Magus and hand-and-a-half weapons


Advice


Hi!

I'm considering translating an old Forgotten Realms character to Pathfinder. He always used a bastardsword, since he was a follower of Kelemvor. [The old 3.0 build was ranger (favourite enemy undead of course) 1 / paladin 7. Since the old incarnation actually found an intelligent sword, it seemed cool to go Bladebound Magus this time around instead of paladin. The ranger level might become Inquisitor - similar skills. Not sure yet on that account.]

Now, I understand that a Magus requires a one-handed weapon to do their thing, and they require a hand free as well. Bastard swords (and dwarven axes) are clearly onehanded, even if some people need to use them twohanded. But would you be able to use them twohanded (for the extra strength/power attack bonus) and then lift one hand off as a free action to make use of your Magus abilities? And would this change if you don't have the exotic weapon proficiency feat? [This would not be an issue for me, but it's good to understand the nuances of the rules.]


If you are talking about spell combat, no. Spell combat is a single action, not part of several actions. You must meet the criteria for spell combat throughout the action. Thus you have to have a hand free for the whole attack and the casting of the spell.

If you dont have exotice weapon proficiency you cant use a bastard sword with spell combat at all since you cant weild it one handed.


Thanks - that was my guess. Better to ask around and make sure, of course.

Would a Strength-based magus with a onehanded-used bastard sword that does *not* use the "my scimitar plus 10d6 from my 1st level spell cheese" trick still be sufficiently capable? I am not at all eager to use flashy elemental stuff - it's entirely out of character. Buff spells, divinations, even some transportation spells are all good, and some channeled effects are fine - but no arcs of elemental magic or erupting fireballs, please. That weapon is supposed to be the source of damage.

The Bladebound Magus seems a good thematic fit [and the Michael Moorcock origins have a lot of feelgood factor for me], but it starts to look like it's mostly a cosmetic fit, not so much a mechanical one. Perhaps I should reconsider paladin or inquisitor?


Well the problem is if the weapon is the source of the damage you are ignoring a principle ability of the class, spell strike. I think you are probably looking for a divine caster more then an arcane one.

Dark Archive

A Bastard Sword's 1d10 19-20/x2 crit range is not really so much worse than a Scimitar's 1d6 18-20/x2 for a Magus. It's not the most optimal option, but it's far from "ignoring a principle ability of the class."

That'd be like saying that a Fighter who decides he wants to use Greataxes instead of Greatswords or Falchions is ignoring a principle ability of the class.


Look up the Kensai Magus, might be worth looking into.


Darnell wrote:
Look up the Kensai Magus, might be worth looking into.

Not a bad idea, although a Kensai gives the impression it's a reskinned monk. We're talking old school Forgotten Realms here - there is no oriental content unless you're in the far eastern countries, and even there it is rare. Besides, he'd be mistaken for a wizard without armour.

All in all, a divine caster may be the way to go. I can still name the sword, even if it doesn't talk back :)


Seranov wrote:

A Bastard Sword's 1d10 19-20/x2 crit range is not really so much worse than a Scimitar's 1d6 18-20/x2 for a Magus. It's not the most optimal option, but it's far from "ignoring a principle ability of the class."

That'd be like saying that a Fighter who decides he wants to use Greataxes instead of Greatswords or Falchions is ignoring a principle ability of the class.

Actually I meant that he would be using the weapon with buff spells, instead of channeling 'flashy' spells through the weapon. My magus uses a longsword, I dont think scimitars are key to the class. But I DO think spellstrike is key to the class, and if you are not going to use it, it may be wise to look elsewhere unless you have a really good reason to go magus.

Dark Archive

Kolokotroni wrote:
Seranov wrote:

A Bastard Sword's 1d10 19-20/x2 crit range is not really so much worse than a Scimitar's 1d6 18-20/x2 for a Magus. It's not the most optimal option, but it's far from "ignoring a principle ability of the class."

That'd be like saying that a Fighter who decides he wants to use Greataxes instead of Greatswords or Falchions is ignoring a principle ability of the class.

Actually I meant that he would be using the weapon with buff spells, instead of channeling 'flashy' spells through the weapon. My magus uses a longsword, I dont think scimitars are key to the class. But I DO think spellstrike is key to the class, and if you are not going to use it, it may be wise to look elsewhere unless you have a really good reason to go magus.

Ah, right. Gotcha. I totally agree with you on that front. Magi are absolutely all about elementally-empowered sword strikes and such.


Yup. Looks like the Magus is a cool class, just not a good fit for this old character. No worries - I'll get things to work out. The numbers aren't all that important at the end of the day.

How viable are channeling-through-a-weapon paladins? Or would a straight-up Smite work better? I would like to preserve the idea of him being more effective against undead, without going ranger all the way - and the paladin's Bonded Weapon is an appealing translation of that old intelligent blade. He used to be a paladin, of course, but the current rules implementation actually allows for a sword with personality of sorts. The class has improved by leaps and bounds since the old days.

