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Ok. So I read a bunch of threads on the topic of HiPS and still have a few questions remaining. I will start with what I understand.
#1 HiPS works to allow a Stealth Roll whether moving or not within 10' of a shadow (you don't actually have to do a move action to activate it). However, there is no RAW saying it is a free action, so it takes some sort of move action by RAW to engage. As a Su it does not provoke an AoO, and takes a standard action. Alternately you can draw a weapon or some such that counts as a move action and use Stealth, again not provoking an AoO.
#2 You cannot hide in your own shadow.
#3 You cannot use Stealth while attacking.
#4 Your first attack from Stealth counts as a sneak attack. Subsequent attacks that round don't (if already engaged in combat, if not, you only get one attack in the surprise round anyway). The persons being attacked are denied their dex bonus (but not due to flat-footing) due to the sneak attack.
OK. Well, I hope that is all correct enough. On I go with my theory on why more than one Shadowdancer would be dangerous...
#1 - You can use HiPS in every round after a single attack action. Thus allowing a sneak attack, and a re-roll of stealth.
#2 - While you cannot hide in your own shadow, you could hide in a friends. Additionally, if you summon a shadow, and are within 10 feet of it, you can use it to HiPS. The real question is: If I hide in my friends, and he hides in mine, is this "legal", each not hiding in their own. And is a summoned shadow technically YOUR shadow too?
#3 - You go unhidden when you attack, take a move action, re-roll HiPS. The defense against this is a HOLD ACTION or DELAY ACTION to hit the Shadowdancer ask they strike, right? So while you get a sneak attack in, they get a full round attack rotation on you, if they are smart, right? This solves the problem of having Shadowdancers continually get away with this strategy. (GM Opinion there).
#4 OK. You get a sneak attack, like I said, if they delay/hold they get a full round of bashing on you. Seems like a bad trade? Depends on the sneak attack I suppose (say you keep reducing their strength by 2 every time or bleeding them, waiting for them to do a heal, then striking while they don't have a hold/delay).
I guess the only real issue I have with this Su is the whole "how much other shadows" it takes. Is one friend's shadow enought to hide in? Can two hide in each other's shadows? Three? More? The additional question is this: If I didn't take a "real" move action, and was apparently observed, does that make the target square known to my enemy?
You make a couple of wrong assumptions i'll try to address
First, moving isnt what allows a stealth roll. Its taking a move action or as part of a move action. You cant stealth taking a 5 foot step or charging or while ding spring attack. As none of these are move actions.
In regards to #4, the act of not being seen is what gives the sneak attack. the moment you take your attack your no longer hidden. Sneak attack itself does not grant the ability to sneak attack. I am clarifying as your post seemed to suggest this.
The only way to attack and hide immediately is via the Sniping rules.
In regards to the dual Shadwdancer bit
In regards to #1, I dont think HiPS changes the rules about attacing and hiding in the same round. This falls under sniping.
#2 Really dont know the answer to this.
#3 Some answer to this is see #1, but the answer would be a Readied action not a hold. The victim would also get AOO as you moved about. (you cannot HiPS and spring attack as i stated earlier)
One thing you need to realize is in any given area there should be more than enough shadows to qualify for HiPS you dont need silly games to jusitfy it. shadows are /everywhere/ in rl and especially in the places fantasy adventures take place.
If you ready an action you can attack when they first attack you but you can only ready a standard action so no full attack.
If you delay your turn you can't act until AFTER they have finished their turn so they would again be stealthed before you could attack.
If you ready an action you can attack when they first attack you but you can only ready a standard action so no full attack.
If you delay your turn you can't act until AFTER they have finished their turn so they would again be stealthed before you could attack.
+1
You make a couple of wrong assumptions i'll try to address
First, moving isnt what allows a stealth roll. Its taking a move action or as part of a move action. You cant stealth taking a 5 foot step or charging or while ding spring attack. As none of these are move actions.
