| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That person turned around and gave us Snowball.I don't complaining about someone who can't see or hear you is needed in this conversation.
I feel better...
Every prepared Arcane Caster has to pay that price actually. So witches and Magus too. Most games I know would houserule becuase they didn't even know it existed anyway. Its a little silly and mostly hurts in the PFS setting where you can't fight RAW. It gets to be a little expensive at the higher levels though, the levels you actually take the PrC.
Are the Pre-Constructed Spellbooks from Ultimate Magic allowed at this mystery thing everyone talks about, PFS?
|
I don't know about "untouchably awful" - Archmage and Radiant Servant of Pelor were both amazing. Holy Liberator and Templar were both good too, and that's just off the top of my head.
So you can think of 4 pretty good ones out of the almost 800 that WotC published?
I think you just CONFIRMED the whole "untouchable awful" theory.
you know in PFS you can copy the spells out of the enemy spell book right?
seriously, there are a ton of adventures with tons of spells in spell books for PFS. It's not hard, and while it has a cost, it's pretty small by comparison.
I know you can, but in my experience there haven't actually been that many spellbooks. Its mostly clerics or spontaneous casters. I felt like my witch must've killed like 10 oracle BBEGs in a row. The bigger thing is that I don't feel like you should tax someone further for finally reaching the PrC. Worse when you level up you don't have those higher level spells, unless you pay for the scrolls or I think if you wrote them in earlier from a spellbook you somehow obtained. I forget if you can write a higher level spell in or not.
The problem here is that "spells" are the Wizard's core ability, even with PrC levels. The ruling by JB basically halts a wizard's progress for his or her entire PrC experience. Sorcerers still learn new spells known, but wizards don't get their 2/level? No other class has to pay a tax just to advance their main feature like this - only spellbook users.
Nobody but prepared arcane casters can just buy more class features with gold, either.
I would dearly love it if a fighter could observe a cool feat in use, go spend 135 gp and add it to his Feats Known.
==Aelryinth
|
|
I don't know about "untouchably awful" - Archmage and Radiant Servant of Pelor were both amazing. Holy Liberator and Templar were both good too, and that's just off the top of my head.So you can think of 4 pretty good ones out of the almost 800 that WotC published?
I think you just CONFIRMED the whole "untouchable awful" theory.
I can think of two more off the top of mine Abjurant champion and initiate of the sevenfold veil
There are at least two feats that directly allow you to take extra spells, an arcane one that lets you grab one or two from your list, and a paladin one that lets you grab from other lists.
So, yes, an arcane spell is equal to a feat. And you can buy it. Whereas a fighter going to a fighter school can't purchase additional feats known, euphemistically referred to this real-life thing as 'extra training'.
==Aelryinth
Which is why the guy complaining about having to buy spells is hilarious, as he's the only class who can buy feats with gold.
heck, this is the ONLY edition of the game where you got spells for free. 1E and 2E, you got spells at first level, and that was IT. You had to beg/borrow/steal to get more.
And that's why spellbooks were the single most valuable treasure items you could recover. 1) copy all the spells down for your wizard, YAY!
2) sell the thing off for 1000 gp/spell level in the book!
===Aelryinth
|
Again you're not buying feats... it's not equivalent at all!
This is akin to the fighter buying weapons with trip, disarm, etc on it. Or buying a weapon with a utility effect.
Going back to the "good ol" day like you did there, doesn't really strengthen your argument, it just shows how painful it was back then.
Your comparison to feats is bad, and you should feel bad.
That's just it. It wasn't painful. The wizards got their spells, anyways.
In PF, it's even easier. Spells are cheap and freely available, and he's still complaining about it. And you can get any spell you like, generally speaking, and don't have to swap or be dependent on what is in this spellbook you just seized.
They are buying class features. No, that's not equal to buying another club. Arcane spells are the class features of casters, and considerably more important then just routine weapons, especially as you level. They might be equivalent to MAGIC WEAPONS...but if so, they are getting their magic weapons for dirt cheap.
If you can think of a magic weapon that is about 125k, which is the cost to acquire the core spells level 1-9, in PF, I'd like to hear about it.
===Aelryinth
even if you don't get spellbooks, head down to yee old magic shoppee and buy a few scrolls and hope you roll good on your spellcraft check
:) It's generally spelled "Ye Olde Magick Shoppe' !
==Aelryinth
|
|
even if you don't get spellbooks, head down to yee old magic shoppee and buy a few scrolls and hope you roll good on your spellcraft check:) It's generally spelled "Ye Olde Magick Shoppe' !
