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I'm looking at trying to remove what are known as the "Big Six" from my game, and allow their slots to be used for more flavorful items instead. For those unfamiliar with the term, "Big Six" refers to:
Magic Weapon
Magic Armor/Shield
Amulet of Natural Armor
Ring of Protection
Cloak of Resistance
Stat-Enhancing Items
I've seen a few different schools of thought regarding this. The first is to just remove the items completely from the game, and adjust non-humanoid monsters statistics behind the GM screen. The second is to remove the items, and add their bonuses to other, more flavorful items, possibly without changing their prices. The third is to remove the items, and then build a progression into leveling where a PC will get most, if not all, of the bonuses from them without paying for them, and maybe/maybe not reducing Wealth By Level accordingly.
I'm interested in learning how people feel about this change, if anyone has actually done it, and what kind of system you've actually used. I'm leaning toward the third fix, without changing WBL, but I am open to all of the possible listed (and unlisted) ways.
Thanks for the help in advance!
Let me start by saying, 1: I hate 90% of the wealth by level systems. I really hate it when some invisible Mary Jane takes the excess money the characters made by selling the stones the dungeon is made of.
2. I have not agreed to getting rid of the big six. With augment items, that is not necessary. The original broach of shielding was a clasp that attaches to your cloak of resistance. Every item should have one augment slot.
I've had characters that just give away their Cloak of Resistance when they found a Cloak of the Manta Ray for instance.
I recently aquired a +2 charisma bauble for my Paladin, and going over my sheet and adding all those +1's gave me rectal cancer - and I like fiddly rules bits.
Slash the "big six" completely, as well as other items that duplicate them; slash WBL by, say, half (by using same quality of items, half as often - don't give out piles of trash). Then what?
*Use CR as stated, instead of adding 1 or 2 to every encounter to keep players awake. That solution bones martials much more than casters.
*Math fix. Add big, fat bonuses to all ability scores as characters level up, and do something about Max Dex.
Off the cuff, I like slashing the items and giving full BAB to 3/4 classes, and 0.2 or 0.25 BAB to every level in a full-BAB class.
Ring of Freedom of Movement = Ring of outright negating one third of all available martial class builds.
It's not the items, it's the full casters.
You can try reduce the Wealth by level to 1/3 or less. The itens doesn´t need to disappear, only reduce the gold the party will find. In my group works well.
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Reducing WBL = giving noncasters the shaft.
Reduce the amount of magic available for sale (less of it and more expensive with some items simply not purchasable anywhere) and by crafting (increased costs, time, difficulty / prerequisites and xp costs) and adjust the CR of monsters to reflect this. Not every character will walk around with every slot filled. Darn. And magic will feel a little less like required technology and more like "magic".
Oh, and while your at it -- dump WBL. The idea that everyone of a given level has "X" amount of stuff is wrong. It's a rule that is aimed at a "competitive" game where all players have to have equal goodies. Try looking at the amount of goodies real people have, even with the same level of education, experience etc. As for adventurers, it kind of depends on what they've done. Or it should anyway. Players should be fabulously wealthy on occasion and have the opportunity to blow it and become dirt poor (or squirrel it away) without a WBL mandated refill. Just one more reason to adventure.
I'm getting cranky. I think I'll put it down to the dental visit I just had and the fact I can't feel my face... mind you that is probably a good thing right now...
I ran a 3.5 campaign 1-20 without magic gear. Man did the fighter ever feel useless. The rogue less so. The cleric and wizard less so.
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This is a good starting point.
D&D 3.5 (or was it 3.0) had a feat, Vow of Poverty, that (almost) replaced all equipment for a character with the feat. You basically give up two feats (the prerequisite feat was a useless placeholder) for the ability to never own anything but a loincloth and robe. In return, you gain bonuses to pretty much every math that the Big Six items give you: attacks, damage, saves, ability scores, etc.
You can find the feat here: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Vow_of_Poverty
Now, if you're really serious about getting rid of the Big Six, one way might be to implement this feat for free for everyone - just make these bonuses apply to the usual level advancement. Most of your work is done for you. Not the whole feat, the idea isn't to get all your PCs running around in their smallclothes, but just implement the bonuses for them without the restrictions.