PS. It amuses me that the best translation of my old paladin may well be paladin, but for mechanical reasons and not thematic ones. That's sufficiently atypical for me that it stood out.


I'd consider going paladin with oath against undeath archetype, if your GM does not mind a bit of refluffing with a PrC then Knight of Nozem is a good choice instead of ranger. (paths of prestige)

Scarab Sages

Makarion wrote:
Besides, he'd be mistaken for a wizard without armour.

A magus would be indistinguishable from a wizard outside of combat. Even a true wizard using arcane sight would be hard pressed to distinguish between an unarmored magus and wizard. (We won't even go there with wizards that can wear armor.)


I think you can go with a less-elemental-spell-strike-spam approach,
and certainly you don't need the scimitar-crit-op approach to make that work any way,
but if you go that way it probably is a good idea to not "BAR" that route completely to yourself,
allow the occasional use of such spells when you really need that nova,
but otherwise if you go for more buff/debuff/utility i think it's viable,
after all you are getting the benefit of those spells which 'spellstrikespam' maguses wouldn't.


I am fairly certain you could spellstrike your sword and wield it two handed. On the other hand, to do so with spell combat is a no. The exotic proficiency would of course allow you to spell combat with the bastard sword one-handed since that is what the proficiency allows.


Do you think that a flat swap to a divine spell list would work? The cleric list, for instance, has the heal/harm spells that would work (against the living or undead - alignment restrictions apply of course), as well as searing light and a few others. There's no applicable orisons, but that's not that big a deal. [The Inquisitor has a damaging orison but not enough offensive spells at other levels.]

It's probably overall a weaker list for such a class, so you could ease up on the spell failure in armour, I guess.


Heretek wrote:
I am fairly certain you could spellstrike your sword and wield it two handed. On the other hand, to do so with spell combat is a no. The exotic proficiency would of course allow you to spell combat with the bastard sword one-handed since that is what the proficiency allows.

yeah, you can do it as separate actions, casting the spell one round (or quickened), holding the charge, and then doing a non-spell combat spell strike with the weapon 2-handed. even for scimitar magus' it's beneficial to switch to 2-handed grip like that (if they have 14+ STR to benefit from 1.5 STR bonus for 2hand-wielded weapons) in situations where they wouldn't/couldn't otherwise use spellcombat anyways (e.g. they need to move anyways).


You can use a Magus that doesn't optimize it's spellstrike use and you can certainly use spellcombat to buff yourself (not Enlarge Person though).

A flat swap to divine spells would actually best be with with an inquisitor spell list. A cleric/druid/oracle spell lists go up to 9 while an Inquisitor's max spell level is 6 just like a Magus.


It may be best to just talk to your GM and say 'This is the type of character I would like to play and this is a solution. Is there anything else you would like to change so as to help make this work?' If he is a reasonable GM he more than likely will work with you to make a character you find fun that wont be over powered. Be sure to go to him with some solutions though, like your switching out for divine spells.


Also, while I admit I didn't look too deep into it, I am fairly sure you can stack the Kensai and Bladebound archetypes. In the APG it says you can stack them as long as they don't have conflicting levels and I believe they do not.


Darnell wrote:
Also, while I admit I didn't look too deep into it, I am fairly sure you can stack the Kensai and Bladebound archetypes. In the APG it says you can stack them as long as they don't have conflicting levels and I believe they do not.

Correct, you can play as a Bladebound Kensai Magus.


Heretek wrote:
Darnell wrote:
Also, while I admit I didn't look too deep into it, I am fairly sure you can stack the Kensai and Bladebound archetypes. In the APG it says you can stack them as long as they don't have conflicting levels and I believe they do not.
Correct, you can play as a Bladebound Kensai Magus.

You can from the looks of it, but the character has always been armoured. Remember, he was a paladin back in the day! I'm much more interested in a functional than an optimal translation :).


Makarion wrote:
Heretek wrote:
Darnell wrote:
Also, while I admit I didn't look too deep into it, I am fairly sure you can stack the Kensai and Bladebound archetypes. In the APG it says you can stack them as long as they don't have conflicting levels and I believe they do not.
Correct, you can play as a Bladebound Kensai Magus.
You can from the looks of it, but the character has always been armoured. Remember, he was a paladin back in the day! I'm much more interested in a functional than an optimal translation :).

Mmkay.

Shadow Lodge

I've been playing a bladebound bastard sword swingin' in ROTRL. I have split my spells between buff and damage. Shield is nice for the bbeg fights, and there are plenty of more suttle damage spells. Maybe look into words of power from UM. UC has some interesting archtypes other than the kensai you should look into as well, and arcana to use.

Shadow Lodge

I am curently playing a bladebound, kensi hexcrafter magi, that's the most archtypes I've ever played, it's working out awesome

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