==Aelryinth
Just a note that was not me agreeing with you persay this was me suddenly finding a fix for my problem I was haveing it'll still be really expensive, but now my DM can't just say no :)
EDIT I believe both sides of the discussion have merit, yes PF went beyond rewarding you for sticking single classed, they made doing otherwise look almost stupid for many classes, sure there's a few good ones for druid or cleric, and the psionic prestiuge classes are ok, but outside them why multyclass?
For future reference, it's 'per se', not persay. And slow down, simple spelling errors, like 'haveing' and 'multyclass', don't make you look good on the net. (having, multi-class)
Not blitzing you, just letting you know.
==Aelryinth
We're talking about 2 spells per level learned. The "fluff" behind these spells is that they're gained as part of your continual research as you level and gain more experience.
This doesn't stop happening when you join a PrC. There's simply no justification for disallowing it to continue.
In fact, you still gained your two spells per level in 3.X. Pathfinder changed this, but why? Nothing else changed to warrant such a change.
Why specifically exclude wizards though? Why make them pay extra? Its not just a prestige class. Its something you worked to get into and you have to be taxed extra for leveling in!
Are the Pre-Constructed Spellbooks from Ultimate Magic allowed at this mystery thing everyone talks about, PFS?
No, they're not. The only things allowed from Chapter 2 of UM are the new Familiars. I think the easiest way to get more spells in PFS is to play with other PFS characters with spellbooks, but YMMV.
heck, this is the ONLY edition of the game where you got spells for free. 1E and 2E, you got spells at first level, and that was IT. You had to beg/borrow/steal to get more.
The recommendation in 2E's DMG was to give one free spell when Wizards leveled up. Even so, it was a lot harder to get new spells back then! Thankfully, the DMs I had were willing to work with the players to make sure they at least got something, even if it wasn't necessarily exactly what they wanted. :)
ObTopic: I've always thought that Prestige Classes should be more about theming and roleplay than power, and for groups/campaigns where the players don't care about the epitome of optimization then there's a bunch of interesting ones. There's less in Pathfinder in general (thanks to Archetypes) and maybe even less for Wizards, but still a few. More would be neat, as would adapting some of the things from 3.5 (working with your GM), but I think the game is set up OK as is.
Waaaaah! My overpowered class isn't getting as much free stuff as I want it to!
Just becuase he's overpowered doesn't mean you should bully him or make his life unnecasarily rough. Thats not balance. Also, its a good way to get turned into a frog.
I think the easiest way to get more spells in PFS is to play with other PFS characters with spellbooks, but YMMV.
Back when I played PFS there was a player who asked on a facebook page who else played a wizard, that way he could play down and coordinate how to gain the most spells per level. Bit munchkiny, but he thought it was the quickest cheapest way to power I guess.
ObTopic: I've always thought that Prestige Classes should be more about theming and roleplay than power, and for groups/campaigns where the players don't care about the epitome of optimization then there's a bunch of interesting ones. There's less in Pathfinder in general (thanks to Archetypes) and maybe even less for Wizards, but still a few. More would be neat, as would adapting some of the things from 3.5 (working with your GM), but I think the game is set up OK as is.
I completely agree! I would like to see better options still, I get really disappointed when I see archetypes that look like they could be flavorful and useful, and they're just what I need! but then they disappoint me by removing good features or giving lackluster ones. I always liked the fun and flavorful ones myself, I just want to remain viable/useful.
It's not a big deal, it's a prestige class, if you can't stomach having to pay a few hundred gold, you're doing it wrong.
On the contrary, it's entirely up to the GM as to whether it's a big deal or not. For example (as already mentioned in a way) if your game is about stopping some evil religious cult, then you're probably not going to be running into many enemy spellbooks (plenty of [un]holy symbols though!)
Also, many GMs don't like "ye olde magick shoppe" in their games, which makes just stopping at the corner and buying spell scrolls incredibly inconvenient, if not impossible.
It's not a big deal, it's a prestige class, if you can't stomach having to pay a few hundred gold, you're doing it wrong.On the contrary, it's entirely up to the GM as to whether it's a big deal or not. For example (as already mentioned in a way) if your game is about stopping some evil religious cult, then you're probably not going to be running into many enemy spellbooks (plenty of [un]holy symbols though!)
My plan is to put all their holy symbols on our sorcerer who maxed bluff, pretend to be their priest, begin infiltration and convert them all to another diety.
Kidding aside, yeah, most of my games involve no spellbooks. Wizards take a bit long to make I guess, but most of the time I'm killing Clerics, sorcs, and oracles but no magus, witches, or wizards. So if I'm not getting the new spells and I'm stuck in a place I can't get my scrolls even, I won't be getting any new spells when I wake up in the morning. Burning my wealth on scrolls is pretty meh in itself.
|
|
If your GM doesn't want to give you what you want, then it doesn't matter what the book "says" he'll change things as they want.
