Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I was running off of the 2/month number that's been going around. And assuming that the various specials would remain special and not on that schedule.I'll tell you right now, they're not going to double (or even bump by 50%) the number of scenarios they come out with a month for 42 people. That would be really bad business sense. You can't just cater to the handful of hardcore.
By the way, are we talking about doubling, or even adding 50% more scenarios to the schedule? I don't think we should be, nor do I think we are.
I'm proposing 3 scenarios per month. That's 36 scenarios.
In Season 3 (I won't look at Season 4, because I believe that Season's numbers and patterns helped exacerbate this problem), there were 28 scenarios. Counting First Steps, the GenCon special, and the Grand Convocation, there were 33. Taking out The Midnight Mauler, as it had been published the prior year, there were 32 NEWLY DEVELOPED scenarios for Season 3.
So, I'm talking about an increase of 4 scenarios, a 12.5% increase over what was the most easily managed season I have had to manage for my players, to date. That's it. I think that is very reasonable growth.
Season 4 has, instead, gone backwards. Season 5, if Mark's hints are accurate (and why would I assume they aren't) will be just as bad. Meanwhile, the player base is growing by leaps and bounds.
They have to be on the schedule, because they have to be developed.
And, for what it's worth, I wasn't picking you out to say you're wrong with your assumptions. You just made the correctly worded statement to quote that a lot of other people are wondering about.
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But again, this is info Paizo can glean from their database: How many people are playing 24+ scenarios in a year? Anyone playing less than that isn't going to need more.I'll tell you this: as of today, we've released 20 scenarios so far this season. The number of people who have reported playing 18 or more of those? 42.
I'm going to second a question I saw at least one other person ask: How many people have played all of the 1-5 scenarios that were released this season?
Edit: More relevantly, how many people GMed each 1-5, but only once? More interestingly, in each of those games, how many people were playing their very first game? This is where things start to get interesting for me personally.
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I was running off of the 2/month number that's been going around. And assuming that the various specials would remain special and not on that schedule.They have to be on the schedule, because they have to be developed.
Different schedule I think. I could be wrong. Jessica Price was talking earlier about being able to produce two scenarios a month reliably.
I assumed those were the standard scenarios and things like First Steps and other specials were outside of that.Obviously they'd need to be scheduled, but they don't have to be on the 2/month schedule. Especially if they follow a different format, they wouldn't really fit.
Actually, I think the First Steps trilogy were handled as a special case, but, IIRC, the Exclusive is handled on the regular schedule as a normal scenario for development purposes, so that month, for us'ns with less than 4 stars, there is only one scenario available.
Also, strangely enough, on the next year's schedule, the re-release of the exclusive as a normal access scenario means that there is only one "new" scenario released that month, as well.
For Season 4, there are 28 scenarios listed under products.
4-EX is one of those scenarios.
4-15, which was 3-EX, is also one of the products, and was released with one new scenario on the month it came out.
4-Sp is also listed amongst those scenarios, but at least its access is open, with only the table minimum rule.
Season 5, unlike previous seasons, is only starting with 3 scenarios plus the Special, instead of 4 plus the Special. No new 7-11 for the first month of Season 5, unlike most previous seasons.
But, in previous seasons, the publishing schedule has bee 2 scenarios for 11 months, and 4 scenarios in one month, for an annual total of 26 scenarios, plus the Special and Exclusive.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I was running off of the 2/month number that's been going around. And assuming that the various specials would remain special and not on that schedule.They have to be on the schedule, because they have to be developed.
Different schedule I think. I could be wrong. Jessica Price was talking earlier about being able to produce two scenarios a month reliably.
I assumed those were the standard scenarios and things like First Steps and other specials were outside of that.Obviously they'd need to be scheduled, but they don't have to be on the 2/month schedule. Especially if they follow a different format, they wouldn't really fit.
See, I think the "2 per month" idea trapped them a little into the complacency that I'm complaining about. Everybody says "2 per month is normal." But it's not.
Up until this year July had 4 scenarios on the schedule, and August had 4 scenarios on the schedule (not counting the Grand Melee and the GenCon Special, by the way). This year that number is 2 and 3, with no Grand Melee (although there is another Bonekeep level, so we'll call it 3 and 3). So, we've lost 3 scenarios out of 10. That's not a small percentage.
But, because "2 per month" is normal, no one is seeing it that way, and Paizo sees what they are doing as adequate.
Carrying it out over the course of the year, that scenario loss is an 11% drop in playable content. If you compare the number of new scenarios that will (apparently) be available for Season 5 (24) with the number of new scenarios that were available for season 3 (32) that is a 25% drop.
And I won't even get into how nervous I am that September hasn't even made an appearance on the schedule, yet. Are there even going to be two scenarios that month? Considering Mark's and Erik's stance on development, I don't know if I'd want to make that bet.
Edit: Me and math ain't been gettin' along, lately...
Plus Bonekeep deserved a mention.
Removed a post. Refrain from Wizards-bashing.
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Cool numbers.
I think Paizo is doing a great job. They have done tremendous job opening up play availability. AP's, Modules, Free RPG Day.
In my opinion I think they are doing a great job. I think it would be cool for a couple extra exclusive scenario's. But 4 a month would be a bit to much 3 a month I also think would be to much.
A series of quests available for a limited time would be nice. It would offer a nice incentive to play.