This is a common statement, but not accurate. The only time Stealth is associated with a Move Action is during Sniping. Otherwise in the Action description it states that Stealth usually takes NO ACTION. It goes on to say that the Stealth cheack is NORMALLY made as part of a movement (which is itself an undefined action not specifically a Move Action) and requires no seperate action. The reason it mentions making the stealth check as part of some other movement is probably due to the fact that most times a character has to move into concealment or behind cover to get into possition for a good stealth check. But if you are already in possition there is no reason you can't make the stealth check on it's own with no additional movement. The rule, in fact, is that it requires no specific action. So you could take a five foot step and roll stealth, or you could stand right where you are and roll for stealth. In fact, if you are invisible and NOT MOVING you get a +40 on your stealth check.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
The only way to attack and hide immediately is via the Sniping rules... In regards to #1, I dont think HiPS changes the rules about attacing and hiding in the same round. This falls under sniping.
There are no rules preventing attacking and hiding in the same round. What normally prevents you from hiding after you have attacked a target is the target becoming fully aware of you, "observing you," however, with HiPS you are able to do something that normal Stealth doesn't allow, hide while being observed. There is no reason someone with HiPS cannot come out of stealth with an attack, then five foot step away into Stealth. Sure the opponent might figure which square you are in, but it's still a 50% miss chance.
Sniping is for something very specific and it has nothing to do with hiding again after you have attacked. Sniping is to avoid detection all together througout your attack, which is something even HiPS cannot grant.
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Notice the use of the word maintain. You aren't popping into plain view, attacking, then fading back into shadow. You are in fact attacking without ever breaking Stealth. You are never seen at all, and that is the point of Sniping.
(you cannot HiPS and spring attack as i stated earlier)
Why not? The only question with Spring Attack and HiPS is not whether you can use Stealth, it's whether you can use it twice. If Stealth is not tied to a Move Action but rather to no action at all, normally as part of movement then there is no problem using it with Spring Attack. Spring Attack breaks your move action into two distinct movements; one to close distance and one to create distance. So you use Stealth as you move in, attack, then use Stealth again as you move out. The enemy gets no AoO due to Spring Attack. They could hold an action to attack you as you become visible but that is all.
One thing you need to realize is in any given area there should be more than enough shadows to qualify for HiPS you dont need silly games to jusitfy it. shadows are /everywhere/ in rl and especially in the places fantasy adventures take place.
This is somewhat true but remember, the ammount of shadow needed IS in fact broken out in the rules. You need an area of at least dim light. Dim light is defined in the additional rules section of the CRB under Vision and Light.
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
#1 HiPS works to allow a Stealth Roll whether moving or not within 10' of a shadow (you don't actually have to do a move action to activate it). However, there is no RAW saying it is a free action, so it takes some sort of move action by RAW to engage. As a Su it does not provoke an AoO, and takes a standard action. Alternately you can draw a weapon or some such that counts as a move action and use Stealth, again not provoking an AoO.
HiPS allows Stealth in situations normally not permitted. Stealth is not associated with any particular action, not even Move Actions unless specifically Sniping. So yes, you can use Stealth without moving, or as part of any movement of any kind.
HiPS doesn't say within 10' of a shadow, it says within 10' of an area of dim light. I don't think your friend's shadow would count as an area of dim light if the prevailing light category was bright light, or even normal light. IMO this was a copy/paste error from D&D 3.5 the same as the assassin's HiPS description is.
It is a (Su) so it doesn't provoke AoOs, in that you are right. However, you are wrong about it requiring a standard action to activate. The description of (Su) states that it usually takes a Standard Action unless the ability description states otherwise. In the case of HiPS it does. HiPS is not a specific ability to be activated seperate of Stealth. HiPS is an ability that simply allows you to use Stealth in unusual circumstances. You are not activating HiPS, you are activating Stealth... which requires no action at all, but is usually used as part of some other movement.