If your GM restricts access to scrolls and spell books, then you're hosed anyhow regardless of things.
Your option is to not use a prestige class if the GM isn't making spell books and scrolls available.
Waaaaah! My overpowered class isn't getting as much free stuff as I want it to!
Beg your pardon?
My character was 10th wizard. Now he's 5th and finalized. That means I lost what, four level 5th spells I'd gain for free?Instead I have to fork over 1,125gp x4 for a scroll with that spell and write it over into my spellbook. Unless your gm somehow allows you to just pay the scribings cost, then yes, it's cheap.
Did I butcher the wording when I made the thread?
I did mean to say that the varierity to the PrC's is rather dull and some of the themes a bit too meh in my own, personal taste. I don't care for power, if I did, I'd play a Dragon Disciple(get caster levels back trough guilds in Inner Sea Magic) or Paladin. Not that this matters, who's the strongest wasn't the topic. It basically was "I think three evil summoners/pet classes, two crafters (savant, arclord) and a language and scroll maniac were a bit limiting compared to say, Grand Marshall or Guild Poisoner or Living Monolith, all which are more interesting, to me, than learning more languages or using scrolls differently.
Waaaaah! My overpowered class isn't getting as much free stuff as I want it to!Beg your pardon?
My character was 10th wizard. Now he's 5th and finalized. That means I lost what, four level 5th spells I'd gain for free?Instead I have to fork over 1,125gp x4 for a scroll with that spell and write it over into my spellbook. Unless your gm somehow allows you to just pay the scribings cost, then yes, it's cheap.
Its only 5000 gold! What was I going to buy? A hat of disguise? Cracked Dusty rose Ioun stone? a +1 mithril Klar? Or all that together for about 4.5k?
Its only 5000 gold! What was I going to buy? A hat of disguise? Cracked Dusty rose Ioun stone? a +1 mithril Klar? Or all that together for about 4.5k?Waaaaah! My overpowered class isn't getting as much free stuff as I want it to!Beg your pardon?
My character was 10th wizard. Now he's 5th and finalized. That means I lost what, four level 5th spells I'd gain for free?Instead I have to fork over 1,125gp x4 for a scroll with that spell and write it over into my spellbook. Unless your gm somehow allows you to just pay the scribings cost, then yes, it's cheap.
That's just 5,000gp for four 5th level spells. What about the 1,650gp for when I level up, and the 700gp for the handy 4th level spells? That's out of 62.000gp if you use default wbl.
As it is, multiclassing out at the earliest, 5th, costs 5800gp to get the bare minimum of two spells per level up to 10th level to use our most base class feature. If a martial had to constantly put money into his weapon to be even able to use it, you'd feel the same. "You need a +2 weapon or your class features don't work if you prestige or multiclass into another class."
Thank god for pre-constructed spellbooks, a dhampir ally with Blood Transcript and willingness to share his new spells.
Its only 5000 gold! What was I going to buy? A hat of disguise? Cracked Dusty rose Ioun stone? a +1 mithril Klar? Or all that together for about 4.5k?Waaaaah! My overpowered class isn't getting as much free stuff as I want it to!Beg your pardon?
My character was 10th wizard. Now he's 5th and finalized. That means I lost what, four level 5th spells I'd gain for free?Instead I have to fork over 1,125gp x4 for a scroll with that spell and write it over into my spellbook. Unless your gm somehow allows you to just pay the scribings cost, then yes, it's cheap.
Uh... No. How about I craft a blessed book instead. No? a wand of haste? Or maybe we could craft a cloak of resistance +3. Or a lesser metamagic rod of empower and a pearl of power 1 to boot.
Uh... No. How about I craft a blessed book instead. No? a wand of haste? Or maybe we could craft a cloak of resistance +3. Or a lesser metamagic rod of empower and a pearl of power 1 to boot.
Thats what they expect you to craft! My last wizard walks around in a mask and spiked armor with a spiked shield. No one expect you to actually be a wizard. Entirely unrelated to the thread though...
Back on topic, yeah, paying for spells is meh. Insult to injury?
|
|
So role play searching for a wizard academy to go study at, or a wizard to study under. Then all you're doing is paying nominal costs and scribing fees.
In almost any world where Wizards exist, formal training areas for wizards exist.
-edit-
You can also scribe spells higher than you can cast... so make one trip with a bag of gold.
So role play searching for a wizard academy to go study at, or a wizard to study under. Then all you're doing is paying nominal costs and scribing fees.
