Rebalancing the classes without changing the rules

[Hugo Rune]

There have been many threads on this forum that boil down to the Wizard is the best class, rogues suck, spell casters are better than martial characters etc.

Spell casters in particular and some of the other classes have powerful abilities that can only be used a limited number of times per day and are generally weak when those abilities aren't used. Whilst the martial and skill based classes have abilities that can be used whenever required, but those abilities aren't as powerful as the limited use abilities.

The guidelines for structuring encounters seem to average on 25% of the party's resources being drained in an average encounter, which follows that there should be an average of 4 encounters a day. Knowing and expecting this (i.e. metagaming) allows the limited use abilities to be used relatively freely. But if there were a lot more weaker encounters then the limited use abilities would have to be carefully rationed in case there's a hard encounter next. This would allow the martial and skill based classes to shine more. This could be further enhanced by setting the overall sum of expected daily encounters to be 120-150% of the party resources. The players would need to play smarter, conserve their resources and pick and choose which encounters they engage in and which they retreat from.

[kyrt-ryder]

The problem with this is that the martials/rogues are losing resources too. Hit points. When healing becomes too expensive (either in Cure wands, Cleric Channels, lay on hands, etc) then one of two things happens.

A: The Cleric decides he's willing to play healbot and expend his personal resources to restore those of the fighter, putting him way behind the mage in terms of spellcasting resources and thus ending the adventuring day before the mage runs out of gas (or allowing the mage even more firepower during the limited adventuring day)

B: Nothing changes, and you have characters dying because hit points and cure wands run out.

However, one patch you might introduce in conjunction with this would be integrating some kind of self-healing system, wherein characters can recover a portion of health without the use of resources, such as by resting over time or whatnot.

I'm actually a fan of making the Heal Skill really work as advertised, restoring a boatload of HP relative to the Healer's Rank and check result at a cost of nothing but time.

[Atarlost]

I think Hugo doesn't mean forcing the party to keep going for more than 4 APL encounters, but for maybe 8 APL-2 encounters. That's not going to stress the HP supplies much more than 4 APL encounters.

The problem is that it doesn't really help. It means more mooks and nothing trashes mooks like a caster. A caster can neutralize a half dozen mooks with one spell. The only class that can readily take down more than one a turn with weapon damage is a dwarven cleaving druid. Casters will need fewer spells per encounter because their saves will stick more often.

The other problem is that this actually benefits CODzilla. They rely heavily on multi-hour duration buffs and against APL-2 opponents unaugmented medium BAB isn't bad. And they still have those spells.

[Hugo Rune]

More encounters provides for more variety as well. The spellcaster may well be able to deal with half a dozen mooks, but that isn't going to help against traps or hazards. Also if the party has to pick and choose which encounters they engage in then they will need to dedicate more limited resources to stealth and scouting. Ambush encounters, use of terrain and similar techniques will also help with the high encounter variety. Dropping in the occasional tough encounter as well will reinforce the need to know the enemy because a party kitted up for multiple weak encounters will hurt when hit with a tough encounter but with proper reconnaisance could plan to avoid it and then return and hit it hard when properly prepared.

The end result *should hopefully* be that most encounters aren't particularly deadly but continued consistent poor strategy and tactics wears the party's resources out quickly but clever play is rewarded with fast progress and all the party members get to shine and contribute.

[Kolokotroni]

There are a bunch of problems with this approach.

First, its not fun or constructive to not participate in an encounter. Thats why wizards have a heck of alot more resources then they did in early editions of the rules. There is a difference between not dominating an encounter and not doing much of anything while another character or characters actually get to participate. Its one thing for a character to be able to shine, its another for a character to more or less sit an encounter out.

Second, the game isnt just fighter, wizard, rogue cleric anymore. There are LOTS of classes with limited use abilities. Not all of them are world beating. The monk is a classic example of one of the 'weaker' classes, but he has a limited use ability, Ki. Monks, Paladins, Rangers, bards, barbarians, inquisitors, cavaliers, ninja, all take a hit from this approach almost as significantly as a full caster does. They dont all need to be 'taken down a peg'.

