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5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.
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So while the poison blog answered many questions, some people may still have some; I know I do.
The following will list some questions some people might have. The questions in color (OOC) are particularly important, since as far as I know they have not been answered by staff/development. The second question (first non-colored question) was addressed by the blog, but is somewhat in conflict with the PRD & CRB (the 3 spiders example), so I thought I'd mention it.
regarding quantity, timing, and stacking of saves:
Saves done on the poison's-target's turn (typically end of turn) always seem to be for curing the poison, never for saving against acquiring a new poison. I'm quite sure that is the case based on the blog.
However, I guess a weird exception would be if a creature poisoned itself though. In that case, would they have to roll 2+ saves on their turn? or just the 1+ (depending on dosage) for acquiring it? (in which case the poison 'timer' wouldn't start until next round)
Saves must ALSO always be made before the player's turn for the poisons that hit him before his turn (based on blog's example. With the exception of self-poisoning), but should/can all those doses bundled into one effectively concentrated dose, or rolled separately? Some people seem to say they should/could be, since that's what the CRB/PRD says/implies —and it saves dice rolls— but the blog seems to say that that's clearly not the case (scenario C).
Regarding failed-save-exposure of multiple doses of [contact/injury] poison:
When multiple doses of poison are acquired(failed save) outside of the target's turn, will each acquisition individually apply the poison effect/damage? Blog says yes, but is the answer still yes if only one save was given to the target for multiple poisons?(this question relies on the previous question, if [contact/injury] poisons could/should be stacked)
Note: I'm not talking about damage taken during the target's turn, but the damage from acquiring the poison. (if target fails a x+2+2 fort save would he still acquire 3 individual effect/damages, as well as the standard 1 effect/damage on the target's turn?)
I don't see why not, since they should both have as similar functionality as possible aside from having to roll less dice.
regarding poison with initial and secondary effect:
Subsequent doses of a poison never deals the initial effect more than once while the poison is still affecting the target. But, does that mean when a target acquires another dose of the poison, will the poison apply the secondary damage/effect instead, or simply apply no damage/effect at all since the initial already triggered?
touch injection: would touch injection function with ingested or inhaled poisons?
This is a quite minor question, but I thought I'd ask.
Poison conversion: would/should poisons converted by poison conversion result in their frequencies and onsets getting changed to ones appropriate for their new type? (injury poisons never have 10 minute onsets, so why would an ingested poison converted to injury poison still have a 10 minute onset?)
This is a big daddy question I would like answered in the FAQ
Question some people may wonder but which has already been answered by Jason Bulmahn:
If a save is succeeded for a poison during the target's round and more than 1 consecutive save is necessary to cure that poison, will the poison still deal it's effect/damage for that round?
Answer: no.
These are really minor questions that I also don't care much about, but maybe it's worth asking since they aren't answered as far as I saw, and some people might want to know.
Inhaled poison:
Do inhaled poisons have a limit of concentration to fit in x-sized flask? it's certainly a question where GM's common sense dominates, but if PF would officially just say something like "past 5 doses reduces range increment by 5' (or maybe 50%)" it might be nice.
Do inhaled poison clouds remain for any amount of time after they are deployed? (this is somewhat pertinent, but simple for DM to just house-rule)
While I'm certainly not saying people shouldn't give their opinions on this, I'm mainly asking these questions in hopes at least one or some of them (poison conversion, secondary effect) will be answered by developers and/or clarified in the future by FAQ.
Also, I guess if I missed something you can ask it here too. I was almost going to add "does concentrated inhaled poison increase AoE?" but it seems like a terrible question. I see no reason why it would if it already gets the higher DC & duration.
I guess I also forgot to ask what the range increment is in general for an inhaled poison. However, it seems pretty easy to assume/guess 10 ft since nearly everything thrown is 10 ft. (despite alchemist bombs, thunderstones, and throwing shields being 20 ft.).
Also wondering what people's opinions are on PCs/creatures determining if a target is poisoned.