Is a PrC Wizard/Witch/Magus not doing anything to actively gain spells that they were doing before? I mean, I'm fine with roleplaying looking for spells. Thats great downtime roleplaying! Just don't let fluff hurt mechanics too much.
So role play searching for a wizard academy to go study at, or a wizard to study under. Then all you're doing is paying nominal costs and scribing fees.
In almost any world where Wizards exist, formal training areas for wizards exist.
-edit-
You can also scribe spells higher than you can cast... so make one trip with a bag of gold.
Simpler said than done. This is GM-fiat territory.
So role play searching for a wizard academy to go study at, or a wizard to study under. Then all you're doing is paying nominal costs and scribing fees.Is a PrC Wizard/Witch/Magus not doing anything to actively gain spells that they were doing before? I mean, I'm fine with roleplaying looking for spells. Thats great downtime roleplaying! Just don't let fluff hurt mechanics too much.
Technically, in their downtime they are researching and using rare and specialized class abilities, and mastering those, instead of continuing the indepth research that hallmarks the wizardly classes.
Remember, it's a class feature, not fluff. Maybe all wizard abilities come from getting those two free spells per level, eh? It's your understanding from doing the reseach that spurs everything else on. When you go into a different PrC, you're going for a different source of your power.
==Aelryinth
So role play searching for a wizard academy to go study at, or a wizard to study under. Then all you're doing is paying nominal costs and scribing fees.Is a PrC Wizard/Witch/Magus not doing anything to actively gain spells that they were doing before? I mean, I'm fine with roleplaying looking for spells. Thats great downtime roleplaying! Just don't let fluff hurt mechanics too much.Technically, in their downtime they are researching and using rare and specialized class abilities, and mastering those, instead of continuing the indepth research that hallmarks the wizardly classes.
Remember, it's a class feature, not fluff. Maybe all wizard abilities come from getting those two free spells per level, eh? It's your understanding from doing the reseach that spurs everything else on. When you go into a different PrC, you're going for a different source of your power.
==Aelryinth
I disagree with this. The wizard can gain those spells regardless, his ability to cast them is the class feature. Without getitng those spells its like giving them a gun with no ammo. PrCs do not give you a new source of power, a diabolist wizard is still a prepared caster. He might get some nifty boons for making contracts with devils, but he still uses a spellbook, studies magic, and prepares spells out of that book. The loss of studying out of a school of thought makes sense, but they don't just stop doing magic out of a book.
Yes, but their focus is not researching new spells. It's wielding whatever new powers they get from their PrC, and focusing their work on THAT, not research. That's the difference in focus. Spell research is now a sideline.
Yes, they can still do research...but now it's extra, because they have to practice and refine their new abilities. Ergo, they must spend gold and assemble a library...or simply buy other spells.
For the Wizard, the new spells are his FOCUS...all his powers extend from the insight of doing the testing and research and study that gets him those two spells. He doesn't even need a library...he's tinkering and learning new magic.
The PrC is tinkering and learning new special PrC powers, INSTEAD of gaining new spells. He's subbing one for the others.
Or are you simply going to give him his new powers and all the benefits of his old class? Seems like cheating to me.
==Aelryinth
Yes, but their focus is not researching new spells. It's wielding whatever new powers they get from their PrC, and focusing their work on THAT, not research. That's the difference in focus. Spell research is now a sideline.
Yes, they can still do research...but now it's extra, because they have to practice and refine their new abilities. Ergo, they must spend gold and assemble a library...or simply buy other spells.
For the Wizard, the new spells are his FOCUS...all his powers extend from the insight of doing the testing and research and study that gets him those two spells. He doesn't even need a library...he's tinkering and learning new magic.
The PrC is tinkering and learning new special PrC powers, INSTEAD of gaining new spells. He's subbing one for the others.
Or are you simply going to give him his new powers and all the benefits of his old class? Seems like cheating to me.
==Aelryinth
Their focus is always researching spells. Thats just a part of being a prepared caster. They already lose the bonus they get for the school of thought, their specilialized school.
They already have the benefit of their spell slots. They already have the spells available, It is not cheating to not want to pay for the spells I should've gotten in the first place. Mechanically your just making them pay out of pocket, fluff your attacking the idea that they can't be a wizard while using wizard spells. Why not take away spellslots while your at it?
Instead I have to fork over 1,125gp x4 for a scroll with that spell and write it over into my spellbook. Unless your gm somehow allows you to just pay the scribings cost, then yes, it's cheap.
Pathfinder Core Rulebook, p.219, heading "Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook", subhead "Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll", last paragraph:
"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more."