#2 You cannot hide in your own shadow.
Like I said, I believe this to be a copy/paste error from D&D 3.5 as the rules clearly state in the sentence prior that you need an area of dim light.
#3 You cannot use Stealth while attacking.
Correct, which is why you become plainly visible and observed as you attack. Much the same way as you would come out of invisibility as you attack.
#4 Your first attack from Stealth counts as a sneak attack. Subsequent attacks that round don't (if already engaged in combat, if not, you only get one attack in the surprise round anyway). The persons being attacked are denied their dex bonus (but not due to flat-footing) due to the sneak attack.
Your first attack from a successful Stealth always counts as Sneak Attack due to having Stealth and your opponent not being able to react in time; it isn't blatantly spelled out in RAW but old D&D 3.5 FAQ has addressed it, you are treated as if attacking from invisibility and get SA in the same manner. If you are in a surprise round that attack would count as SA regardless of the success of your Stelath due to flat footed contition. Additionally if your turn is before your opponent has been able to act in the first round of combat, that opponent is flat footed to all your attacks, so they are all SA regardless of the success of your Stealth.
#1 - You can use HiPS in every round after a single attack action. Thus allowing a sneak attack, and a re-roll of stealth.
Yes.
#2 - While you cannot hide in your own shadow, you could hide in a friends. Additionally, if you summon a shadow, and are within 10 feet of it, you can use it to HiPS. The real question is: If I hide in my friends, and he hides in mine, is this "legal", each not hiding in their own. And is a summoned shadow technically YOUR shadow too?
Again, I think this is an error in PF. You need an area of dim light. However, you can create dim light in a number of ways if none exists in your immediate area. You will be able to cast darkness with some of your other Shadowdancer abilities, also you could use scrolls or wands to control the light level as needed. Remember, at night, in an unlight room with blackout drapes, or in a dungeon or prison chances are you are already in plenty of dim light or darkness.
#3 - You go unhidden when you attack, take a move action, re-roll HiPS. The defense against this is a HOLD ACTION or DELAY ACTION to hit the Shadowdancer ask they strike, right? So while you get a sneak attack in, they get a full round attack rotation on you, if they are smart, right? This solves the problem of having Shadowdancers continually get away with this strategy. (GM Opinion there).
Kerbouchard addressed this, the most they could get is a single attack. If an opponent starts doing this and it's hurting you just remember you can always attack with ranged weapons and still get the SA damage. Also you could get into Stealth and use potions, take a few turns out of sight to regroup and prepare for the next assault. Additionally there are things you can do to make their one attack far less dangerous, draining strength, using poisons, if you are IN dim light and they don't have any special vision you get a 20% miss chance even when in plain sight, and there are other things you could do also. It's all about being cleaver and tactical, knowing how your enemy could hurt you and preparing ways to counter it.
#4 OK. You get a sneak attack, like I said, if they delay/hold they get a full round of bashing on you. Seems like a bad trade? Depends on the sneak attack I suppose (say you keep reducing their strength by 2 every time or bleeding them, waiting for them to do a heal, then striking while they don't have a hold/delay).
This was already addressed quite a bit, but there are several things you can do to cancel out full attack opportunities. Staggering your opponent is one I like, or blinding them. Having concealment or some other form of miss chance protecting you is always helpful too. And don't forget, if they full attack you, they can't move away, so if you and your shadow are flanking them you both get full attacks on him... probably worse for him in the long run as long as you can survive a few good shots.
I guess the only real issue I have with this Su is the whole "how much other shadows" it takes. Is one friend's shadow enought to hide in? Can two hide in each other's shadows? Three? More? The additional question is this: If I didn't take a "real" move action, and was apparently observed, does that make the target square known to my enemy?