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I have no way of pointing at my experience and qualifications and saying, "I think I know what I'm talking about," without reinforcing the fact that, in actuality, this is the internet, and I'm making a message board post.
Since Drogon cannot point to his own experience and qualifications, I just want to chime in as a witness and give credit where credit is due. As someone who has played about 50 scenarios at Drogon's store, I can attest that this man knows how to schedule and plan for a thriving PFS community. His store is unquestionably the epicenter for PFS play in the state of Colorado. Often the tables he schedules for the coming month fill up within hours of being announced. And yet, he does an amazing job of tracking his players' experience and giving his hard-core players consistent opportunities to play. If anything, the man is a scheduling savant. He is also a smart businessman who goes out of his way to foster new players and GMs. If Drogon is seeing a huge problem, I think the warning should be taken seriously.
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Drogon
I am going to use you as a semi typical example of how perceptions shape reality.
I would like to think that being in Paizo's backyard, and living 2 miles down the road from WotC HQ...I get to see, hear, and know things that most other folks don't have the chance to see, hear, or know first hand.
Tons of conventions that are locally supported by both crews of developers and writers and editors and designers and employees in general.
What you are saying is an example of how your perception is this, this, and this. With Erik responding in kind about the different things being done...and honestly a ton more not being mentioned. Vic also jumped in to give some data regarding percentages of play per season and scenario.
It is truly a fight, IMHO, of Paizo worrying about changing perceptions. There is a perception out there, by some or many or few, that Paizo is not doing as much as they SHOULD in this lull of WotC's lack of products in regards to the RPG world.
Erik, Vic...I'm of the opinion that y'all are staying true to your vision. That's awesome...but there is this perception which you will be fighting...that by doing nothing "special" in this vacuum of promotion from WotC, you are doing "nothing" and therefore are doing it wrong. Please guys take no offense when I say I've heard "Paizo is starting to look more like WotC" from some folks.
While I disagree with the above, it is a perception I hear and one I can understand.
Drogon...I believe this is more a struggle of perception instead of reality. I just spent a weekend hanging out with Ryan, Adam, and Jon at MisCon27 (shameless bump...go next year if you can). At their panels they spoke about how long it actually takes to steer the dreadnaught that is production. Wait till GenCon and you will be of my opinion...
Paizo is unfurling the sails, pulling out handkerchiefs and putting them up into the wind, and even using laundry on clothes lines to catch every ounce of wind that they can.
Their IP is going into an MMO, a card game, comics, miniatures both painted and not, tying their stories together across PFS, AP's, and novels to create a more immersive and persistant world of adventure, hiring MORE and MORE staff from the community, sending out more and more representatives to events...they just sent me to MisCon27.
Let me expand on this so it is very clear. Wizards was unable to maintain a commitment made to MisCon27, and pulled out as the guest of honor. Paizo was asked to step in, and we ran over 60 tables at their event. I saw 1 table of DND 3.5, and no 4.0 games.
I was offered the chance to go to this convention as a guest of honor for Paizo and help build a more permanent community. I was curious why I was being sent...but when I got there everyone was asking me "Are you the super volunteer!? Dude, tell me about PFS? How do we get it started here!?" I was also being sent because about half the staff will be traveling in the next month, not counting Paizocon, GenCon, and PAX Prime. Going to different trade shows, conventions, and media visits.
I agree with an old statement I heard once... when DND split their worlds into greyhawk, dragonlance, etc etc they fractured their IP and split their customer base in a detrimental way they could never hope to keep up production with.
Paizo's dreadnaught of a ship is steering to catch every windfall that WotC is leaving behind, but it won't land in port right away. Wait till GenCon...when the goods are unloaded, and you are standing in the ballroom and ask yourself where the competition is.
They are by no means ignoring or disrespecting WotC by what they are doing, and to make things clear neither am I or wish to come across as such in this post.
What I am trying to communicate to the best of my ability is that Paizo is capturing more and more and more of the customers out there by doing what they have successfully done best, and until it stops working why should they change it? Paizo will continue to innovate and lead, and until WotC forces a drastic change...Paizo is doing it right IMHO.
It's very difficult to stare down your "father" and compete with them in the same industry. Paizo has already done that once, and is currently on the up and up of it. Now that "father" is circling the wagons for a come back...Paizo is keeping an eye on the beholder, and the other on the horizon.
I've gotten my handkerchief out, and I'll be catching as much wind for Pathfinder as I can.
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As an aside, I would point out that one way to alter the ratio of low to high level scenarios for oneself is to take experience for your lower levels at regular speed and then shift to "slow-track" for your higher level scenarios. That way you can consume more high level scenarios with your existing characters while you wait for more low level scenarios to publish.
One problem with this, though, is that it separates the more experienced players from the new players, inhibiting a sense of society among the group.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Thank you for the well reasoned post, Kyle.
I know you're going to sigh and say, "Well, I tried," after reading this, but here goes:
I'm not disputing that Paizo is capturing more customers, nor am I disputing that they are doing more with Pathfinder this year than they did last (and more again next year than they are this year). I am certainly not in dispute of the fact that they are doing a better job (BY FAR) with Pathfinder and Golarion than TSR or WotC ever did with D&D and it's multitude of worlds. They are also one of the best companies I've ever seen with PR and customer service (I mean, c'mon, how many company's owners will come onto a thread like this and actually reply?).