Finally, adjust the Wealth By Level table to about 1/2 of hat it currently is if you want lots of magic in your game, or about 1/4 of what it currently is if you want low magic. This wealth will take the form of all the other magic items that are not Big Six items.
I would prefer a system in which magic items are always special. No build revolves around having a certain item, there are no guarantees that you will ever get it, and actually having it is an awesome thing, not a hum-drum step in character advancement.
To do this though, you would have to shaft full spellcasters. No more 8th or 9th level spells, you don't get levitate, fly, or teleport until higher levels, no more insta-win spells (color spray for example). It would be a lot of work.
As for the Big Six, you will never eradicate them. They will pop up every time in every game, simply because players pick what is best and most applicable. You can't change that. Just as a quick example, powerful wizards traditionally specialize in conjuration, not evocation, because conjuration > evocation under the current rules.
Plus, shafting the Big Six would require monster rework, and would only hurt non-casters, as other people have said. I feel that it is more trouble than its worth, but if you feel compelled to fix the perceived problem, have fun!
Seems like the simplest way to do it is just give them to everyone for "free" while slashing WBL. You'd just make a table based on when you'd be able to afford those items and give the bonuses then. Assume item rafting doesn't exist for the purpose of this.
So, say, Cloak of Resistance: +1 at level 3, +2 at 6, +3 at 9, and so on.
Weapon bonuses go up in a similar pattern, but a bit less frequently. +1 at 3, +2 at 7, +3 at 10, +4 at 14, +5 at 19 or summat. Perhaps make it so that's just enhancement bonuses while special item effects can be added through quests or paying an enchanter.
One solid way to fix the issue with the Belt/Headband of X is to tie it to the every 4 level increase. Just bump that by the amount of the belt. So at 4/8/12/16/20 you get +3 to use how you wish instead of +1. Perhaps with a limiter that you can't put more than +2 in a single stat at any given level.
And so on.
4th edition got one thing right... The ability score increase chart. I use this instead of stat boosting items... It also shows mental and physical growth through adventuring and experience. +1 to 2 stats at lvl 4, and +1 to all at lvl 8 and then repeat the cycle. If your PC's are still complaining about a lack of stat items, tell them to play WoW.
These stat increases help to hit, dmg, saves, skills, and DC's alike... If they want to bump it even higher, then there are feats for that.
I don't believe in DR/ magic... Just don't believe in it at all. You want to hit a ghost, get ghost touch weapons, for everything else, carry adamantine, cold iron, and silver weapons. Magical bonuses should be property bonuses, not to hit and dmg bonuses.
Those two fixes alone should help solve almost all your problems.
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OK, so it's a long post, but I'm gonna spoiler the majority of it.
This is a system I came across a while back. It seems to work well, though the WBL slash can be adjusted. Essentially every character gains inherent bonuses with the equipment they wield and their stats, but they don't actually count as magical (despite not stacking with the aforementioned). I've used this system before and it seems to work really well.
Decrease GP to50% when using this system.
Optional: Give each character the option of a free Super Genius Games Archetype without requiring them to trade out one of the starting packages. Decrease GP rewards to 10% if using this option.
Items only give special qualities, not +n enhancements under this system.
Starting at level 3 you may choose 1 heroic distinction you qualify for at each level. Please note Training Bonuses to not stack with Enhancement Bonuses, but do not affect DR or other abilities which require magic to bypass.
Defensive Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.
Improved Defensive Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Greater Defensive Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Improved Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Penultimate Defensive Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Perfect Defensive Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Offensive Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon.
Improved Offensive Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Greater Offensive Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Penultimate Offensive Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Perfect Offensive Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Lucky: The character receives a +1 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves.
Blessed: The character receives a +3 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves. A character must be at least 7th level and have the Lucky distinction before selecting this distinction.
Exalted: The character receives a +5 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves. A character must be at least 13th level and have the Lucky distinction before selecting this distinction.
Hardened: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +1. A character must be at least 6th level before selecting this distinction.
Grizzled: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +3. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Hardened distinction before selecting this distinction.
Iron Skinned: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +5. A character must be at least 14th level and have the Grizzled distinction before selecting this distinction.
