the rules? The prerequisite is "ability to cast dimension door." Having a scroll of dimension door on your person (especially if it's on your class spell list) undeniably grants you the ability to cast dimension door. Again, I think it's a little dubious, but I haven't found anything in the RAW that prevents it. And despite its dubiousness, the prerequisite requirements of that feat chain in particular are wayyyyy too demanding, which makes me feel like maybe its okay sometimes?
Either way, I don't want to derail the OP's thread, as this is only tacitly related. I guess at the very least he's getting bumps out of this, though... and I clicked FAQ for him when I first responded!
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Actually, to bring this all full circle, Cape of the Mountebank satisfies your suggestion that the item allow use of dimension door at least once a day, but isn't as clear as scrolls that "using" the spell is the same as "casting" it. So, I guess spell effects from magic items need the same clarification as spell-like abilities about whether or not usage of them counts as "casting."
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I don't disagree with you, but where does it say that in the rules? The prerequisite is "ability to cast dimension door." Having a scroll of dimension door on your person (especially if it's on your class spell list) undeniably grants you the ability to cast dimension door. Again, I think it's a little dubious, but I haven't found anything in the RAW that prevents it. And despite its dubiousness, the prerequisite requirements of that feat chain in particular are wayyyyy too demanding, which makes me feel like maybe its okay sometimes?
Either way, I don't want to derail the OP's thread, as this is only tacitly related. I guess at the very least he's getting bumps out of this, though... and I clicked FAQ for him when I first responded!
But as soon as you use the scroll you lose the magic item giving you access to the spell and so you lose the access to the feat as you don't have the prerequisites for it.
"I have feat XX but if I use the item that give me the feat I lose access to the feat, but I need to use the item to benefit from the feat."
Brain melt. :-)
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Yeah, but you gain it back if you buy another scroll. (:
Sure, but unless you have two copies of the scroll, you lose access to the feat when you need it.
You have the dimensional feats.
You cast your single scroll of dimension door.
You lose access to the feats.
You get at destination and can't use the feats.
Don't work.
Plus, the FAQ said something about items not counting as actual spellcasting.
Yea, I remembered that after I posted it and once the edit period passed :(
Minor / Major Magic rogue talents.
1.The rogue talents specifically say that the major talent requires the minor talent. Having the spell available by other means does not satisfy the requirement.
In this case, the question isn't about qualifying for Major Magic without Minor Magic, it's using either one to qualify for other things; such as using Minor Magic to qualify for Arcane Strike.
Well, still doesn't work as I mentioned elsewhere, that's exactly the kind of thing I meant and I'm glad you found this thread. Other thing was Arcane Trickster. That one comes up every now and then.
FAQ'd. Expecting good vibes.
Ok, Good vibes sent.
These entries might be what they are referring to when they say "answered in the FAQ"
No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spellcasting.
No. A spell-like ability is not a spell, having a spell-like ability is not part of a class's spell list, and therefore doesn't give the creature the ability to activate spell completion or spell trigger items.
Using these two entries, it looks like you actually have to have a spellcasting class grant you the spell, and spell like abilities don't count.
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Yeah, but you gain it back if you buy another scroll. (:Sure, but unless you have two copies of the scroll, you lose access to the feat when you need it.
You have the dimensional feats.
You cast your single scroll of dimension door.
You lose access to the feats.
You get at destination and can't use the feats.Don't work.
If, for some reason, you were using a magic item to qualify for qualify for power attack and lost the item, you would no longer qualify.
It has been stated previously that there was no issue with characters taking feats that they may become ineligible for at a future point in time. They simply loose access to the feat until they are once again eligible.
As for your example:
1. I have a second scroll. And a ring of spell storing holding a dimension door spell.
2. What if a wizard was casting DD from a scroll? Can he use Dimensional Agility?
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If you look at the Actions in Combat, it's "Cast a spell" and "Use spell-like ability".
In the Magic rules for spell-like abilities, it says "The user activates it mentally."
In the Universal Monster Rules entry on spell-like abilities, it consistently uses "use" rather than "cast".
Based off those three entries, I'd say they aren't "cast" therefore don't qualify as a prerequisite for anything that says "cast spellname".
It has been stated previously that there was no issue with characters taking feats that they may become ineligible for at a future point in time. They simply loose access to the feat until they are once again eligible.
This was somewhat reinforced recently with UCamp's details on retraining. If you look over the section regarding skill retraining it states that if the points you move around cause you to no longer qualify for a feat, you don't lose the feat but it becomes inactive until you re-qualify for it.