I am saying that PFS is getting short shrift in all that.
That's it.
Due to how much the company has grown, and due to how much that means they have to handle, attention to PFS is not what it once was.
The complacency that I'm mentioning is the fact that they're okay with that. They're making money, the player base is growing, people are generally happy, organizers like you and I are keeping our groups in order, etc. But they are in danger of taking all that for granted and getting blindsided by the growing pains they are creating with their wild success. There is a chink in the armor, so to speak, and a smart company like WotC can exploit it.
And that is, admittedly, only a possibility. I'd just rather not even have the possibility, much less see it happen.
PFS should be a strength. And with everything in place that it has (a huge player base, an awesome corps of volunteers, a phenomenal campaign director, better scenarios, better story, etc.) this should not be hard to accomplish. But by letting small things like how many scenarios there are slip, or by not letting those volunteers know how much they mean, they're instead turning it into a weakness.
And understand, please, that I started this a YEAR ahead of any real threat. I'm TRYING to give them the time to act, instead of being forced to react.
I hope that helps shed light on my perspective. Again.
Edit: Thank you, Mimo. We still miss you in Denver. Nice to see you're still connected out there in the sticks of Ohio. (-:
Developer
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I was running off of the 2/month number that's been going around. And assuming that the various specials would remain special and not on that schedule.They have to be on the schedule, because they have to be developed.
Different schedule I think. I could be wrong. Jessica Price was talking earlier about being able to produce two scenarios a month reliably.
I assumed those were the standard scenarios and things like First Steps and other specials were outside of that.Obviously they'd need to be scheduled, but they don't have to be on the 2/month schedule. Especially if they follow a different format, they wouldn't really fit.
Everything has to happen on the schedule, whether it's one of our standard monthly products or an additional project for a special occasion. The primary reason for this is that if it's not on the schedule, it doesn't get done. We outline and assign scenarios (and any other PDF-only content) roughly 6 or 7 months before it ever sees the light of day. If a scenario or a quest or an update to the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play isn't on the schedule at least that far ahead of time, it just doesn't get done. And it's not as easy as simply adding something to the schedule now that we hope to see in a few months. Whichever developer is concepting, outlining, assigning, and corresponding with the author(s) needs to have time now to do that. If we're (for example) in the ramp-up to PaizoCon, Gen Con, or another particularly taxing time on the department, then that staffer has more pressing deadlines to deal with than a new, additional project that wasn't accounted for when his workload for this week was being set months prior.
So even assuming we have the bandwidth right now to increase our output on the Pathfinder Society line (or any of our other product lines for that matter)—and I'm not saying we don't, just that it's an assessment that takes time and consideration to make and isn't necessarily one we'd make public—we'd need to plan time into the project schedule well in advance of even when the project would need to be assigned in order to ensure everything stays on track.
It's clear from this thread that we need to really look at what we're offering as part of the Pathfinder Society campaign both in terms of the campaign's own needs and in light of whatever our competition may have planned in the coming months or years. But there are myriad moving parts involved in making the sorts of sweeping product offering level decisions that it seems people want immediately. Does this mean we may change things to better serve the needs of the campaign? You bet. Does it mean any of those changes, whatever form they may take, will be revealed to anyone outside Paizo soon? Not likely. I'd wager that any change we made to the campaign would take 9 months on the low end before anyone even knew about it.
So even if we decided tomorrow that we feel confident we can reliably put out 3 scenarios a month without it throwing off any of our other tightly-scheduled product lines, we'd need to make sure that we had the internal resources available to do the front-end work on those additional products while still ensuring the current development, editing, layout, and other job duties didn't fall behind. So I ask for everyone asking for changes or enhancements to our campaign offerings to have patience, as an instant response to something on this or a similar thread wouldn't be seen for as much as a year or more.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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It's clear from this thread that we need to really look at what we're offering as part of the Pathfinder Society campaign both in terms of the campaign's own needs and in light of whatever our competition may have planned in the coming months or years. But there are myriad moving parts involved in making the sorts of sweeping product offering level decisions that it seems people want immediately. Does this mean we may change things to better serve the needs of the campaign? You bet. Does it mean any of those changes, whatever form they may take, will be revealed to anyone outside Paizo soon? Not likely. I'd wager that any change we made to the campaign would take 9 months on the low end before anyone even knew about it.
Good thing I got all grouchy 15 months ahead of schedule. d-:
In all seriousness, Mark has pointed this out to all of us time and time again. I'd like to think I listened to him at least once, and that's why I am saying all this now, instead of getting all up in his grill next March.
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As an aside, I would point out that one way to alter the ratio of low to high level scenarios for oneself is to take experience for your lower levels at regular speed and then shift to "slow-track" for your higher level scenarios. That way you can consume more high level scenarios with your existing characters while you wait for more low level scenarios to publish.
One problem with this, though, is that it separates the more experienced players from the new players, inhibiting a sense of society among the group.
If you do that, you end up running out of high tier scenarios. The scenario numbers are pretty balanced low vs high tier (see HERE).
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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As an aside, I would point out that one way to alter the ratio of low to high level scenarios for oneself is to take experience for your lower levels at regular speed and then shift to "slow-track" for your higher level scenarios. That way you can consume more high level scenarios with your existing characters while you wait for more low level scenarios to publish.
One problem with this, though, is that it separates the more experienced players from the new players, inhibiting a sense of society among the group.
