Obviously this would result in their deaths under normal circumstances.
Next week will (unless we decide to pick it up again after summer break, but that's quite a bit of time) be our final session in the devil-conspiracy-assassination adventure, and I want a cool, flavorful BBEG to throw at them for the last fight. Right now the only demons/devils they're capable of taking on are not nearly as interesting.
My plan for the encounter is to have the player attend a high-society celebration, at which the Gylou and several of her lesser devil minions will be attending in mortal guise. The players would need to try and find out which of the attendants are devils and try to take them out individually, without causing a scene, which may or may not be possible depending on how it goes.
What would be a good strategy to scale down the creature's power to match their level, and to what degree do I need to? Clearly a lot of things (HP, damage from the claws, black tentacles as a spell-like ability, etc.) are too strong for them to take on.
Maybe the Devils have a future use for the host of this party, and will therefore seek to limit their carnage to avoid collateral damage - possibly flee if they cannot get the upper hand straight away?
Yeah, this is just completely unreasonable (so you're an unreasonable GM?) Either face the party against much lower CR devils, even in disguise in a social situation, or use a party that is much higher in level. A 14 CR anything and minions vs. a 5th level party - a completely unreasonable situation. I hope there are other GMs for your players to find for a more reasonable game.
Yo, uh, gamer-printer, you did notice that he is trying to be a reasonable GM by asking for a way to make the CR 14 enemy reasonable in power for a 5th level party, right? He's not just throwing it at them at full power.
To actually help in this matter, my main advice would be to figure out what CR you want it to be, then see if you can get it to be reasonably close to the numbers on the Monster Stats by CR table in the Bestiary by removing hit dice and special abilities. Maybe see if you can just take the section on adding hit dice to monsters and apply the process in reverse?
Use the monster "Advancement table" in reverse and just scale back her damage, HD, etc. to appropriate levels. With this new "low-level version" you can slap a new name on them or the "lesser" tag, come up with your own flavor, and you're done.
With the scaling back of damage output and so on, nothing on that particular devil is "game-breaking".
I've done similarly with other creatures, though on occasion I had to adjust things on the fly.
Oh, I get it. We had a GM that liked doing that sort of thing, the problem was the players, not knowning the opponent was +10 CR higher than them started it as a social situation. But you know players, they are determined to turn any encounter/situation on it's head. And even though things began as a social situation, it most probably will turn into combat - depending on the adventure party of course. By just presenting a CR 14 devil against a 5th level party, things can always turn to combat and that, of course, is suicide.
Why not make things more reasonable, say face the party against a CR+4 monsters and it's minions in a social situation. If things are kept social there's no problem, but if they party bumps it to combat, which they often do, won't be a suicide situation, nor something the GM has to fudge to keep the party alive.
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Use the monster "Advancement table" in reverse and just scale back her damage, HD, etc. to appropriate levels. With this new "low-level version" you can slap a new name on them or the "lesser" tag, come up with your own flavor, and you're done.
With the scaling back of damage output and so on, nothing on that particular devil is "game-breaking".
I've done similarly with other creatures, though on occasion I had to adjust things on the fly.
I'm not really disagreeing, here...just wondering if it can be done and still maintain the flavor he wanted. That...I'm a bit unsure of.
The cage damage is the worst of it, once Black Tentacles is gone...if it's still large, and still has the attack, that should still do decent damage...and I wouldn't drop it to medium...I'd still want the 10' reach...no, not game-breaking...but...*shrug*.
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Oh, I get it. We had a GM that liked doing that sort of thing, the problem was the players, not knowning the opponent was +10 CR higher than them started it as a social situation. But you know players, they are determined to turn any encounter/situation on it's head. And even though things began as a social situation, it most probably will turn into combat - depending on the adventure party of course. By just presenting a CR 14 devil against a 5th level party, things can always turn to combat and that, of course, is suicide.
Why not make things more reasonable, say face the party against a CR+4 monsters and it's minions in a social situation. If things are kept social there's no problem, but if they party bumps it to combat, which they often do, won't be a suicide situation, nor something the GM has to fudge to keep the party alive.
He's wanting to scale it down...make it...I would assume, no worse than CR 8. It's a bit of work, but doable...