Strong: The character receives a +2 training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Dextrous: The character receives a +2 training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Hearty: The character receives a +2 training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Intelligent: The character receives a +2 training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Wise: The character receives a +2 training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Charismatic: The character receives a +2 training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Mighty: +4 Training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Strong distinction before selecting this distinction.
Adroit: +4 Training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Dextrous distinction before selecting this distinction.
Unyielding: +4 Training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Hearty distinction before selecting this distinction.
Inspired: +4 Training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Intelligent distinction before selecting this distinction.
Attuned: +4 Training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Wise distinction before selecting this distinction.
Majestic: +4 Training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Charismatic distinction before selecting this distinction.
Herculean: +6 Training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Mighty distinction before selecting this distinction.
Alacritous: +6 Training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Adroit distinction before selecting this distinction.
Titanic: +6 Training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Unyielding distinction before selecting this distinction.
Brilliant: +6 Training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Inspired distinction before selecting this distinction.
Enlightened: +6 Training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Attuned distinction before selecting this distinction.
Awe Inspiring: +6 Training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Majestic distinction before selecting this distinction.
Magical Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +1 training bonus to the first damage die rolled.
Improved Magical Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +2 training bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Greater Magical Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +3 training bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Penultimate Magical Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +4 training bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Perfect Magical Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +5 training bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
It slightly favors fully defensive builds and TWF, but seeing as they are considered under par compared with fully offensive single weapon builds, I think it's still reasonable. And it gives you a description for the boosts that can be used in game without saying "I have a +3 bonus to my saves". Instead the character is "blessed", which some groups prefer in order to prevent meta-conversation in game. ("+6 IQ; how do you figure that?")
In this system you can still get a +1 weapon to bypass DR magic (though you don't need it to get the flaming special quality) and I personally allow up to +2 armor, shield and stat enhancements in my campaigns, but the primary benefit of these items becomes reduced compared to other magic item options.
For instance, it becomes much more likely that players will be willing to take up that sentient spell storing sword than simply falling back on their +2 weapon enhancement (which doesn't exist unless you go epic).
Some special abilities and pricings will need adjustment, tho, as a defending longsword without an enhancement bonus doesn't do the player much good (I allow them to trade out their innate bonus instead) and a headband of aerial agility (ultimate equipment) will never grant above a +2 stat boost, but may still grant the other effects.
For the latter situation all you have to do is reverse engineer the price difference for the stat boost and reduce the cost by that much, but it can still be a pain.
That said, I think this is a really well-written system and at least merits consideration.
Just give the PCs a +1 per level, and let them put it where they want, maybe limiting it based on the type of plus.
For example, you could gain an enhancement bonus on your weapon equal to half your level, max +10 at 20th, only +5 of which is enhancement, the rest are special abilities.
For another example, at 3rd level, you would have 3 pluses. You could use it for +1 weapon, +1 amulet, and +1 cloak. Or +2 ability score, +1 ring. Or +2 shield and +1 cloak. Etc. etc.
You could change your plusses each level, or by spending a Hero Point.
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So have people actually put the idea of Distinctions (or some variant thereon) into practice? How did it go?
I'm thinking about the feasibility of a re-engineer divorcing wealth from level; if you can't actually turn wealth into magic items (because crafting is hard, and there's no market offering them), you don't so much need wealth.
Because something that's been irking.. why do adventurers want loot? Not to retire, but to get better gear, to be better at adventuring.. it becomes its own circular purpose.
As a side effect, people don't actually want to spend a lot of money on partying, if you could also be spending it on mechanical benefit.
So distinctions actually seem like a promising alternative, but I wonder if anyone's actually used them in practice?
I dislike the Big 4 (the ring, the amulet, the cloak and the stat boosters)
But I do not see the problem with the magic weapons or armors. What exactly a flavorful armor? why somebody would prefer a flovorful armor instead or an armor that is better at saving his life?
I mostly agree with Nicos here. Although I feel the numerical bonuses for magic armor and weapons could be lower and less necessary than they're now...
if you can't actually turn wealth into magic items (because crafting is hard, and there's no market offering them), you don't so much need wealth.