If you do that, you end up running out of high tier scenarios. The scenario numbers are pretty balanced low vs high tier (see HERE).
Gah! You stole my opening!
PS - If you go to her link, read the rest of the thread. It has some interesting viewpoints and good correlation with this thread.
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As an aside, I would point out that one way to alter the ratio of low to high level scenarios for oneself is to take experience for your lower levels at regular speed and then shift to "slow-track" for your higher level scenarios. That way you can consume more high level scenarios with your existing characters while you wait for more low level scenarios to publish.
One problem with this, though, is that it separates the more experienced players from the new players, inhibiting a sense of society among the group.
If you do that, you end up running out of high tier scenarios. The scenario numbers are pretty balanced low vs high tier (see HERE).
Yes, historically that has been true, but a recurring theme of the previous 285 posts is that there were not enough low tier scenarios in season 4. I meant to suggest that one can shift to low speed for a level or two, as needed, to balance out the availability in their area.
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In all seriousness, Mark has pointed this out to all of us time and time again. I'd like to think I listened to him at least once, and that's why I am saying all this now, instead of getting all up in his grill next March.
Please refrain from getting "up in his grill" at all. Mark, like everyone else on the production team, works very hard to make the best products he can. We welcome -- and value -- sincere feedback from our customers, including critical feedback, but that is not an open invitation to be rude, belligerent, or harassing toward individuals on the team. Thanks!
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Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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Due to how much the company has grown, and due to how much that means they have to handle, attention to PFS is not what it once was.
Balderdash.
We have weekly meetings attended by Mark, John, Mike, our marketing director Jenny, and our publisher, me.
PFS has a larger budget and more full-time employees than it ever has.
It does not yet have more scenarios. We're working on that.
But this whole idea that we're not paying attention to PFS, or that we've gotten complacent or whatever is garbage.
And as such, I'm going to bow out of this discussion completely. Drogon, thanks for your tireless work on behalf of the campaign (and I do mean that very, very sincerely).
One day, we'll get it up to 3 scenarios a month.
By the time you come around to complain that we should be doing 4 or 6, I'll probably have gotten less frustrated with you and will engage that argument on its own terms.
For now, I'm done.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Due to how much the company has grown, and due to how much that means they have to handle, attention to PFS is not what it once was.
Balderdash.
We have weekly meetings attended by Mark, John, Mike, our marketing director Jenny, and our publisher, me.
PFS has a larger budget and more full-time employees than it ever has.
It does not yet have more scenarios. We're working on that.
But this whole idea that we're not paying attention to PFS, or that we've gotten complacent or whatever is garbage.
And as such, I'm going to bow out of this discussion completely. Drogon, thanks for your tireless work on behalf of the campaign (and I do mean that very, very sincerely).
One day, we'll get it up to 3 scenarios a month.
By the time you come around to complain that we should be doing 4 or 6, I'll probably have gotten less frustrated with you and will engage that argument on its own terms.
For now, I'm done.
Sigh. I should take a page from Mark's book and not speak in absolutes. I stared at that post for a bit and thought, "I should stick something on the end of that." If I had, I would have said something along the lines of "comparing how many play PFS now vs. how many played during Season 3."
What's done is done, though.
Sorry I ticked you off.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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In all seriousness, Mark has pointed this out to all of us time and time again. I'd like to think I listened to him at least once, and that's why I am saying all this now, instead of getting all up in his grill next March.Please refrain from getting "up in his grill" at all. Mark, like everyone else on the production team, works very hard to make the best products he can. We welcome -- and value -- sincere feedback from our customers, including critical feedback, but that is not an open invitation to be rude, belligerent, or harassing toward individuals on the team. Thanks!
O.o
Am I offending? If I am, I apologize. I'm not going to deny that I get pretty direct when I debate, but that response to Mark up there was anything but an attempt to be rude, harassing, or belligerent. In fact, I was agreeing with him, and trying to make light of the fact that everyone is seeing me as "on the attack," when I'm trying very hard not to be.
Whelp. Now that I've publicly pissed of two Paizo employees, I'm going to bed...
In all seriousness, Mark has pointed this out to all of us time and time again. I'd like to think I listened to him at least once, and that's why I am saying all this now, instead of getting all up in his grill next March.Please refrain from getting "up in his grill" at all. Mark, like everyone else on the production team, works very hard to make the best products he can. We welcome -- and value -- sincere feedback from our customers, including critical feedback, but that is not an open invitation to be rude, belligerent, or harassing toward individuals on the team. Thanks!O.o
Am I offending? If I am, I apologize. I'm not going to deny that I get pretty direct when I debate, but that response to Mark up there was anything but an attempt to be rude, harassing, or belligerent. In fact, I was agreeing with him, and trying to make light of the fact that everyone is seeing me as "on the attack," when I'm trying very hard not to be.
Ah, sorry, I must have read it wrong -- humor can be hard to "hear" on the internet, as we don't have cues like tone of voice or facial expression, and things that are said in person with a smile can sound different in print.