Of course, at the same time it notes that you can't retrain a feat that is a prerequisite for another feat that you intend to keep, so it appears the rules vary depending on the type of prerequisite.
To the original question, marking as FAQ. If it turns out that my Spell Dancer magus can't qualify for the Dimensional feat tree without 'wasting' a spell on Dimension Door, I'll be a sad panda. :P
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Using these two entries, it looks like you actually have to have a spellcasting class grant you the spell, and spell like abilities don't count.
Neither of those FAQs address the synthesist using Maker's Jump.
1. The ability description includes the word cast
2. The synthesist is not modifying a spell cast from a potion, scroll, staff or wand.
3. The synthesist does have dimension door on his spell list.
The question remains: can a synthesist use Maker's Jump in conjunction with Dimensional Agility.
If you look at the Actions in Combat, it's "Cast a spell" and "Use spell-like ability".
In the Magic rules for spell-like abilities, it says "The user activates it mentally."
In the Universal Monster Rules entry on spell-like abilities, it consistently uses "use" rather than "cast".
Based off those three entries, I'd say they aren't "cast" therefore don't qualify as a prerequisite for anything that says "cast spellname".
That's been my argument for a while now too. There are just enough SLAs that mention 'cast' that an official stance would be nice.
These entries might be what they are referring to when they say "answered in the FAQ"
No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spellcasting.
No. A spell-like ability is not a spell, having a spell-like ability is not part of a class's spell list, and therefore doesn't give the creature the ability to activate spell completion or spell trigger items.
Using these two entries, it looks like you actually have to have a spellcasting class grant you the spell, and spell like abilities don't count.
After the first thread got 'answered in FAQ', I was thinking those would cover it, but I was concerned that people would just counter that it was missed in the FAQ. If this gets the same response, then I was planning on assuming that those do cover it and therefore that spell-like abilities do not count for requirements that specify 'cast spellname'.
No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting
So the question is: Does a spell-like-ability count as "actual spellcasting?
From the other entry:
No. A spell-like ability is not a spell
So SLAs aren't spells. There's the answer. The FAQ doesn't reference this specific instance but it does make important rules clarifications that can be applied to other situations. You can't expect the FAQ to reference every situation.
Casting and using an SLA are the same thing so which word is used does not matter. What does matter is if the ability is an SLA. As of now SLA's can sub in for spells.
The question that should be getting asked to clear all of this up is "Can SLA's be used in place of spells when an ability calls for a spell to be cast"?
No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting
So the question is: Does a spell-like-ability count as "actual spellcasting?
From the other entry:
So SLAs aren't spells. There's the answer. The FAQ doesn't reference this specific instance but it does make important rules clarifications that can be applied to other situations. You can't expect the FAQ to reference every situation.
No. A spell-like ability is not a spell
That's a different question. I already mentioned that FAQ in the original post. If I thought there wasn't value in getting this specific topic in the FAQ, I wouldn't have made it :) There are enough people asking questions on this specific topic that don't think that FAQ applies that it would be nice to have a specific FAQ about this. Not necessary. But nice. It would definitely shorten many threads that pop up on this topic, which is always a good thing.
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow
Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?
Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.
Thanks!
Not quite what I expected, but still good to get it somewhere. :)
So they aren't spells, but they still count as spells for prerequisites, but they don't count as spells for activating spell trigger and spell completion items, and they don't count for giving a caster level for magic item creation feats, right?
These posts by Sean lead me to believe otherwise.
Specifically, this part:
SLAs are not spells. SLAs merely duplicate the effects of spells and can be disrupted like spells, but they don't come with the innate know-how of "a spell is element X, Y, and Z, combined for a specific effect," which is the sort of knowledge you need to incorporate a spell into a magic item. An SLA is "I think really hard, and this neat thing happens," it's a shorthand way of creating/manipulating a power that you don't actually understand. It's like knowing that you want to create a rabbit with glowing fur, and you have one guy who studied glowing jellyfish and understand how the genes work, and another guy who can cut open a glow-stick to let all the toxic glowing chemicals out.
emphasis mine.
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it's not at all clear in RAW text, but i think we can take spell trigger/completion rules to be fundamentally caring about spell lists/spell slots, which SLAs don't fulfill even though they count as casting a spell otherwise.
Spell-Like Abilities as Spells: Does a creature with a spell-like ability for the purpose of activating spell completion or spell trigger items?
No. A spell-like ability is not a spell, having a spell-like ability is not part of a class's spell list, and therefore doesn't give the creature the ability to activate spell completion or spell trigger items.