Neither does Bill Gates, or Warren Buffet, or any other gazillionaire, but they still seem to want to keep getting more. Need it? No. Want it? Yes. Want it so bad that it seems like a need? Yes.
Because something that's been irking.. why do adventurers want loot? Not to retire, but to get better gear, to be better at adventuring.. it becomes its own circular purpose.
My character wants to be rich and powerful. Both.
Rich so he can buy what he wants. Buy a kingdom maybe. Live the good life. Powerful so he can hold onto his wealth and guard it from those who would take it from him.
Further, he knows that he could be richer than any king alive if he can just find a few really amazing treasure hoards. Ancient dragons, lost cities of gold, whatever. Really amazing. But then he has to kill the beasties that inhabit those hoards. No noob with a sharp stick is going to be killing an ancient dragon. So he's gotta work for it. Train his skills, hone his lethality, and most importantly, acquire the magic that will give him the winning edge in these battles.
As a side effect, people don't actually want to spend a lot of money on partying, if you could also be spending it on mechanical benefit.
Speak for yourself. I live to party. Ales, whores, confections, more ales. Compared to the price of even a +1 sword, you can party for a whole year straight, drink yourself unconscious every night, and not even spend half the gold.
Adventure to live, not the other way around. The tiny fraction of your wealth that you spend living large will never amount to a single tear in the salty sea of your vast future wealth.
So have people actually put the idea of Distinctions (or some variant thereon) into practice? How did it go?
I'm thinking about the feasibility of a re-engineer divorcing wealth from level; if you can't actually turn wealth into magic items (because crafting is hard, and there's no market offering them), you don't so much need wealth.
Because something that's been irking.. why do adventurers want loot? Not to retire, but to get better gear, to be better at adventuring.. it becomes its own circular purpose.
As a side effect, people don't actually want to spend a lot of money on partying, if you could also be spending it on mechanical benefit.
So distinctions actually seem like a promising alternative, but I wonder if anyone's actually used them in practice?
I used them for a homebrew setting where it made little sense for the characters to have access to large amount of wealth, altered a bit but not too dissimilar from what I linked to above.
They work fine at replacing the big 6 and lets lower wealth characters keep up with expected CRs. It creates a few differences, it's a bit of a (needed IMO) boost to unarmed/TWF builds as your Offensive Training doubles up its bonuses for them. Where characters will usually have a Cloak of Resistance among their first items because of it's bonus and cheapness, the Distinctions can cause the bonus to saves to come later.
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In a prior post I revealed a system I'm proposing to my players that converts the WBL system into fixed bonuses by relaying what a bonus would be worth into the system. It works in an artificial environment but have not subjected it to playtesting. It elaborated on what Magic Crafter posted by balancing the bonuses with actual WBL.
FIXED TRAINING BONUSES
Finding magic items should be interesting and exciting, make people sit up and take notice. However, the Pathfinder system is geared around scaling one’s abilities with magic items, and inevitably by higher levels 75% of players will be using the same equipment as last campaign. Cool items, such as a +1 flaming sword that hurls fiery hay bales on a critical hit are thrown aside in favor of the +3 sword with no special abilities. Players shrug when another band of bad guys are all geared with routine Rings of Protection +1 and carrying +1 short swords, all churned out at the magic-mart mill of bland items. Players should not have to march through a proscribed arsenal of must-have equipment in order to have success with the game. Neither should they be disinterested when magic items are found.
So, the question becomes: how can we fix a system dependent on magic item upgrades, without having to overhaul the entire system? The solution is Fixed Training Bonuses. Players, starting at 3rd level, gain points that they can spend on specialized training that gives permanent fixed bonuses. These do not stack with bonuses of the same name, so a +2 Strength enhancement bonus would not stack with the +4 given by Bull’s Strength. All magic items in the game with a “plus” have been removed. However, all spells and abilities that boost with a “plus” still exist and have their usual uses. You will still find magical weapons, but they may be the Flaming Sword of Pellinor (with flaming property), and this item continues to have use to a fighter instead of being discarded at higher levels. This opens the door to having magical items which carry more meaning and purpose while still preserving party power levels to have success against gradually escalating foes. It also lessens the likelihood of “throwaway” magic items such as a collection of Rings of Protection +1.
