Spellstrike and Combat Maneuvers

[Teron Starwhisper]

So, I'm making a bladebound magus that uses a scorpion whip instead of a more traditional slashing weapon like a longsword or bastard sword. I'd like to be able to trip and disarm bad guys while still casting spells through my weapon, but I'm not sure if this would work.

Spellstrike says that I get a free melee attack when using a touch spell, and the combat maneuvers entry in the core rule book says I can use one as a melee attack, full-attack, or attack of opportunity.

As far as what I'm reading, it sounds like what I'm planning on doing is fine. I'll run it by my DM of course, and if it's okay as far as rules go, I think it'll be fine. Plus, he'll probably like the idea.

I'd just like to know what you guys think before I commit to anything. I just really like the idea of tripping a bad guy and setting him on fire at the same time.

[Kazaan]

To deliver a touch spell via spellstrike, it must be a normal melee attack. When you replace it with a combat maneuver (which, mind you, must be Disarm, Trip, or Sunder as those are the only ones that can be swapped in for a melee attack), it no longer qualifies to deliver the spell. There's actually a feat that's required to deliver a spell via spellstrike on a trip combat maneuver with a quarterstaff; Tripping Staff. So, as much as I like the flavor, RAW, it ain't allowed.

[Teron Starwhisper]

Well, dang. Maybe I'll speak to my GM. I haven't put anything on paper yet, but maybe he'll let me take the same feat but for whips instead.

Thanks for the input!

[Shfish]

FYI, you technically can't use a scorpion whip with the bladebound. Specifically it calls for a one-handed slashing weapon...a scorpion whip is a light weapon. If your DM looks at the handed-ness of the weapon as either one or two handed, then your golden. If he however goes the more conservative route and decides the one-handed weapon is specifically different than a light weapon, he is totally correct to do so.

[Teron Starwhisper]

Oh, I think so long as it's a slashing weapon it won't be a problem. I played a bladebound magus in another game and I was allowed to use a trident so...yeah.

[Nefreet]

You can sunder using Spellstrike, just keep in mind that whatever energy damage you're doing is halved before calculating the item's hardness.

[Mathwei ap Niall]

Kazaan wrote:

To deliver a touch spell via spellstrike, it must be a normal melee attack. When you replace it with a combat maneuver (which, mind you, must be Disarm, Trip, or Sunder as those are the only ones that can be swapped in for a melee attack), it no longer qualifies to deliver the spell. There's actually a feat that's required to deliver a spell via spellstrike on a trip combat maneuver with a quarterstaff; Tripping Staff. So, as much as I like the flavor, RAW, it ain't allowed.

That's not exactly true.

That feats only real benefit is to allow you to treat all Quarterstaves as if they have the trip special quality.
The special entry directly contradicts the faq ruling on spellstrike which states that touch spells still function exactly the same as normal and Spellstrike just adds another way to deliver them.

In other words you CAN attempt a trip CM (which is a type of attack roll) and on a successful trip discharge your spell.

[Kazaan]

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

The special entry directly contradicts the faq ruling on spellstrike which states that touch spells still function exactly the same as normal and Spellstrike just adds another way to deliver them.

In other words you CAN attempt a trip CM (which is a type of attack roll) and on a successful trip discharge your spell.

That only begs the question, "Can you deliver a Touch spell using a combat maneuver?" It doesn't outright contradict anything until that question has been answered. The rules call out explicitly that you can deliver a touch spell by making an Unarmed Strike or a Natural Attack, but does that extend to a trip? How about a bull-rush? Grapple? It says that the spell discharges when you touch anything or anyone, even inadvertently. What about touching the ground? What about when someone makes an unarmed strike or a natural attack against you while you're holding the charge? Does that count as a touch? Basically, is "Touch" a generic term in this case or is it a specific mechanical term that involves only certain kinds of "touching" but not others?

[Quandary]

If you are delivering a Trip/Disarm/whatever with a weapon attack, then that still is an attack with that weapon.
How are you not making an attack with a polearm when you make a Trip with a polearm? CMBs are explicitly attacks.

If you want to raise questions about the 'any touch discharges' outside of attack rolls, that is just extraneous to this subject.
CMBs are attack rolls.
The rules here AREN'T specifying 'normal attack rolls targeting AC' or otherwise excluding 'alternate' attack rolls like CMBs.

[Kazaan]

Quandary wrote:

If you are delivering a Trip/Disarm/whatever with a weapon attack, then that still is an attack with that weapon.

How are you not making an attack with a polearm when you make a Trip with a polearm? CMBs are explicitly attacks.

If you want to raise questions about the 'any touch discharges' outside of attack rolls, that is just extraneous to this subject.
CMBs are attack rolls.
The rules here AREN'T specifying 'normal attack rolls targeting AC' or otherwise excluding 'alternate' attack rolls like CMBs.

How, exactly, is it extraneous? The question at hand is whether a combat maneuver that uses the weapon can be used to deliver a touch attack just because the weapon is "in contact" with them (generic use of the term 'touch') or if it specifically requires a melee attack to be delivered and that a Trip or Disarm (which replaces your melee attack) doesn't qualify. That leads back directly to the default state of Touch attacks. If I am holding the charge of a Touch spell and Spellstrike isn't in play, I can either deliver it by a melee Touch attack or by an Unarmed Strike/Natural Attack. Does replacing your Unarmed Strike with a Trip maneuver still qualify to deliver the "on touch" effect? Or does it have to be specifically either a melee Touch or an Unarmed Strike to avoid ridiculous situations like "Oh, you touched the ground and discharge your Shocking Grasp against the entire world." or "Oh, you touched your clothes. They take significant damage and are now destroyed. You're naked." If it can't even discharge on an unarmed trip, it stands to reason that, barring a feat that allows an exception, you can't discharge on a weapon trip.

[Quandary]

How? Because as a question it applies whether or not you are using CMBs.
We can ignore the entire 'any touch' wording because it doesn't change anything for CMBs,
if it discharges because you touch your clothes, it does that when you plan to make a 'normal' attack as well.

CMBs are explicitly stated to be attack rolls, the wording doesn't exclude them, so they are treated identical to 'normal' attack rolls here. A Trip/Disarm/Sunder via UAS is still a UAS attack, just as it would still be a Polearm or Lance attack if those weapons were used (Lance Charge damage bonus would apply to Sunders with a Lance, because it still is a Lance attack roll). Spellstrike requires a melee attack made with a wielded weapon, which excludes maneuvers like Grapple and Over-Run/Bullrush (unless something lets you do those via a weapon), but for CMBs like Trip/Disarm/Sunder, all the conditions are being met. This goes both ways, something like Barbarian Spirit Totem gives Miss Chance vs. melee attacks (or ranged), which also applies vs. CMBs which are still attacks. There's tons of similar cases in the game.

This isn't depending on some judgement that the CMB is 'touching' the target, the CMB is the result of a successful melee attack roll, and melee attack rolls (not specified to be 'normal') are EXPLICITLY stated to be a means to deliver Touch Charges, independent of the 'any touch' wording. Nothing in my previous post suggest that CMB Touch Charge delivery depended on the 'any touch' wording, it works because it is an attack roll with a melee weapon.

I'm not really aware of any ability that specifically only works on 'normal' (non-CMB) attack rolls, although some may effectively not be compatable with some maneuvers if they depend on doing damage (although Sunder does damage, so IS compatable with many of those abilities). They could theoretically make that distinction (although there isn't really any specific game term to refer to 'normal, non-CMB attack rolls' succinctly), but it just isn't commonly done... Certainly it isn't done here.