This came up recently, and SKR's wording here in the FAQ (and in other posts) "A spell-like ability is not a spell" is IMHO highly misleading and possibly ill advised to use (but notice that isn't the actual REASON given for the ruling, it is just an 'aside' to the stated reason which revolves around spell lists). SKR's phrasing "A spell-like ability is not a spell" should be REMOVED from the FAQ if that is not the party line here (that FAQ ruling still stands the exact same without that, as the issue still depends on spell lists).
Honestly, this latest FAQ is ENTIRELY IN LINE with my previous reading of things, but is conflicting with the other reading which denied that SLAs were spells (and which statements/phrasing by SKR lent some credence to). Given they work like spells, specifically have somatic/material/verbal components removed... i.e. needed to have them in the first place, i.e. BE SPELLS, i think assuming they are spells IS the best general rule.
SLAs don't give you a general CL so they don't fulfill general CL requirements of item crafting, although they do fulfill 'cast X spell' requirements.
this reminds me of related questions that had come up before but were not answered:
Are SLAs spells?
Magus Spell Combat and SLAs
a similar question would be whether effects that modify your spellcasting (such as sorceror BLs, or Spell Focus) affect SLAs. This FAQ doesn't directly address those, but given my previous reading is 100% in-line with this FAQ (and SKR's previous 'SLAs are not spells' phrasing is over-ruled by this FAQ), I feel that the answer for all of those is "SLAs work with effects modifying spells". Magus Spell Combat is probably the least likely to allow SLAs to be cast as part of it, just because of the distinct actions, but but otherwise things like Sorceror BLs/Spell Focus/etc should seemingly apply to SLAs as well. Paizo?
Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells.
They would give you Caster levels for creating an item... Your caster level is determined by your total Hit Dice.
SLAs having a CL to determine their effect (for that SLA in particular) does nothing to give you a CL in general, which is what is needed to fulfill "CL X" requirements of item crafting. Even if the item is using a spell which you have the SLA for (letting you meet that part of the requirement), you do not meet the separately stated CL requirement, which being separate and not otherwise qualified is requiring a CL in general (not just for one SLA). (If the requirement was 'cast X spell at CL Y' then an SLA could fulfill that requirement, but no items are written like that AFAIK)
...they are treated as the spell for everything except actual casting because all SLAs are Standard Actions.The Combat Chapter Actions definitely does not tell you this, but if you read the definition of SLAs in the Magic Chapter itself, it says:
Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Note the last bolded part. So IMHO, an SLA of a spell that is normal not a standard action, which use the same action type as that spell - instantaneous/swift action, full round, multi-rounds. Again, saying 'has a casting time of 1 standard action' make almost no sense unless the base assumption is that SLAs ARE spells and ARE spellcasting (just with their own specific exceptions/rules), if that is not the base assumption then that line should just say 'A SLA uses 1 standard action' like Cleave does.
BTW...
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is granted.
That rule is hideously inadequate, e.g. classes with SLAs that are not spell casters, and I'm not sure why Ranger/Bard style casters with SLAs should treat their not-copying-existing-spell SLAs as of lower level/DC than full casters with similar SLAs (at the same class level).
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow
Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?
Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.
Thank you.
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Ah hah, here's the exact post where sean explains the 'SLAs don't give general caster level' and 'SLAs can't be used for magic item creation.
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Specifically, this part:
SLAs are not spells. SLAs merely duplicate the effects of spells and can be disrupted like spells, but they don't come with the innate know-how of "a spell is element X, Y, and Z, combined for a specific effect," which is the sort of knowledge you need to incorporate a spell into a magic item. An SLA is "I think really hard, and this neat thing happens," it's a shorthand way of creating/manipulating a power that you don't actually understand. It's like knowing that you want to create a rabbit with glowing fur, and you have one guy who studied glowing jellyfish and understand how the genes work, and another guy who can cut open a glow-stick to let all the toxic glowing chemicals out.emphasis mine.
I found rules text that says otherwise, thus the new FAQ about crafting magic items with SLAs. Which pleases me, as I like the idea of a demon or whatever being able to craft magic items without having to take levels in a spellcasting class.
Would the game be simpler if spell-like abilities worked exactly like spells in every way possible? Hell yeah. But we inherited some 3.5 text and didn't get a chance to change it when making PF, so we're stuck with the little technicalities (such as spell trigger items). Ah, well.
Ah! That clears that up. Well then, I'll update my list.
So for clarity, do Bloodline Abilities/Spell Focus/etc apply to casting SLAs as well?