I hope I've answered these questions with what I wrote above. The only way you would be observed is if your opponent rolls higher on his Perception than you do on Stealth or if someone takes away the dim light, with a daylight spell for instance. In those cases you are in plain view and subject to normal targeting and attack.
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Shadowlord, first thanks for actually addressing my question. Now I have another question though: "You need an area of dim light." - HOW BIG of an area? A Single square? Ten? A whole room?
"She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow" is still in PF. So are the same "hide in someone else's shadow" = "an area of dim light" concerns valid?
One would presume that any person whom casts a shadow casts a shadow in their entire square, correct? Thus giving 1 square per person of "dim light" shadows... Unless it is high noon and the GM decides to blah blah blah... So the question remains; can you hide in someone else's shadow/ is that enough "area of dim light"? And if so, can they hide in yours while you hide in theirs with this ability? Or do hiding people not cast shadows/dim light areas?
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And as a metagamer, I will stretch this whole "dim light" area one further, just for the heck of being "annoying". Let me ask first; do I, as the Shadowdancer have to see the dim light? Say I am standing 5 foot from the side of a building with dim lighting inside, can I use my ability "through the wall" as it were (nothing in RAW dis-allows this). Seems like it would be valid IF the dim light started within 10 feet (the other side of the wall). So NOW, as the metagamer, can I argue that just below the ground is dim or dark? Thus, so long as I am within 5 feet of the ground I can use this ability ANYWHERE, even on the brightest of days... this was just added as a point of ridiculousness, as we were discussing if HiPS would work in the dark or not (where only a stealth roll is needed due to partial cover). RAW it does not work in the dark (or complete darkness) unless there is dim light within 10 feet. From a purely "how light works" point of view, metagaming, areas of dim light are just under the surface of anything that is lit.
Shadowlord, first thanks for actually addressing my question.
You're welcome.
Now I have another question though: "You need an area of dim light." - HOW BIG of an area? A Single square? Ten? A whole room?
The rule simply says an area of dim light; it is an undefined measurement and in this case it will really come down to what your DM will allow. My personal opinion, it should be an area big enough that the creature trying to hide could fit inside... in the case of a madium humanoid, about one 5' square give or take a foot or two. In my games that is probably how I would rule, but that is just my own opinion, the measurement is not specifically given.
"She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow" is still in PF. So are the same "hide in someone else's shadow" = "an area of dim light" concerns valid?
When PF first came out it coppied a lot of stuff over from it's roots, D&D 3.5, and among those were the classes and some descriptions. Now, the assassin and shadowdancer both have exactly the same ability with HiPS and in 3.5 it read exactly the same IIRC. However, in PF they are vastly different, except the very last portion. This is because when they were coppied over, the assassin's was coppied exactly from 3.5 and the shadowdancer's was reworded to reflect PF's lighting and vision descriptions.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): At 8th level, an assassin can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Now, the designers have said that the discrepancy was accidental, an error of copy/paste and that the "some sort of shadow" description in the assassin's line should also ready "area of dim light" but it was coppied straight from 3.5 and has the old wording. That old 3.5 description is where the section about not being able to hide in your own shadow comes from, and I think it's a simple copy/paste error that it still remains in the Shadowdancer's description.
However, since you are pressing me, my answer is this. I am not 100% sure why it's in there, or how to justify it with the rest of the description. In my game, if you are in an area of bright or normal light, someone's shadow would not constitute an area of dim light. Not because it's not a shadow, but rather because a person's shadow does not cause the effects listed under dim light in the light and vision description. It is simply not dark enough to drop the light level in that small area down to dim light. Dim light is well defined and I just don't think a medium shadow constitutes dim light.
One would presume that any person whom casts a shadow casts a shadow in their entire square, correct? Thus giving 1 square per person of "dim light" shadows... Unless it is high noon and the GM decides to blah blah blah... So the question remains; can you hide in someone else's shadow/ is that enough "area of dim light"? And if so, can they hide in yours while you hide in theirs with this ability? Or do hiding people not cast shadows/dim light areas?