Rules: Starting at 3rd level, players get training points to spend on a list of non-magical, permanent fixed abilities. Players are not obligated to spend points and may accumulate them, but a player can only gain the abilities when advancing a level. If it isn’t obvious, bonuses must be purchased in ascending order.
Mechanics: Training Enhancements do not allow a player to overcome DR. Weapon enhancements such as flaming are treated as the equivalent “plus” they cost to add for purposes of bypassing DR. Crafting will subsequently be slightly easier as there will be no +1 requirement on a pre-existing weapons/armors to begin adding other enhancements. Items will be more vulnerable to sundering, but a character’s battle capability isn’t entirely tied into one weapon.
Wealth by Level: This system takes the value of the boost by comparing it to existing gear and assigning a point cost at a ratio of 1000gp value to 1 point. This accounts for the cost of each boost. The training points gained is based off a 75% principle, drawn from the WBL tables in which it is presumed 25% of wealth goes to offensive items, 25% to armor, and 25% to miscellaneous (generally “plus” items), settling in the middle at 50% to accommodate all classes. The below table gives players 50% of WBL in training abilities. Pre-requisites are also built in to assume that no more than 25% of a character’s wealth is generally spent on a single item. All point costs for abilities include the cost beforehand, so if you tally the entire Weapon Training line to +5, it would convert to 50,000.
As such, GM’s using this system should adjust in game wealth accordingly to 50%. The below chart has been converted off the WBL table by multiplying the WBL by .50 and reducing to a ratio of 1 to 1,000.
Level Training Points Gained
3 1
4 2
5 2
6 3
7 4
8 4
9 7
10 8
11 10
12 13
13 16
14 22
15 28
16 37
17 48
18 60
19 77
20 98
Weapon Training (2): The character receives a +1 fixed enhancement bonus to attacks and damage with a class of weapons (select from Fighter class), unarmed attacks, or natural weapons (must select one type of attack, such as claw or bite). Must be at least level 4.
Increase bonus to +2: (6), must be at least level 7.
Increase bonus to +3: (10), must be at least level 10.
Increase bonus to +4: (14), must be at least level 13.
Increase bonus to +5: (18), must be at least level 15.
Defensive Training (1): The character receives a +1 fixed enhancement bonus to the effective armor bonus of any one type of armor, shield, or bracers worn, or the character receives a fixed +1 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves.
Increase bonus to +2: (3), must be at least level 6.
Increase bonus to +3: (5), must be at least level 9.
Increase bonus to +4: (7), must be at least level 11.
Increase bonus to +5: (9), must be at least level 13.
Protection Training (2): The character receives a +1 fixed deflection bonus to AC, or a +1 fixed natural armor bonus to AC. Must be at least level 4.
Increase bonus to +2: (6), must be at least level 7.
Increase bonus to +3: (10), must be at least level 10.
Increase bonus to +4: (14), must be at least level 13.
Increase bonus to +5: (18), must be at least level 15.
Ability Score Improvement: Note: players cannot use the Double Focus or Full Package improvements to mix and match mental and physical increases. The Double and Full must be all mental or all physical attributes.
Singular Focus: select a mental (Int, Wis, Cha) or physical (Str, Dex, Con) attribute to apply a +2 fixed enhancement bonus. Costs (4) and must be at least level 6.
Improve the attribute to +4 (12). Must be at least level 11.
Improve the attribute to +6 (20). Must be at least level 14.
Double Focus (must have Singular Focus): increases a second mental or physical ability score beyond the Singular Focus. The second score increased can never be higher than the Singular Focus attribute.
Increase secondary attribute to +2: (6). Must be at least level 9.
Increase secondary attribute to +4: (18). Must be at least level 14.
Increase secondary attribute to +6: (30). Must be at least level 17.
Full Package (must have Singular and Double Focus): increases a third mental or physical attribute score beyond the Singular and Double Focus. The third score increased can never be higher than the Singular or Double Focus attribute.
Increase third attribute to +2: (6). Must be at least level 11.