However, there seems to be a lot of focus on Mark, which is understandable as he's one of the faces of PFS. But every product that comes out of here is touched by a lot of people before it goes out the door -- since every product's production cycle is pretty much a chain of dependencies, there's no one individual that has complete control over how long a product takes to come out. So I think that this sort of criticism is probably more properly directed to the company, or at least to the PFS program, rather than to individuals. :-)
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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In all seriousness, Mark has pointed this out to all of us time and time again. I'd like to think I listened to him at least once, and that's why I am saying all this now, instead of getting all up in his grill next March.Please refrain from getting "up in his grill" at all. Mark, like everyone else on the production team, works very hard to make the best products he can. We welcome -- and value -- sincere feedback from our customers, including critical feedback, but that is not an open invitation to be rude, belligerent, or harassing toward individuals on the team. Thanks!O.o
Am I offending? If I am, I apologize. I'm not going to deny that I get pretty direct when I debate, but that response to Mark up there was anything but an attempt to be rude, harassing, or belligerent. In fact, I was agreeing with him, and trying to make light of the fact that everyone is seeing me as "on the attack," when I'm trying very hard not to be.
Ah, sorry, I must have read it wrong -- humor can be hard to "hear" on the internet, as we don't have cues like tone of voice or facial expression, and things that are said in person with a smile can sound different in print.
However, there seems to be a lot of focus on Mark, which is understandable as he's one of the faces of PFS. But every product that comes out of here is touched by a lot of people before it goes out the door -- since every product's production cycle is pretty much a chain of dependencies, there's no one individual that has complete control over how long a product takes to come out. So I think that this sort of criticism is probably more properly directed to the company, or at least to the PFS program, rather than to individuals. :-)
Thank you for seeing that and making me feel a bit better.
And, yes, I have seen that aspect of all of your work. I only name Mark because he's been willing in the past to reply on these topics. Again, I try very hard not to assign credit improperly and work hard at being fair. Mark, like Mike, like Eric, has done wonders for the game I love. I have no quibble with that.
I've said it before, but I'll happily say it again: No one comes to these boards and complains because they don't like you. Quite the contrary, they come here and complain because they think you're awesome. I, too, am in that group. I'm complaining because I think you're awesome.
I guess I just don't want you to let up, even a little.
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But by letting small things like how many scenarios there are slip, or by not letting those volunteers know how much they mean, they're instead turning it into a weakness.
Emphasis mine.
I want to mention this now cause this is, I think, the second time you have brought up the volunteers (by which I assume you mean VOs and those GMs who volunteer at cons) not being told how much they are appreciated.
I cant speak for being a volunteer at a con other than a handfull of ones in my area, but I have been a VL for just over a year now. I have never felt that Paizo has taken advantage of my volunteerism or wasnt appreciative of the time and effort I (and my wife) put into this job. They have supported and supplied me far beyond my expectations.
And to be frank, if you could see some of the behind-the-curtain magic that happens as I have seen it over this past year, I think at least a couple of your concerns would fall by the wayside.
They do take our input into consideration if and when possible. Other companies do this as well, Im sure, and perhaps this is just because of my place as a volunteer for Paizo, but I feel like Paizo does more listening to its fans and volunteers than just about any other company out there.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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But by letting small things like how many scenarios there are slip, or by not letting those volunteers know how much they mean, they're instead turning it into a weakness.Emphasis mine.
I want to mention this now cause this is, I think, the second time you have brought up the volunteers (by which I assume you mean VOs and those GMs who volunteer at cons) not being told how much they are appreciated.
I cant speak for being a volunteer at a con other than a handfull of ones in my area, but I have been a VL for just over a year now. I have never felt that Paizo has taken advantage of my volunteerism or wasnt appreciative of the time and effort I (and my wife) put into this job. They have supported and supplied me far beyond my expectations.
And to be frank, if you could see some of the behind-the-curtain magic that happens as I have seen it over this past year, I think at least a couple of your concerns would fall by the wayside.
They do take our input into consideration if and when possible. Other companies do this as well, Im sure, and perhaps this is just because of my place as a volunteer for Paizo, but I feel like Paizo does more listening to its fans and volunteers than just about any other company out there.
It's that "speaking in absolutes" thing tripping up my ability to be fully understood, again.
There are plenty of ways in which volunteers are acknowledged. This is a company that is very good at giving and receiving feedback. I personally feel that I get plenty of acknowledgment (after all, there is more than one Paizo employee up there telling me "thank you" despite the argument).
But there are several threads out there where GMs have said, "Hey, I feel like I'm doing all the work in my area, and I could get more people to help me out if..." and those threads have had very little response. Mostly, it's been response from Venture Officers telling those people that they should ONLY be doing what they're doing for the love of the game, and that ANY acknowledgment is adequate. But considering how many voices have been raised against those VOs, it seems to me that a little more effort could make a lot of difference.
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Here is where I feel the need to comment as well. As seth has stated there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes. I wish I could tell you, but I can't. I agree with your concerns Drogon, but like Seth said if you knew some of the stuff that is discussed with venture officers you would not have the concerns you do quite so much. I really feel the need to point out that paizo does listen to its fans, and its volunteers.