Use the monster "Advancement table" in reverse and just scale back her damage, HD, etc. to appropriate levels. With this new "low-level version" you can slap a new name on them or the "lesser" tag, come up with your own flavor, and you're done.
With the scaling back of damage output and so on, nothing on that particular devil is "game-breaking".
I've done similarly with other creatures, though on occasion I had to adjust things on the fly.
I like this advice, and admittedly it's been a while since I've looked over the rules, but if the party knows the devil is there and are preparing to ambush it at the party, could they maybe setup some kind of holy trap they can use to hinder it as well?
I'm not really disagreeing, here...just wondering if it can be done and still maintain the flavor he wanted. That...I'm a bit unsure of.
The cage damage is the worst of it, once Black Tentacles is gone...if it's still large, and still has the attack, that should still do decent damage...and I wouldn't drop it to medium...I'd still want the 10' reach...no, not game-breaking...but...*shrug*.
I understand what you're saying and I agree. It could still potentially be a TPK scenario. Under normal circumstances (not the final BBEG for a campaign ending), I'd probably go with something else that's similar (like a heavily modified Cecaelia).
Perhaps some of the Devil's abilities are for some reason tied to her minions? As the minions are killed as quietly as possible, she begins losing her spell-like abilities or takes a cumulative -1 to all attacks, damage, saves for each minion or every two killed. If the PCs bungle, and they will, I'm sure, they have to fight the remaining minions and the moderately weakened devil.
He's wanting to scale it down...make it...I would assume, no worse than CR 8. It's a bit of work, but doable...
Well of course, it's needs scaled down, but to get from CR 14 to CR 8, you'll have a one-legged gylou with a club foot for the other leg, young template, etc. -- you have to beat it to death from it's original CR and still be a challenge. Requiring a half dozen negative CR templates to a monster just to make doable, is still being unreasonable.
It would still be more reasonable to start with a CR 10 monster and template down -2 CR.
CR is not an exact science, adding one template and it still works, but adding a second template and the math starts to get wonky. Add more than 2 templates and the formula for CR doesn't really work anymore.
Go "Wizard of Oz" and have some way to auto-defeat the demon (wicked witch).
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I'm not really disagreeing, here...just wondering if it can be done and still maintain the flavor he wanted. That...I'm a bit unsure of.
The cage damage is the worst of it, once Black Tentacles is gone...if it's still large, and still has the attack, that should still do decent damage...and I wouldn't drop it to medium...I'd still want the 10' reach...no, not game-breaking...but...*shrug*.
I understand what you're saying and I agree. It could still potentially be a TPK scenario. Under normal circumstances (not the final BBEG for a campaign ending), I'd probably go with something else that's similar (like a heavily modified Cecaelia).
Perhaps some of the Devil's abilities are for some reason tied to her minions? As the minions are killed as quietly as possible, she begins losing her spell-like abilities or takes a cumulative -1 to all attacks, damage, saves for each minion or every two killed. If the PCs bungle, and they will, I'm sure, they have to fight the remaining minions and the moderately weakened devil.
Oh, man...a half-fiend Cecaelia would work very well...much easier. Hmmm...they're aquatic...
I dunno. It's up to Big Lemon, but I might try to go that route rather than all the work of scaling something down 6 CRs.
Big Lemon,
Despite pathfinder's love of trying to make everything a set formula, You're the DM, there is no reason to slave yourself to templates or static formulas.
You can keep her just as she is and scale her down numbers wise.
I can't give suggestions on what they should be without knowing your party's makeup and competence.
But basically just adjust the relevant combat stats as you see fit.
For example: If I was scaling it for my 4th level party.
Her listed AC is
AC 31, touch 17, flat-footed 24 (+7 Dex, +14 natural)
Way to high for anyone in my group to hit. I know Ac's around 20 are challenging for my group. So I would simply change the numbers to
(+3 Dex, +7 Natural)
SR 25... To high I'll make it a 17.
Dr 10/good to much but I have a pally amongst my players so 5/good will work.
melee attacks:
2 claws +22 (2d8+7/19-20/x3), 2 tentacles +20 (1d6+3 plus grab)
she'll never miss: so instead 2 claws +10, and lets drop the damage to 2d4+4 and 2 tentacles +8 for 1d4+1 damage
etc..