So, here's the actual market price of getting a spell from an NPC:
By Spell Level
0 —> 2 gp 5 sp
1 —> 5 gp
2 —> 20 gp
3 —> 45 gp
4 —> 80 gp
5 —> 125 gp
6 —> 180 gp
7 —> 245 gp
8 —> 360 gp
9 —> 405 gp
Of course, if you don't have a blessed book, you have to pay scribing cost on top of that.
Yes, but their focus is not researching new spells. It's wielding whatever new powers they get from their PrC, and focusing their work on THAT, not research. That's the difference in focus. Spell research is now a sideline.
Yes, they can still do research...but now it's extra, because they have to practice and refine their new abilities. Ergo, they must spend gold and assemble a library...or simply buy other spells.
For the Wizard, the new spells are his FOCUS...all his powers extend from the insight of doing the testing and research and study that gets him those two spells. He doesn't even need a library...he's tinkering and learning new magic.
The PrC is tinkering and learning new special PrC powers, INSTEAD of gaining new spells. He's subbing one for the others.
Or are you simply going to give him his new powers and all the benefits of his old class? Seems like cheating to me.
==Aelryinth
Their focus is always researching spells. Thats just a part of being a prepared caster. They already lose the bonus they get for the school of thought, their specilialized school.
They already have the benefit of their spell slots. They already have the spells available, It is not cheating to not want to pay for the spells I should've gotten in the first place. Mechanically your just making them pay out of pocket, fluff your attacking the idea that they can't be a wizard while using wizard spells. Why not take away spellslots while your at it?
On the contrary. Clerics and druids and witches are all prepared casters, and have nothing to do with research. You are setting a false bar.
All wizards are not researchers. Some are manipulators, some are lazy summoners. Some are manipulators. Some invest their time and energy in powers that have nothing to do with spell research, and everything to do with furthering other areas of study.
You want to have your cake and eat it, too. Face it: Core wizards are the researchers and tinkerers of the arcane world. PrC's are the monospecialist delvers into other powers that standard wizards don't get to touch.
If you get my free spells per level, can I have a couple of your PrC abilities in return for the same cost? Thanks. You already took my caster level and spell slots with you. Why do you need my free spells?
Be content with what you get. It's so easily replaced you aren't going to miss it.
==Aelryinth
On the contrary. Clerics and druids and witches are all prepared casters, and have nothing to do with research. You are setting a false bar
And you are twisting my words. You know I meant prepared arcane casters. Magus, Witch, and Wizard. This is not productive.
It's easily replaced only if you find yourself in a friendly city with a wizarding college every time you level up.
That's not usually the case.
Actually, at level 9, and when you buy Teleport, you can go to that city every time you want more spells. You only need to go there by land ONCE.
Trying to argue access is important once you can skip a thousand miles on a whim isn't going to work here.
Any time before then...spells levels 1-4 are easy to find in almost any city over a thousand people. I'm not seeing the pain, here.
==Aelryinth
|
|
I think most players end up with more than their default 2 per lvl spells as a wizard, that comes from gm "fiat"
a lvl 20 sorcerer knows 34 spells (not including cantrips)
A wizard at lvl 1 with 20 int, and then at lvl 20 without scribing extra will know 46 spells.
If these 12 spells really make the difference you need to stop playing wizards and just go with a sorcerer.
Or considering the spells known difference, you can go sorcerer and continue to get your spells known and be "on par" with those wizards that didn't get one for free for 6 or so levels. or you'll be ahead if not otherwise.
If your GM isn't accommodating to the whole culture that a wizard requires, you need to just not play a wizard. the issue of prestige classes not giving a wizard spells is not the issue in this scenario EVER. It's the GM. And even in a world of pure wizards without prestige classes, the versatility of your spell book is compromised by not being able to scribe scrolls, so why play one?
If it's "I want to play a wizard" despite my GM not wanting wizards to be played how they should... give up on it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
the SHORT:
if you want to be a multiclassed arcane go sorc otherwise dont bother
the LONG:
YES you can research...... yes you can take another NPC spellbook BUT
will you get the spells you want or get whatever they have in their spellbook (you better hope they are the same specialist as you or you lose a slot per day as well)?
will you have them right as you get the new spell level or have to wait a few weeks as you research them ?
do you have k's and k's of gold to toss away on stuff you get for freeor would staying a wizard and getting a magic cloak or something be way better....
does your DM allow all inclusive magic spellbook shops? mine doesn't. I haven't see a magic item shop in 10 - 15 years.
What do you get with the prestige class? a +1 here or there? an imp familiar? is it worth not having SM7 and plane shift in you book right as you level...... I dont think so.