As for the GMS that complain about the rewards that is where I draw the line. I have people in my region that never gm, I have people that can gm and practically refuse to instead playing all the time and I have people that gm very frequently for me. When I started PFS in my local area there was nothing. In 3 months I was a VL. In the year and 3 months since we started pfs in my area we have grown to 5 tables a week in a town of 50k people. I have personally organized the VO Custom Dice order that over 50 VO joined together to order more than 6k dice to give to players and gms and anyone else as rewards. Oh and this was a worldwide effort. We had a certain paizo employee hand carry them to europe to help us out with shipping. I personally counted those dice 3 times, sorted them and mailed them out. If you have more ideas I would be glad to hear them, but to be honest I think I personally go above and beyond for my gms and players, and a lot of other Venture Officers do as well. In the year that I have been playing I have gmed 100 games, and I have played 27. If anyone has a right to complain about not getting to play enough I am one of them, but I do this for my love of the game. Yes I would like to play more and we are getting to the point in my region for that to be possible for me. I know you are not saying there is no recognition, and that it is other people saying that but to me, those other people may or may not have valid arguments. I think paizo does an excellent job of what they do. Upset people tend to complain the most vs happy people. These boards are living proof. Maybe I am too cynical when it comes to this stuff, but more often than not I look at these people that post complaining about something and they have no stars next to their names, have no pfs characters registered on their account and just want to complain at how crappy paizo is of a company. Like I said above I understand that not everyone is cut out to gm, but without the awesome people that step up and run and organize events we would have no game at all and I think paizo recognizes that effort.
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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Balderdash.
We have weekly meetings attended by Mark, John, Mike, our marketing director Jenny, and our publisher, me.
PFS has a larger budget and more full-time employees than it ever has.
It does not yet have more scenarios. We're working on that.
But this whole idea that we're not paying attention to PFS, or that we've gotten complacent or whatever is garbage.
And as such, I'm going to bow out of this discussion completely. Drogon, thanks for your tireless work on behalf of the campaign (and I do mean that very, very sincerely).
One day, we'll get it up to 3 scenarios a month.
By the time you come around to complain that we should be doing 4 or 6, I'll probably have gotten less frustrated with you and will engage that argument on its own terms.
For now, I'm done.
It is good to hear how passionate you are for this company that you have helped found and Pathfinder in particular. Equally, it is nice to know that steps are already being taken to move PFS into that growth. I trust that between you, Mike Brock, John Compton, Mark Moreland, and all the rest involved in PFS, we will see that growth happen and flourish. I, for one, am content to wait and see how this unfolds.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Gulf
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I started out a long time ago in Florida organizing conventions at the collapse of LG and through other organized play campaigns. For a while there it was only a few of us left doing the work. It was tough.
We have had great success the past two years, we have some great VOs in the state who give a lot to the hobby. It has had a cascade effect, energizing and motivating better than any one group.
The analogy of sails, handkerchiefs and bed sheets on the barque of Paizo is good, and I should add the guys we don't always see. The rowers at HQ who do all the little things and plan ahead. I admire how they know the community, listen and perfect what others say can't be done.
I have never been volunteering for any other reason but a pure selfish motive. More people playing means more chances we all get to play. I love this hobby, and have played my entire adult life of (mumble mumble) years. The recognition Mike Brock gave us when he visited Megacon was a high point of my gaming experience, and I only see following seas ahead!
Paizo has my good will and trust. I know that I may not always agree, but they have proved me wrong every dang time.
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It's that "speaking in absolutes" thing tripping up my ability to be fully understood, again.
There are plenty of ways in which volunteers are acknowledged. This is a company that is very good at giving and receiving feedback. I personally feel that I get plenty of acknowledgment (after all, there is more than one Paizo employee up there telling me "thank you" despite the argument).
But there are several threads out there where GMs have said, "Hey, I feel like I'm doing all the work in my area, and I could get more people to help me out if..." and those threads have had very little response. Mostly, it's been response from Venture Officers telling those people that they should ONLY be doing what they're doing for the love of the game, and that ANY acknowledgment is adequate. But considering how many voices have been raised against those VOs, it seems to me that a little more effort could make a lot of difference.
I was under no impression that you were speaking in absolutes, I'm just offering the perspective of someone on the other side of the coin from you, though your perspective is arguably different from that of a normal player/GM, since you own a store also...so apparently this is at least a 3-sided coin...
Also, Im not going to get drawn into a debate on whether or not every receives enough acknowledgement to feel appreciated. That is an individual issue which has to be handled on an individual level.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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It's that "speaking in absolutes" thing tripping up my ability to be fully understood, again.
There are plenty of ways in which volunteers are acknowledged. This is a company that is very good at giving and receiving feedback. I personally feel that I get plenty of acknowledgment (after all, there is more than one Paizo employee up there telling me "thank you" despite the argument).
But there are several threads out there where GMs have said, "Hey, I feel like I'm doing all the work in my area, and I could get more people to help me out if..." and those threads have had very little response. Mostly, it's been response from Venture Officers telling those people that they should ONLY be doing what they're doing for the love of the game, and that ANY acknowledgment is adequate. But considering how many voices have been raised against those VOs, it seems to me that a little more effort could make a lot of difference.
I was under no impression that you were speaking in absolutes, I'm just offering the perspective of someone on the other side of the coin from you, though your perspective is arguably different from that of a normal player/GM, since you own a store also...so apparently this is at least a 3-sided coin...
Also, Im not going to get drawn into a debate on whether or not every receives enough acknowledgement to feel appreciated. That is an individual issue which has to be handled on an individual level.
Agreed.
For what it's worth, I actually want nothing to do with a debate, myself (despite having trapped myself into one). I just want ideas to be put forth by all of us. Good or bad, just lay them out. That's what brainstorming is.
We have plenty of time to figure out how to implement those ideas, and Paizo has plenty of time to figure out whether implementing them is worthwhile.