IMO Keep everything the Devil sub-type entails for the Gylou only, not its minions:
*Immunity to fire and poison.
*Resistance to acid 10 and cold 10.
*See in Darkness (Su) Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.
*Summon (Sp) Devils share the ability to summon others of their kind, typically another of their type or a small number of less-powerful devils.
*Telepathy.
*Except when otherwise noted, devils speak Celestial, Draconic, and Infernal.
*A devil's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as lawful and evil for the purpose of resolving damage reduction
>>>BUT MAKE SURE YOU REMOVE THE GYLOU'S 10/Good resistance<<<
Elemental resistances are fun to have to work around so long as they are speficic ones and not the "Everything exept" resistances,
If the Wizard prepared wrongly then he should still be able to handle clearing out and holding off the minons.
Keep the Size and reach of the gylou, you usally want "Ultimate True forms" to be big.
Cut the health by 80, cut the attack bonuses in half, cut the saving throws in half, Cut CMB and CMD in half, set the AC's to 21(norm) 15(touch) 18(flat-f), remove the multi-attack feat, and remove 1 damage die from the claw attack, and 2 damage die from the tentacle cage.
As far as abilities go, Remove the damage from black tentacles and set it to one use, make it a support spell to let the minions get their swarm on.
Everything else should be about normal, the godly perception, true-sight dark vision super initiative and all else should still be there, In a assassination and subterfuge style of mission, you want the boss to not be able to simply get attacked in its torpor by full-round attack flanking stealth attacks... Its happened before.
Also something you should consider when doing something as risky as this:
Consider your deus ex machina's: What is a fair way to save your players if this is still retardly powerful? What is a way to make it story line relevant?
Here's a good suggestion, If you're at a big fancy ball or whatnot, consider making it to where the players aren't the only one hunting the demon, What if there is another order of Paladins/Cavaliers/Monks etc. that are also hidden there, and can be uncovered and temporarily recurited by the players?
If the player cause an uproar and are attacked out right, cause this secret order to flee for a small period of time (5 rounds) to quickly prep and remove disguises before casting some form of smiting light to force the Gylou to release its Black tentacles.
After the fact, you now have an intriguing order of lawful good, yet subverse Templars for the players to be interested in as another story line tie in for later.
Remember, Think less about mechanical rigging, and more elaborate storyline telling.
Got some good suggestions here.
In-story, these Devils are natives to the Material Plane, been there since the dawn of time for reasons unknown. They are not as powerful because because they don't have ready access to the powers of Hell; casting is as difficult/uncommon for them as it is for mortals.
As for why the Gylou specifically... well, most of the low CR demons and devils are mainly just guys with different weapons and spell-like abilities, and don't have interesting combat querks to them, whereas the stronger ones, in addition to just having higher numbers for AC, damage and the like, have all these interesting features, like the gylou's cage grapple. They spice things up.
I made some adjustments to the monster based on the Monster Advancement/Creation tables in the Bestiaries, and what I think my party is capable of:
LE Medium outsider (devil, evil, extraplanar, lawful)
Init +10; Senses darkvision 60 ft., true seeing; Perception +23
DEFENSE
]AC 21, touch 16, flat-footed 15 (+6 Dex, +5 natural)
hp 100
Fort +13, Ref +13, Will +7
DR 10/good; Immune fire, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10; SR 18
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Melee 2 claws +16 (1d4+7/19–20), 2 tentacles +11 (1d6+3 plus grab)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with tentacle)
Special Attacks tentacle cage (2d6+3 bludgeoning, AC 15, 18 hp)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 8th; concentration +13)
Constant—spider climb, true seeing
At will—alter self, enthrall (DC 17)
STATISTICS
Str 23, Dex 23, Con 23, Int 22, Wis 21, Cha 20
Base Atk +9; CMB +16 (+20 grapple); CMD 39 (can't be tripped)
Feats Acrobatic Steps, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Nimble Moves
Skills Acrobatics +17 (+21 jump), Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Disguise +16, Escape Artist +14, Fly +14, Knowledge (arcana) +14,Knowledge (planes) +14, Perception +16, Perform (sing) +16, Sense Motive +16, Spellcraft +14, Stealth +18
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal, telepathy 100 ft.