Third, this approach does nothing for the classes that are probably the most problematic. The druid and the summoner. They still have their powerful pets and personal combat power to the same extent as the fighter, and they have their spellcasting/other power abilities to draw upon to supplement it. Any situation where a fighter would shine due to a wearing down of party reasources, a summoner or druid would likely shine even more.

Fourth, like was mentioned, even the fighter and the rogue have hp to worry about. This approach futher strains the 'must have a dedicated healer' issue that can cause someone to have to continuously take a backseat because he has to save his resources to put the rogue and fighter back together.

It is too focuse on spells, when spells alone are not the problem. The problem is the fighter, rogue and monk dont have significant supernatural abilties, where as everyone else does (or at least have access to them). The problem is the limited toolbox of the martial characters vs that of other classes. This doesnt address that, and in many ways it will make it worse because those characters will have less support from the casters (in the form of buffs, or just in the form of additional power in an encounter).

The rogue could shine when the wizard summons a bunch of monsters for him to flank with and then hastes him, and the fighter whill shine when the cleric gives him airwalk to chase down the harpy. But with less of those resources available, the casters are more likely to focus on other things, leaving the fighter out of the harpy fight, and the rogue struggling to get into flanking position more then once or twice per combat.

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

Another issue with 8 APL-2 encounters is playing time. My group meets for 3-4 hours once a week, even though 8 easier encounters would take less time than 8 average or challenging encounters, it would take at least as much time as four encounters in the current setup.

[Hugo Rune]

The standard model is based on having the equivalent of 4 APL encounters. What I'm suggesting is making that the equivalent of at least 5 APL encounters - if the party goes through all of them.

A standard setup might be
Boss APL+2
Std encounter APL
Easy encounter APL-1
Easy encounter APL-1

With this model the limited resources can be spent fairly safely and the whole adventure/adventure stage wrapped up

With the model I'm proposing it would be more like
Boss APL+2 as before, maybe even APL+3 or +4 as I'll describe later
Hard encounter APL+1
V.easy encounter APL-2
V.easy encounter APL-2
Trivial encounter APL-3
Trivial encounter APL-3
Trivial encounter APL-3
Trivial encounter APL-3

Taking out the boss should be nigh-on impossible unless the party are prepared but should be achievable if the party are prepared and have planned for it.

The hard encounter is one to avoid. The party cannot expect to succeed taking out the boss if they engage in this fight as well. It is also one that will press the party hard if they've been wasteful on their limited resources dealing with the minor encounters.

All of the v.easy and trivial encounters should be doable without much risk to the party. The tricky part is doing so in a manner that doesn't bring the party to the attention of either the boss or the hard encounter before the party are ready. E.g. a trivial encounter could be a goblin guardpost for a lair of giants, except the goblins run away to get help as soon as they see a threat rather than fight and that APL-3 encounter could suddenly become an APL+1 or 2 encounter.

If the party are playing intelligently as a team they will first need to focus on reconnaisance without getting caught, or at least appearing as a serious threat. Once they have the reconnaisance they will be able to plan a strike mission on the boss. This may be two different sessions, one for reconnaisance and one to strike or at least require a mid-session interlude to plan the strike.

But the point is the classes that have a lot of unlimited use abilities aren't in the shadow of the limited use classes. Those that have good unlimited abilities and some limited use abilities should be largely unaffected as they don't need to rely on the limited use abilities to perform well.

[Degoon Squad]

I dont see casters as being all that powerful but then both our players and GM's tend to play wack-o- wizard as soon as an arcane caster is spotted..

[Dragonchess Player]

Generally speaking, the "caster vs. martial" differential is not that wide until you start hitting around 8th- or 9th-level. At that point, the casters start to have so many resources (spell slots, etc.) and options that they can (with sufficient preparation) consistently overshadow the martial characters. At earlier levels, the casters are much more limited; they can occasionally overshadow the martial characters, but not all the time.

If you want more parity between classes, just keep the campaign at lower levels. Use the slow progression charts (or even slow progression with all experience and treasure halved) and "retire" characters when they reach whatever level you feel moves past the "sweet spot." In Pathfinder Society, for example, 12th level is the maximum progression (there are other restrictions in place as well).

Also, the "4 encounters per day" meme is a crock. Read Revisiting Encounter Design.