Up to Prone and Tied Up in One Turn

[Aydin D'Ampfer]

This is more of me attempting to check that I have all the rules here correct, and that I am not missing something/misreading something to stop me:

Character is a Maneuver Master Monk (and some other class levels), and has Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Ki Throw, Binding Throw, and Equipment Trick (Rope).

If the character is next to a target that can be tripped and grappled, the turn goes as such (assume combat maneuvers are successful):

Declare using Flurry of Maneuvers.
Declare using Full Round Attack first.
Perform a Trip in place of the attack, activating Ki Throw.
Spend Swift Action to activate Binding Throw, perform a Grapple.
Use the free standard action provided by Flurry to perform a second Grapple, declaring to Tie Up.
Free Action release Grapple.

Because of Equipment Trick (Rope), the penalty to Tie Up is -5, but because they are prone, you get a +4 to grapple. This means you Tie Up with only a -1.

If all of this is correct, this character can take a creature from standing and combat ready to prone and helpless in one full round.

Is there anything incorrect about this series of actions?

Text References:

Tie Up:

Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.

Ki Throw:

Benefit: On a successful unarmed trip attack against a target your size or smaller, you may throw the target prone in any square you threaten rather than its own square. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and you cannot throw the creature into a space occupied by other creatures.

Binding Throw:

Benefit: After you successfully use the Ki Throw feat on an opponent, you can use a swift action to attempt a grapple combat maneuver against that opponent.

Equipment Trick (Rope):

Hogtie (Improved Grapple): When you attempt to tie up an opponent you are grappling, your penalty is only –5 instead of the normal –10.

[Byakko]

I had a read through, and that looks like a legitimate sequence of actions on first inspection.

However, I did spot this:

Quote:

Use the free standard action provided by Flurry to perform a second Grapple, declaring to Tie Up.

Flurry of Maneuvers doesn't grant you a free standard action. It lets you make one additional combat maneuver as part of the flurry. In this case, the difference doesn't matter, but it's good to keep your terminology straight.

[Otherwhere]

Flurry imposes a -2 to your CMB. Not huge, but that changes your -1 Tie Up to -3.

Otherwise, this looks legit!

[Sniggevert]

You have to pin them before you can tie them up.

[Otherwhere]

Sniggevert wrote:

You have to pin them before you can tie them up.

Pin is one option once you have successfully grappled someone. You can opt to Tie Up instead. (Unless you don't consider grappled as "otherwise restrained"?)

[Sniggevert]

Otherwhere wrote:

Sniggevert wrote:

You have to pin them before you can tie them up.

Pin is one option once you have successfully grappled someone. You can opt to Tie Up instead. (Unless you don't consider grappled as "otherwise restrained"?)

Pin is one option when you have successfully grappled someone.

Tie up is one option when you have successfully pinned someone.

Quote:

If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious

The "otherwise restrained" in this instance needs to be on par with either having the target pinned or unconscious. If simply grappled was enough, they would have used that instead of pinned in the conditions required.

[DM_Blake]

Pathfinder SRD, Combat, Grapple wrote:

Tie Up

If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.

Note the part I have bolded. This is the point of confusion.

It seems to let you try to tie him up when he is only grappled (not pinned), but it's harder, hence the grapple check with a -10 penalty. However, that seems to be a misreading.

I read this to say: "If he's helpless, you can tie him up. Yada yada. But if you're the one pinning him, e.g. YOU are grappling him AND trying to tie him up, then you must make this check". Otherwise, if he's pinned or otherwise restrained and YOU are NOT the one pinning him, then you can automatically tie him up."

But I know other people read it the way the OP reads it, that this bolded sentence in intended to add it as one option that can be performed on a standard grapple check. I think this is invalid because if they wanted it that way, they would have listed it as such rather than burying it in the middle of an option you can use against a pinned foe.

[Otherwhere]

So "otherwise restrained" is - what? - paralyzed, such as by Hold Person? (Asking for clarity, not challenging anyone's interpretation.)

What classifies as "otherwise restrained" if not grappled? "Helpless" is a no brainer, but that's not how they worded it. For me, grappled qualifies. Normally, that would need a second round before you could pin, tie up, damage, or move an opponent. His feat selection and class(es) allow him to do it in 1 round, but otherwise complies with the rules. IMHO.

[Bruno Breakbone]

Aydin D'Ampfer, Bruno suggest you check with your GM to determine if you need to have rope in hand to tie up or if pulling it out is assumed/included when tying someone up. If the former, you would be taking a -4 penalty to start a grapple with one hand. If the latter, everything looks good. The only tricky part is that for sequence to be effective as you level, you'll need to find a way to Enlarge regularly to handle Large creatures.

[Byakko]

I imagine they intend you to be able to use this on creatures who are similarly unable to move much if at all, based on GM discretion.

Being paralyzed, yes, is probably one case where it'd make sense to allow them to be tied up. The check might actually automatically succeed, as they can't move or resist at all (unlike being pinned, where they're still struggling).

[Aydin D'Ampfer]

Bruno Breakbone wrote:

Aydin D'Ampfer, Bruno suggest you check with your GM to determine if you need to have rope in hand to tie up or if pulling it out is assumed/included when tying someone up. If the former, you would be taking a -4 penalty to start a grapple with one hand. If the latter, everything looks good. The only tricky part is that for sequence to be effective as you level, you'll need to find a way to Enlarge regularly to handle Large creatures.

I started another thread asking that very question, about the rope and location/wielding.

Also, Potions of Enlarge Person. Lasts 1 minute, makes you big, costs only 50gp. Then you also have all sorts of room to Ki Throw them, too.