SQ agile grappler
I'd start by clueing the players in to how power an opponent they are dealing with. This will be easy to do, just leave a brutally killed corpse of another hidden away for them to find. Just pick a creature or npc powerful enough that its brutal defeat would hint at the devils power.
Next, there's a very good chance one of the devil's allies has already set up contingencies to kill the beast, that's just a fact of life when evil deals with itself. The players could find some items that another person has acquired to make the encounter easier for the players.
Last, I'd work out a means to defeat the devil that doesn't incolve taking it's hp to zero. Okay, maybe figure that out first.
Something the players should pick up along the way is something that gives them a CHANCE to escape if things go horribly wrong. You are doing this for fairness of putting against a monster that out classes them by so much.
My initial thought is to give it 8-10 negative levels representing its reduced power for whatever reason you could think off with added houserule that each negative level also reduces its Spell Resistance by 1.
I would do it a different way.
Don't tone it down at all. Bring it in all its glory. But then have an Archon of nearly the same power show up. I don't know why, it's your campaign, you figure it out. The Gylou and the Archon go to war while the PCs deal with the minions - you might even have the Archon tell them to deal with the minions in case the PCs don't figure that out for themselves.
When the dust settles, the Gylou has won, but it's battered and bloody, maybe its armor is rent and damaged (allowing less AC, less DR, etc.), it's clearly lost most of its HP, but it's still a big scary threat. Plan this bit out, some of the posters before me had some suggestions, so that the battle is interesting but still doable for the PCs. You don't have to roll dice every round for the Archon and Gylou, just give descriptive narrative and maybe pretend to roll dice for it to make the actual battle appear less scripted.
Now the PCs take it on.
Heroic? Not exactly, the Archon was the true hero here, saving all these lives. But it's still somewhat heroic to finish what the Archon started. But it sure will be memorable.
Do you have The Infernal Syndrome from the Council of Thieves AP?
If it helps, the campaign has been running as an "assasination" game so far.
When we started, the one character with a really fleshed out backstory (fetchling sniper, working for a fetchling organization in my world) was chose nto be the primary spring-board for the adventure, as a way of meeting midway for all the characters over time, they' eventually started working for a high-ranking Wizard official uncovering gathering information from the minions of this group of earth-bound devils and taking them out.
I'm starting to think I should keep the gylou as is, and introduce other elements to even the playing field. Some other options:
1. The sniper always tries to, well, hide and shoot from relative safety with her hand crossbow, and uses poison on her bolts and wristblade to help deal with threats. Giving her some bolts that resolve agaisnt touch AC would allow her to get at least a few shots off relatively easy, and then it's just a matter of giving her the right poison to use.
2. The summoner in the group is going to try to make a deal with an Erinyes he found a summoning ritual for. He might be able to convince the Erinyes to fight with them for a hefty price (to start with, giving up one eye so that the Erinyes can cloak it's aura, and then having to make regular blood sacrifices to it of people he kills only for that purpose (the group is not the most moral bunch, but they wouldn't be completely okay with this)).
3. An optional weakness mentioned in the Gylou's entry is that they detest the sound of crying infants. I was considering having the event be a celebration of the Duke's son's birth, so that, if things get hectic and the baby starts crying, the Gylou will have to make saves or be staggered. Something like that.
Regardless the Sp abilities for the most part need to go. Black Tentacles will just kill.
Devils are all outright immune to poison.
Devils are all outright immune to poison.
Missed that bit. alternatively she can coat her weapons in holy oil.
Hi Big Lemon, maybe you should try for a different approach and leave the game on a cliff-hanger. The Gylou kidnaps the Duke and escapes with the party powerless to stop her.
Introduce the Gylou as a guest in at the Duke's celebration. Perhaps she has been masquerading as an important noble or something similar to gain an invite or has used some of her other powers to gain entrance.
Perhaps the Duke has been funding the Wizard Official and the party has been getting too close for comfort.
At some point in the proceedings the Gylou uses her persistent image to set off a chain of events that gives her the opportunity to get close to the Duke. Perhaps she uses the persistent image in concert with her summon ability. She grapples the duke, creating the tentacle cage and teleports out with the Duke. The Erinyes provide a handful for the party and other relatively powerful guests (i.e. build a balanced encounter).