Do you think it's something that should be allowed? Would it be allowed in combat against the hostile target? Perception check? Heal check? Both (if at a distance)?
Certainly some poison effects would be easy to spot, like nauseated, blind, paralyzed, unconscious, but it wouldn't be very clear if it's dealing hp damage or stat damage or sicked or staggered, wouldn't you think?
It's certainly quite a big issue for more expensive poisons since it decides whether a person is going to attempt to use again poison since it might be a bit of a waste if the target was already poisoned.
Joesi wrote: Also wondering what people's opinions are on PCs/creatures determining if a target is poisoned.
Do you think it's something that should be allowed?
There's a spell for it, aptly named Detect Poison.
Quote: Would it be allowed in combat against the hostile target? Sure, why not? Quote: Perception check? No, but you could use that skill to notice (some of the) symptoms or traces of the original poison. Quote: Heal check? Makes sense, but there's no rule for using that skill for detecting poisons.
Quote: Certainly some poison effects would be easy to spot, like nauseated, blind, paralyzed, unconscious, but it wouldn't be very clear if it's dealing hp damage or stat damage or sicked or staggered, wouldn't you think? Symptoms are easy to detect, but that does not mean you can be certain a poison is the cause. I guess there should be a Heal DC to know about poisons and their effects, but there isn't one.
Quote: Answered in the FAQ. What? Does this mean it WILL be answered in the FAQ but there is a delay for it to appear?
Because the old FAQ post as well as in the big blog post does not cover these questions.
Should I explain the questions again in another way or something? They seem more or less clear to me.
One of the most important questions is whether poison conversion changes the onset time and frequency of the poison or not.
Another rather important one is whether secondary effects apply instead of initial effects when the initial effect has been applied. The examples with greenblood oil doesn't have a primary/secondary effect to compare with.
The only question the FAQ/blog post already explained somewhat was whether or not doses of the same poison for that round should be bundled into one concentrated dose to save against. But that's exactly why the question was not in colored text; I just thought I'd throw it in there because the blog didn't address the somewhat dissonant mechanic that the CRB/PRD implies, and people seem to be confused about it. I could care less if it was answered though, since the current answer for the question is good enough for me (but the PRD/CRB should be edited a bit to be more clear).
You have good questions, but you should ask the questions individually in separate threads. I recommend starting with one of two of the most important ones, as if you do a bunch at once some will get ignored and not answered.
They don't like multi-question threads. You will need a separate thread for each question, and I think some of these were answered in the poison blog.
Quote: Saves done on the poison's-target's turn (typically end of turn) always seem to be for curing the poison, never for saving against acquiring a new poison. I'm quite sure that is the case based on the blog. Each save is poison specific. The save at the end is to cure an ongoing poison. It will never be to prevent a new poison because that save is made upon being inflicted with the poison. That information is also in the blog.
Quote: When multiple doses of poison are acquired(failed save) outside of the target's turn, will each acquisition individually apply the poison effect/damage? Blog says yes, but is the answer still yes if only one save was given to the target for multiple poisons?(this question relies on the previous question, if [contact/injury] poisons could/should be stacked) If you have to save against the same poison stacking you make one roll. If you saving against several types of poison then each one gets its own roll. That was in the FAQ.
Quote: But, does that mean when a target acquires another dose of the poison, will the poison apply the secondary damage/effect instead, or simply apply no damage/effect at all since the initial already triggered? You take the secondary effect of the poison again, and the DC increases.
Quote: would/should poisons converted by poison conversion result in their frequencies and onsets getting changed to ones appropriate for their new type There is no rule for changing the onset time. If they were to do that a new subset of rules would have to be created to determine what the new time would be.
Quote: Inhaled poison:
Do inhaled poisons have a limit of concentration to fit in x-sized flask? it's certainly a question where GM's common sense dominates, but if PF would officially just say something like "past 5 doses reduces range increment by 5' (or maybe 50%)" it might be nice.