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I want to mention this now cause this is, I think, the second time you have brought up the volunteers (by which I assume you mean VOs and those GMs who volunteer at cons) not being told how much they are appreciated.
Venture Officers are compensated for their time.
Whether that compensation is sufficient is a matter on which I'm not qualified to comment. If it's not, that's something VOs should take up with campaign leadership. But there is a schedule of compensation, including free product, which means it's not a "volunteer" position per se.
Now, compensation isn't the same as reward. So a GM at a con--especially a GM who organizes a con--might get some tchotchkes and I would still count them as a volunteer.
But I have to insist that appreciation for Venture Officers and appreciation for campaign volunteers are two separate issues.
Edit: One, I'm not arguing that either group is morally superior to the other, so don't start on that crap. Two, I recognize that there are other conditions that can remove someone from volunteer status--Drogon, for instance, has mentioned several times that he does this because it brings him business. We all make the choice to be involved, but some of us are compensated and some of us aren't, and all I'm saying is that I think those should be considered separate categories.
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I want to mention this now cause this is, I think, the second time you have brought up the volunteers (by which I assume you mean VOs and those GMs who volunteer at cons) not being told how much they are appreciated.Venture Officers are compensated for their time.
Whether that compensation is sufficient is a matter on which I'm not qualified to comment. If it's not, that's something VOs should take up with campaign leadership. But there is a schedule of compensation, including free product, which means it's not a "volunteer" position per se.
If you voluntarily did 30+ hours of work for someone who, in thanks, bought you lunch one day at McDonalds, would you call that 'compensation'? I wouldnt. I'd call it you volunteered for a job and got a small thank you in return.
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If you voluntarily did 30+ hours of work for someone who, in thanks, bought you lunch one day at McDonalds, would you call that 'compensation'? I wouldnt. I'd call it you volunteered for a job and got a small thank you in return.
Whether that compensation is sufficient is a matter on which I'm not qualified to comment. If it's not, that's something VOs should take up with campaign leadership. But there is a schedule of compensation, including free product, which means it's not a "volunteer" position per se.
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Yes, Patrick, I saw that the first time I posted it. It's no more correct now than it was then. There is a difference between compensation and a small thank you being imparted on someone for their service.
Agreed.
For what it's worth, I actually want nothing to do with a debate, myself (despite having trapped myself into one). I just want ideas to be put forth by all of us. Good or bad, just lay them out. That's what brainstorming is.
We have plenty of time to figure out how to implement those ideas, and Paizo has plenty of time to figure out whether implementing them is worthwhile.
I like the idea, Drogon, but I suggest that if you want to have a brainstorming thread about positive things youd like to see in PFS, I'd suggest starting a new thread for that, instead of trying to turn this one into it.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I like the idea, Drogon, but I suggest that if you want to have a brainstorming thread about positive things youd like to see in PFS, I'd suggest starting a new thread for that, instead of trying to turn this one into it.Agreed.
For what it's worth, I actually want nothing to do with a debate, myself (despite having trapped myself into one). I just want ideas to be put forth by all of us. Good or bad, just lay them out. That's what brainstorming is.
We have plenty of time to figure out how to implement those ideas, and Paizo has plenty of time to figure out whether implementing them is worthwhile.
Nope, not gonna do it.
Honestly, that was the intent of this thread. Seriously. But instead of seeing the, "Don't ignore this, and let's discuss ideas about how to prepare for it," the thread became a debate about the validity of whether ideas were even necessary. Seeing as we've already covered that debate, here, there is no need to revisit it in another thread.
I've covered plenty of ideas in this post. I will happily see those ideas further discussed from this point on.
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Nope, not gonna do it.
Honestly, that was the intent of this thread. Seriously. But instead of seeing the, "Don't ignore this, and let's discuss ideas about how to prepare for it," the thread became a debate about the validity of whether ideas were even necessary. Seeing as we've already covered that debate, here, there is no need to revisit it in another thread.
I've covered plenty of ideas in this post. I will happily see those ideas further discussed from this point on.
And there are good suggestions, but 3 of them (bulletpoints 3-5) are all generic 'lets come up with something to do X', instead of actual suggestions to accomplish X.
Do you have anything more specific for those?
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But there are several threads out there where GMs have said, "Hey, I feel like I'm doing all the work in my area, and I could get more people to help me out if..." and those threads have had very little response. Mostly, it's been response from Venture Officers telling those people that they should ONLY be doing what they're doing for the love of the game, and that ANY acknowledgment is adequate. But considering how many voices have been raised against those VOs, it seems to me that a little more effort could make a lot of difference.
I'll going to jump into this conversation at this point. I'm not anyone special, I'm not a soiree owner, I'm not a VO, and I don't have four stars. I'm just a run of the mill person who organizes events at a game store on a monthly basis.
Or I should say was, as after this month I'm stepping down as an event organizer.
And one of the reason why I'm stepping down is because of the way some of the VO's on this forum called me unreasonable just because I said that a automated system that sends thank you's to GM's would be a good idea. And that I should be doing what I do because I love the game.
Well I don't love the game, I love the hobby.