The end result, assuming the party is relatively successful, is the party has made a lot of influential friends out of the guests they have saved, have been introduced to the BBEG and suddenly have a big motivation for the next stage when you all meet up again after your break.
Hi Big Lemon, maybe you should try for a different approach and leave the game on a cliff-hanger. The Gylou kidnaps the Duke and escapes with the party powerless to stop her.
Introduce the Gylou as a guest in at the Duke's celebration. Perhaps she has been masquerading as an important noble or something similar to gain an invite or has used some of her other powers to gain entrance.
Perhaps the Duke has been funding the Wizard Official and the party has been getting too close for comfort.
At some point in the proceedings the Gylou uses her persistent image to set off a chain of events that gives her the opportunity to get close to the Duke. Perhaps she uses the persistent image in concert with her summon ability. She grapples the duke, creating the tentacle cage and teleports out with the Duke. The Erinyes provide a handful for the party and other relatively powerful guests (i.e. build a balanced encounter).
The end result, assuming the party is relatively successful, is the party has made a lot of influential friends out of the guests they have saved, have been introduced to the BBEG and suddenly have a big motivation for the next stage when you all meet up again after your break.
I've never actually tried the Bad Guy Escapes ending before (Been GMing for a year).
Having the Gylou escape with the Duke's newborn son for a yet-unknown reason, could be a big deal. The players might try to fight it, fail, and it escapes, leaving them to deal with the weaker ones. The gylou wouldn't be particularly interested in fighting them, just getting what it came for and leaving.
Honestly, I'd just go with an Erinyes (CR8 with that Entangle ability that lets you break out the grapple rules, maybe reskin the ropes as steel nets or something) or maybe a Lilin from Tome of Horrors (CR5 also on the d20pfsrd.) Swap one of their At will SLA's for alter self so they can be incognito, and go to town!
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Hi Big Lemon, maybe you should try for a different approach and leave the game on a cliff-hanger. The Gylou kidnaps the Duke and escapes with the party powerless to stop her.
Introduce the Gylou as a guest in at the Duke's celebration. Perhaps she has been masquerading as an important noble or something similar to gain an invite or has used some of her other powers to gain entrance.
Perhaps the Duke has been funding the Wizard Official and the party has been getting too close for comfort.
At some point in the proceedings the Gylou uses her persistent image to set off a chain of events that gives her the opportunity to get close to the Duke. Perhaps she uses the persistent image in concert with her summon ability. She grapples the duke, creating the tentacle cage and teleports out with the Duke. The Erinyes provide a handful for the party and other relatively powerful guests (i.e. build a balanced encounter).
The end result, assuming the party is relatively successful, is the party has made a lot of influential friends out of the guests they have saved, have been introduced to the BBEG and suddenly have a big motivation for the next stage when you all meet up again after your break.
I've never actually tried the Bad Guy Escapes ending before (Been GMing for a year).
Having the Gylou escape with the Duke's newborn son for a yet-unknown reason, could be a big deal. The players might try to fight it, fail, and it escapes, leaving them to deal with the weaker ones. The gylou wouldn't be particularly interested in fighting them, just getting what it came for and leaving.
This excellent idea...I'll 2nd it. If there is an actual fight, she would kill one or more PCs per round, when played properly...shredding the party quickly. If she has need to go...BIG need to go...the party might survive a couple of basic attacks. In fact...if she's in a hurry...hit them with the black tentacles and run. That, by itself, shouldn't kill the party...but it'll stop them dead in their tracks...possibly with enemies closing. Can anyone dispel?
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Honestly, from a player standpoint I would not mind high-level creatures being used as indirect threats during lower levels. Seriously, it's a shame that some of the coolest creatures are reserved for high level play.
Going up against such beings indirectly or with special parameters in place can make for a great experience. You just have to handle them with care.
I've never actually tried the Bad Guy Escapes ending before (Been GMing for a year).
It's an excellent way to build up a villain for later. It can be irritating if it's abused, but just because a literary trope can be abused doesn't mean it needs to be taken off the table entirely.
Have the critter lose its temper at the social event as a crying brat drives the devil past its limit.
Then go nuts graphically dismembering others - see if the PCs can rescue Important-to-Plot-Persons.
Set up blood-splattered revenge when the game resumes!