Increase third attribute to +4: (18). Must be at least level 16.
Increase third attribute to +6: (30). Must be at least level 19.
Wealth Boost: The player comes into unexpected wealth and may exchange 1 training point for 1,000gp.
I also like the notion of removing the big 6 in favor of niche items that usually go unnoticed. A lot of them are really useful, but don't get used because player's are too worried about filling their needs. Best answer I have come up with is to make more effort towards needing to find magic item crafters rather than magic shops, and let random treasure include the neat items that get looked over.
It's more that the power items are the next best thing to necessary in this game to keep up with monster AC and attack values, not that people are min/maxing or anything like that.
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Right now I'm playing some casters with CWI, and I must say, I'm in two minds about it.
On the one hand, after a long campaign with extreme restrictiveness about treasure and items, it's liberating to just craft the stuff you want.
On the other hand, most treasure now falls into the "melt it down and craft your own" category. Where crafting your own is pretty close to crafting Big Six stuff.
As a related question: I've read people stating that limiting items hoses non-casters more than casters. Why is this exactly? If it's true, that would be an important thing to keep in mind when trying to reduce Big Six...
Well, it's because casters don't need items as much as martials do.
When you look at it, of the "Big Six" casters really only need a Headband of X (where X is their casting stat, and only then if they're using spells that have saves) and a Cloak of Resistances, everything else is pretty optional. Scrolls, Potions, Wands, etc. are helpful, but not required.
Meanwhile a martial without magic armor and weaponry is pretty hosed after about level 10, unfortunately.
Now if you go the route of "It's part of the normal level up" it's cool, but if you do something like actively removing those completely without compensating for them, it gets a bit sticky for the fighting men and barely inconveniences the finger wigglers.
Well, it's because casters don't need items as much as martials do.
When you look at it, of the "Big Six" casters really only need a Headband of X (where X is their casting stat, and only then if they're using spells that have saves) and a Cloak of Resistances, everything else is pretty optional. Scrolls, Potions, Wands, etc. are helpful, but not required.
Meanwhile a martial without magic armor and weaponry is pretty hosed after about level 10, unfortunately.
Now if you go the route of "It's part of the normal level up" it's cool, but if you do something like actively removing those completely without compensating for them, it gets a bit sticky for the fighting men and barely inconveniences the finger wigglers.
Partial casters, like rangers and paladins can still survive imo. Paladins have to work for it, but they have access to Shield of Faith and Rangers get Barkskin for above average AC, and paladins even get GMW and their divine bond.
So many wrong approaches here...
The "reduce WBL, give them +1s" is the most disgustingly wrong one.
Do you people ever play anything that isn't a primary caster? Ever tried playing a fighter in a group containing a cleric, a druid, and a wizard?
So many wrong approaches here...
The "reduce WBL, give them +1s" is the most disgustingly wrong one.
Do you people ever play anything that isn't a primary caster? Ever tried playing a fighter in a group containing a cleric, a druid, and a wizard?
How constructive.
Care to elaborate upon a "right" approach?
In order to suggest a "right" approach, I would first have to be convinced that "the big six" are some kind of evil that should be prevented at all costs.
I am not yet convinced of such a thing.
I'm kind of wondering why Kolokotroni took the approach of making the armor path a 5-selection chain, but made the dodge path and the natural armor path 3-selection chains for the same total benefit. An armor specialist gets his even bonuses earlier but loses out in the end when he and the other two competitors have the same AC bonuses but he's down two choices for it, and not only that, but Dodge bonuses stack with everything (even themselves) and contribute to CMD to boot. They're a higher-priority AC bonus.
I'm interested in the concept of a Pathfinder re-do of the "It's not your armor, it's you" rules, but I'd have to try my hand at it to fine-tune it where I want it. Not all bonuses are the same, and it leads to weird interactions with existing spells (now your fighter can have his +5 training bonus AND greater magic weapon). I'm not sure about casters getting +5 to caster level and attack rolls with spells either, but maybe that's more easily accomplishable (sp?) than I assume.
I'm also really hesitant about rules that make it impossible to disarm characters. It's bad enough that it's pretty impossible to logically imprison a sorceror or many cleric / oracles, given that they hardly need to rest for their spells and have access to SLAs several times a day.