Do inhaled poison clouds remain for any amount of time after they are deployed? (this is somewhat pertinent, but simple for DM to just house-rule)
The poison does not stay around. If it did the rules would say so.
As for concentrated poison I am assuming you are referring to this.
Quote: Concentrate poison: The alchemist can combine two doses of the same poison to increase their effects. This requires two doses of the poison and 1 minute of concentration. When completed, the alchemist has one dose of poison. The poison's frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This poison must be used within 1 hour of its creation or it is ruined. When paizo gives a specific number that is generally all you can use.
If you ask a question that is in the book it will get "no reply required".
wraithstrike wrote: Quote: Saves done on the poison's-target's turn (typically end of turn) always seem to be for curing the poison, never for saving against acquiring a new poison. I'm quite sure that is the case based on the blog. Each save is poison specific. The save at the end is to cure an ongoing poison. It will never be to prevent a new poison because that save is made upon being inflicted with the poison. That information is also in the blog.
I wasn't asking a question there, so I'm not sure why you're treating it like one. You didn't quote or address the question which came afterwards. If a creature poisons themselves, by the rules the contraction/initial check would indeed then be done during their turn (possibly even at the end of it). If they failed their save should then then take the poison effect twice (once for contracting it, another for the periodic), or only once? It's a pretty niche case, but if it applies to them only once, it means they're saving themselves from taking a round of poison damage they otherwise would have taken if anyone else applied it to them (or at least delaying it).
Quote: Quote: When multiple doses of poison are acquired(failed save) outside of the target's turn, will each acquisition individually apply the poison effect/damage? Blog says yes, but is the answer still yes if only one save was given to the target for multiple poisons?(this question relies on the previous question, if [contact/injury] poisons could/should be stacked) If you have to save against the same poison stacking you make one roll. If you saving against several types of poison then each one gets its own roll. That was in the FAQ.
Yeah I guess #6 does explain it more or less, but I suppose the reason I asked is for clairity and realism:
- Logically/realistically speaking the same amount of poison should deal the same amount of damage regardless if it was 3 separate attacks or 1.
- I interpreted "still only takes the effect once" as a bit vague, potentially referring to the periodic damage, but I suppose they were talking about the initial damage.
Quote: Quote: But, does that mean when a target acquires another dose of the poison, will the poison apply the secondary damage/effect instead, or simply apply no damage/effect at all since the initial already triggered? You take the secondary effect of the poison again, and the DC increases.
How do you know the secondary effect would be applied again? I guess you're inferring that from rule #4? it doesn't mention secondary damage, but I suppose if combined with the CRB rule that initial damage can only be applied once, I guess one would be logically forced to deal the secondary damage. True enough I guess, but it isn't explicitly stated in the FAQ.
Quote: Quote: would/should poisons converted by poison conversion result in their frequencies and onsets getting changed to ones appropriate for their new type There is no rule for changing the onset time. If they were to do that a new subset of rules would have to be created to determine what the new time would be.
In my opinion a new subset of rules DO indeed need to be created/specified. It doesn't make any sense for an inhaled/injury poison to have a 10 minute onset when they are normally instant, or for ingested foods to affect people instantly then they normally don't.
Quote: As for concentrated poison I am assuming you are referring to this.Quote: Concentrate poison: The alchemist can combine two doses of the same poison to increase their effects. This requires two doses of the poison and 1 minute of concentration. When completed, the alchemist has one dose of poison. The poison's frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This poison must be used within 1 hour of its creation or it is ruined. When paizo gives a specific number that is generally all you can use.
If you ask a question that is in the book it will get "no reply required". I'm referring to inhaled/ingested poisons, since they do not need that discovery in order to be "concentrated".
Thanks for your post; it was quite helpful. I think it helps me to explain my point better, remove questions, and/or clarify that this is more of a plead to sensibility and realism than it is just asking what RAW would be.
Aside from the primary/secondary effect thing, the only answer I really cared about was the poison conversion one, so maybe I'll re-post that one alone.
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