It's more of a corner case, but would Magus Spell Combat (if it allows casting other class' slots to begin with) allow casting SLAs as part of Spell Combat? (assuming the spell is also on the Magus list) Although only a Standard Action is mentioned in the Combat Chapter to use SLAs, their definition themself says they are just using the casting time of the spell, which seems compatable with Spell Combat's 'modification' of that...?
Likewise, can you use Rods of Metamagic with SLAs?
I found rules text that says otherwise, thus the new FAQ about crafting magic items with SLAs. Which pleases me, as I like the idea of a demon or whatever being able to craft magic items without having to take levels in a spellcasting class.
But what about independently stated Caster Level requirements?
As I understood it, having SLAs does NOT give you a Caster Level in general, just for that SLA.As I wrote, a requirement of "casting X spell at Y Caster Level" is met by an SLA of X spell at Y Caster Level,
but if "Caster Level Y" is an independently stated requirement, then you don't meet that by having SLA X at Y CL...?
Or are you saying that having SLAs does grant a Caster Level in general?
Does it matter whether or not the item being crafted is using spells you have SLAs for, or can your SLA derived CL fulfill the independently stated CL requirement and then you can have somebody else (or scroll) provide the needed spell?
Blood Line Abilities Count as SLAs as well...
The Bonus Spells would count but no other abilities.
I'm referring to the Arcana that do things like "Whenever you cast a spell with an energy descriptor that matches your draconic bloodline's energy type, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled."
I mean, broadly speaking, fulfilling the terms of a class ability or item (as to what works with it/is affected by it) can be seen as 'meeting a pre-req' but 'pre-req' also has a more specific usage, so I figured I would ask for clarity here.
So then that's why Augment Summons can affect the Summoner's spell-like ability of Summon Monster? That despite SLAs not being spells, they're still going to be affected by things that affect spells?
Man, you guys are flipping my whole SLA world-view around today :)
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So for clarity, do Bloodline Abilities/Spell Focus/etc apply to casting SLAs as well?
That's how we've been building our stat blocks.
It's more of a corner case, but would Magus Spell Combat (if it allows casting other class' slots to begin with) allow casting SLAs as part of Spell Combat? (assuming the spell is also on the Magus list)
No, because he actually has to be casting one of his magus spells from his magus spell list ("... [he] can also cast any spell from the magus spell list ..."), not a spell-like ability that happens to have the same name as a spell from the magus spell list.
(As a related example, a druid/magus who had flaming sphere prepared as a druid spell shouldn't be able to cast it with spell combat just because it's also on the magus spell list. Even if the druid/magus had flaming sphere prepared as a druid spell and a magus spell, he shouldn't be able to cast his druid copy of that spell as part of spell combat because spell combat is about casting your magus spells in melee combat, and I doubt the casting of a druid's flaming sphere works the same way as the magus spell.)
As I understood it, having SLAs does NOT give you a Caster Level in general, just for that SLA.
The FAQ now says otherwise (I don't think it ruled one way or the other before, though there may have been board posts from the design team about it leaning one way or the other), and has rules text in the Core Rulebook that supports using SLAs to craft magic items.
As I wrote, a requirement of "casting X spell at Y Caster Level" is met by an SLA of X spell at Y Caster Level,
Yes.
Or are you saying that having SLAs does grant a Caster Level in general?
Yes.
Does it matter whether or not the item being crafted is using spells you have SLAs for, or can your SLA derived CL fulfill the independently stated CL requirement and then you can have somebody else (or scroll) provide the needed spell?
It looks like we're accepting that SLAs (and having a caster level from SLAs) are good enough to allow you to craft magic items, and as long as all the requirements are being met (whether from spellcasting classes, SLAs, spell trigger items, or spell completion items), you can make it work. So a demon without the Scribe Scroll feat could team up with a wizard to create scrolls of the SLAs the demon has, using the normal cooperative crafting rules.
So then that's why Augment Summons can affect the Summoner's spell-like ability of Summon Monster? That despite SLAs not being spells, they're still going to be affected by things that affect spells?
Makes sense to me. Simpler, really.
(That brings up the question of metamagic feats and metamagic rods, but I think forbidding those with SLAs is cleaner just because you don't have spell levels for some SLAs, or don't know what their SLAs are, and have some abilities like a demon's summon which is listed as an SLA but doesn't duplicate a spell... helps avoid some weirdness if we keep that out of bounds, as the FAQ currently has it.)Man, you guys are flipping my whole SLA world-view around today :)
I am pleased that this ruling is simpler to implement and easier to remember... less navigating a maze of corner cases and exceptions.