Further, dedicated item slots are a limitation. If you want two magical effects, but they occupy the same space, normally you have to pay more gold to have them both (by enchanting an item with two enchantments, or putting one in a nonstandard slot, or making a slotless item). This system removes those limitations and may give characters 'discounts' they would otherwise be unable to receive.
Still, the idea has many advantages as well, so I am by no means suggesting that the work is fruitless. Those are just areas I'm identifying as possible contentious points.
In order to suggest a "right" approach, I would first have to be convinced that "the big six" are some kind of evil that should be prevented at all costs.
I am not yet convinced of such a thing.
Some players prefer a different flavor of game that the big six impedes. It's not a black/white or right/wrong situation. It's shades of grey. If you prefer a different flavor that's nice, but you're in the wrong Thread. The people posting here prefer not to use the big six or at least are willing to offer constructive advice on those that do.
Convincing you of anything isn't the point of the thread nor is it helpful to the original intent. If you like the big six, by all means keep using them. This thread is suggestions about how to get rid of them.
Reduce the amount of magic available for sale (less of it and more expensive with some items simply not purchasable anywhere) and by crafting (increased costs, time, difficulty / prerequisites and xp costs) and adjust the CR of monsters to reflect this. Not every character will walk around with every slot filled. Darn. And magic will feel a little less like required technology and more like "magic".
Oh, and while your at it -- dump WBL. The idea that everyone of a given level has "X" amount of stuff is wrong. It's a rule that is aimed at a "competitive" game where all players have to have equal goodies. Try looking at the amount of goodies real people have, even with the same level of education, experience etc. As for adventurers, it kind of depends on what they've done. Or it should anyway. Players should be fabulously wealthy on occasion and have the opportunity to blow it and become dirt poor (or squirrel it away) without a WBL mandated refill. Just one more reason to adventure.
I'm getting cranky. I think I'll put it down to the dental visit I just had and the fact I can't feel my face... mind you that is probably a good thing right now...
While i completely sympathize with the frustration, WBL is not wrong, and it's not just competitive gamers who benefit. One of the great strengths, handled properly, of all 3.x derived game systems is the challenge rating and experience track. It makes the GMs job immensely easier, making it far simpler to design and control encounters. Without wealth by level, you're in the same boat as unbalanced classes - the math doesn't work. Sure, you can do it anyway, but that's the whole point of the game, the design philosophy. It's just not as obvious with WBL as it is with experience levels and challenge ratings, and it's a bit more arbitrary. But treasure is a vital component of the D&D/Pathfinder style of RPG, where it is arguably as important a reward as XP. WBL controls the math so the system still works. Things like artifacts throw it out of whack - that's why there are so many advice columns about using artifacts.
I agree there should be more transparency and perhaps alternatives - we should see what the designers are planning for, what bonuses they expect you to have when. That should be in the GMs guide at least, and probably in the magic item section of the core rulebook. But I question eliminating WBL entirely. It's a very useful tool to control a fundamental assumption about a certain style of play at the heart of Pathfinder and its antecedents - namely, the looting part of killing and looting.
If you don't like that style of play, there are other RPGs designed to handle that style of gameplay. No RPG can ever handle all styles of play with equal facility, and that's a good thing. Gives us variety.
Edit: I also sympathize with the face pain. Ouch.
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I'm looking at trying to remove what are known as the "Big Six" from my game, and allow their slots to be used for more flavorful items instead. For those unfamiliar with the term, "Big Six" refers to:
Remove the ability for players to purchase or manufacture most magic items (except consumables). If permanent magic items are distributed strictly by the GM as loot, the magic-mart aspect of the game goes away.
Simply define the world setting as one where the creations of durable magic items is vastly more complicated, thus such items are rare and tend to be ancient relics, not made to order.
In order to suggest a "right" approach, I would first have to be convinced that "the big six" are some kind of evil that should be prevented at all costs.
I am not yet convinced of such a thing.
The Big Six items, in general, aren't problematic. The problem, as I see it, is the ease of obtaining them - meaning the magic item creation and sales, along with the relative pricing of items, is the main problem.