I don't love having to pay to market a game and support organized play out of my own pocket. It sucks to sit on a bus for an hour to get to a gameday where you have to run two slots back to back and not have enough money to pay for food because your extra income went to buying the scenarios for the other GM's to run, because if you didn't they wouldn't run. It sucks, especially when I'm called unreasonable because I think it be nice for the company that I'm marketing for to send out an automated thank you. And when I stop running Paizo probably won't even notice the difference and the only people who will care are the people who lose out on the gameday.
Now the reason why I'm mention this is to reinforce the type of person that Drogan is talking about and also to explain why I'm going to switch to organizing D&D Next's organize play when it comes out. I will switch to Next because I love this Hobby and if WotC continues their free Organized Play platform it will allow me to organize games for people to have fun without having to carry the cost of marketing a company on myself.
And when Next comes out that is something they will have to compete with, a company that won't pass the marketing bill onto the customers via organized play.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Nope, not gonna do it.
Honestly, that was the intent of this thread. Seriously. But instead of seeing the, "Don't ignore this, and let's discuss ideas about how to prepare for it," the thread became a debate about the validity of whether ideas were even necessary. Seeing as we've already covered that debate, here, there is no need to revisit it in another thread.
I've covered plenty of ideas in this post. I will happily see those ideas further discussed from this point on.
And there are good suggestions, but 3 of them (bulletpoints 3-5) are all generic 'lets come up with something to do X', instead of actual suggestions to accomplish X.
Do you have anything more specific for those?
I do. (-:
But I'm hoping to drag some out of everyone else, as well.
I would go into details, but I have a friend in from out of town, and am doing him a disservice by paying even peripheral attention to this thread. I will certainly post more thoughts as my time frees up, but please don't see my silence over the next few days on this as lack of interest. I'll be back, and more prolific, soon.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Well, I'll say this to those three vague points:
1) GM recognition has been discussed ad nauseum in another thread. Local lodges often do a great job of it, but sometimes it's nice to be recognized by Paizo too.
2) Paizo can support new PFS players better by building better pregens and putting together a solid "quick start" guide to PFS. There are various documents, but a shorter one would be nice. I'd envision a page on character creation, a page outlining a couple of classes, a page on combat and a page on the campaign setting.
3) Paizo can definitively make PFS better than a competing OP by addressing the other 4 points that Drogon raised.
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I can elaborate a little on my points that Drogon referenced.
Paizo's ability to justify greater support for PFS is related to reporting. As Vic eluded to earlier the best Paizo has is a minimum play count. So the more we can entice players/GMs to utilize Paizo's website for PFS play the better Paizo's play metrics will represent reality. As it is all we have is a "Please report the game" system. There is zero reason to go through with it other than a sense of personal responsibility. We can't even rely on the star system to promote recording because a lot of times the person reporting is not the GM. I should know, I have more GM'd games than reported because of lazy coordinators who loose paperwork. We need better incentives for reporting.
My idea was to add utility and ease to the way we as players and GM find, sign up for, discuss, and report games. If more of these steps are utilized through Paizo's website, those games are more likely to be reported. In addition, if Paizo has their own mustering system they have much more data in regards to actual games that are scheduled vs reported and they can utilize that info to gently remind coordinators to report their mustered games.
I also think that the more we can draw PFS players into utilizing the Paizo site for game organization, the more likely we are to see those players on the forums. This could lead to better information dissemination among the player base and better feedback on ideas/products.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Sorry, folks, I totally screwed up that math with a stupid spreadsheet error. We also further refined the source data I was working with.
Here's the *real* data.
- Percent of people who have reported playing sessions in the past year that:
- Average 1 or more session per month: 22%
- Average 2 or more sessions per month: 9%
- Average 3 or more sessions per month: 4%
- Average 4 or more sessions per month: 2%
- Average 5 or more sessions per month: less than 1%
If you drop out the people who only reported one session *period*, you get:
- Percent of people who have reported playing more than one session in the past year that:
- Average 1 or more session per month: 29%
- Average 2 or more sessions per month: 12%
- Average 3 or more sessions per month: 5%
- Average 4 or more sessions per month: 2%
- Average 5 or more sessions per month: less than 1%
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I'll going to jump into this conversation at this point. I'm not anyone special, I'm not a soiree owner, I'm not a VO, and I don't have four stars. I'm just a run of the mill person who organizes events at a game store on a monthly basis.
Or I should say was, as after this month I'm stepping down as an event organizer.
And one of the reason why I'm stepping down is because of the way some of the VO's on this forum called me unreasonable just because I said that a automated system that sends thank you's to GM's would be a good idea. And that I should be doing what I do because I love the game.
Well I don't love the game, I love the hobby.
I don't love having to pay to market a game and support organized play out of my own pocket. It sucks to sit on a bus for an hour to get to a gameday where you have to run two slots back to back and not have enough money to pay for food because your extra income went to buying the scenarios for the other GM's to run, because if you didn't they wouldn't run. It sucks, especially when I'm called unreasonable because I think it be nice for the company that I'm marketing for to send out an automated thank you. And when I stop running Paizo probably won't even notice the difference and the only people who will care are the people who lose out on the gameday.
Now the reason why I'm mention this is to reinforce the type of person that Drogan is talking about and also to explain why I'm going to switch to...
Thing is, I live in Drogon's area, and I know several people just like you, I was the person that one of those people shared their frustration with earlier in the year when it got to be too much (and finally people stood up and backed him so he could rest).
So I want to say, thank you, to you and everyone else who has busted their butts.
And yes, such people could use a bit more support.