In all editions of D&D, players have wanted to pursue a strategy of improving AC, weapon attacks, saving throws, and (since it was the main boost available), strength. The difference between 1e/2e and 3e+ is that in 1e/2e, that strategy could not be rationally pursued. The PCs pretty much had to wait for those items to drop into an adventure to be recovered. So, players made do with a lot of other stuff they recovered.
Once the ground assumption was that virtually all items were available with relatively little effort and the primary gate keeper was price (much lower if crafting yourself), the strategy came into the fore. Now, what's the point of keeping a ring of shooting stars? It's only marginally useful in uncommon circumstances, yet it's worth a chunk of change. So, now the rational strategy is to sell it and invest in Big Six items. They're simply too useful for the price to overlook. This is also a notable issue if the GM inserts useful items early in a campaign on the assumption they will come in useful later - Paizo APs have been known to do this. But a player pursuing the Big Six strategy, probably sells the item to invest in his bonuses.
The desire and importance of the big six needs to be taken away if you really want players to not want them.
Throw them in a diplomatic, or skill heavy campaign where combat isn't the main focus, the big 6 become utterly worthless in this kind of scenario.
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The desire and importance of the big six needs to be taken away if you really want players to not want them.
Throw them in a diplomatic, or skill heavy campaign where combat isn't the main focus, the big 6 become utterly worthless in this kind of scenario.
I doubt that.. headbands of intelligence boost a lot of skills and give more skills; headbands of charisma help social skills; headbands of wisdom boost sense motive and perception, which will be important in social games as well. And they also give more spells and better spell DCs, so any social/skill related spells will work better.
And bonuses to saving throws will always be useful, if only not to get Charm Person-ed during a social game.
I'm kind of wondering why Kolokotroni took the approach of making the armor path a 5-selection chain, but made the dodge path and the natural armor path 3-selection chains for the same total benefit. An armor specialist gets his even bonuses earlier but loses out in the end when he and the other two competitors have the same AC bonuses but he's down two choices for it, and not only that, but Dodge bonuses stack with everything (even themselves) and contribute to CMD to boot. They're a higher-priority AC bonus.
I'd guess it was to mimic the weapon progression, one of the changes I made was to have the armor bonuses apply to both armor and shield AC with just one selection.
The Dodge bonus seems to be there to replace the deflection bonus of the Ring of Protection, I assume it was changed to dodge for flavor reasons, I just changed it to a Deflection bonus.
I'm interested in the concept of a Pathfinder re-do of the "It's not your armor, it's you" rules, but I'd have to try my hand at it to fine-tune it where I want it. Not all bonuses are the same, and it leads to weird interactions with existing spells (now your fighter can have his +5 training bonus AND greater magic weapon).
It actually says in the opening paragraph that Training and Enhancement bonuses don't stack, so no reason to worry about that.
I'm not sure about casters getting +5 to caster level and attack rolls with spells either, but maybe that's more easily accomplishable (sp?) than I assume.
I'm pretty sure that it only applies to Caster Level checks (ie for overcoming spell resistance or using Dispel Magic) not an actual bonus to caster level (which would be way too much). You could easily remove the whole thing or just the bonus to attacks/damage (I split that off into Offensive Training, blaster wizards having an option to increase their damage a bit is probably a good thing) as it's probably too much for one Distinction to give bonuses to attacks/damage and caster level checks.
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How the heck are magical arms and armour not flavourful as heck?
If you want to "solve that problem" then just actually use the rules for buy/selling magic items. They work great for that. Then you pretty much just hand out the treasure you want to be flavourful with and not worry about it at all beyond that.
Metropolis buy limit is like 16k-ish. 75% chance to find or sell things in that range, with the exception of the items you know are stocked in the city. Anything else is something to be gotten adventuring or has to be made.
Also just talk to your players about it. Why rewrite the way the game works instead of just discussing it with them after all?
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More or less, depending on the class. The idea being, what caster would give up a Headband of Mental Superiority +6 in favor of a Crown of Heaven? (random example, and probably not a good one. Just looking for expensive head slot items really quick)
Just as an aside here, the head slot and headband slot are separate slots.