I have very rarely cast a shadow that filled a 5' by 5' square. I have certainly never cast a shadow that causes the effects listed under the dim light conditions. Remember, dim light is well defined; I have never seen a person's shadow cause these effects.
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
My answer to your question is no, you can't hide in someone else's shadow because it isn't an area of dim light. Your DM may see things differently.
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sorry for double post... but the other part would be the discussion of what constitutes dim light - I think we can agree, first off, that "one square" is needed. So the question comes to whether a person provides dim light in their own shadow? I might discuss the friendly cover rules as an optional indication that one does in fact provide some sort of cover, but not enough to use stealth (right?). So the same might or might not be enough to use this Su, depending on interpretation. But a well lit area (square) would not become dim simply because someone was standing in it. I guess it would eventually be left up to the GM to determine if dim light were present, and mark it on the map somehow?
The wife (rogue partner #1) were considering an umbrella thrown on a square as an option... like the old "rubber tree" arguments of old (a rogue can carry one and place it down and then hide behind it).
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So now I design my new magic item towards a Shadowdancer class: Candle/Rod of concealment. A candle/rod which brings the light level one step towards dim light no matter the conditions. Bright light becomes normal, normal becomes dim, dim is unaffected, darkness becomes dim. 5' radius. Guess it wouldn't cost much to do it (darkness and light spells, perhaps permanency as well). Just makes sure the SD gets dim light in normal conditions when they would need it most days, but makes it so bright light is still basically unaffected (though I would prefer to counter this I guess, hmmm well... anyway).
And as a metagamer, I will stretch this whole "dim light" area one further, just for the heck of being "annoying". Let me ask first; do I, as the Shadowdancer have to see the dim light? Say I am standing 5 foot from the side of a building with dim lighting inside, can I use my ability "through the wall" as it were (nothing in RAW dis-allows this). Seems like it would be valid IF the dim light started within 10 feet (the other side of the wall).
Even though you aren't being wholely serious, I find this to be an interesting question. One I have never seen come up. I like building a little on the (Su) connection that a Shadowdancer has with shadows and darkness so I could be persuaded to say you don't have to have line of sight, perhaps you can just feel that there are shadows nearby that are deep enough for you to cloak yourself in. However, I would say that you MUST have line of effect. In case you aren't sure of the difference, LoS simply means: can you see it or does something block your view in some way; LoE means: there can't be anything solid between you and what you want to manipulate. In this case a wall would prevent LoE. However, maybe you find and break/open a window or door; if you are standing right outside that window or door and if the light you just exposed the room too didn't ruin the dim lighting inside, then you should be able to use HiPS... maybe, it would be very case by case. But IMO you would absolutely have to have LoE, LoS is probably less important.
So NOW, as the metagamer, can I argue that just below the ground is dim or dark? Thus, so long as I am within 5 feet of the ground I can use this ability ANYWHERE, even on the brightest of days... this was just added as a point of ridiculousness,
Glad to hear you are kidding here. If someone at my table came at me with this question I would tell him he was welcome to leave at any time. However, this does go back to my original statement that I feel you MUST have Line of Effect, and in this case the surface of the ground prevents your LoE to the presumed shadows beneath.
...as we were discussing if HiPS would work in the dark or not (where only a stealth roll is needed due to partial cover). RAW it does not work in the dark (or complete darkness) unless there is dim light within 10 feet. From a purely "how light works" point of view, metagaming, areas of dim light are just under the surface of anything that is lit.
This question has come up many times and you are right, by a strict reading of RAW, darkness doesn't qualify; you MUST have dim light. Unfortunately the designers have never answered on this topic, as far as I know. Personally I think it is an oversight made during the creation of PF. IMO it's stupid not to allow darkness as a qualifier, I have put several arguments supporting this in some of my older posts. But even if your DM doesn't allow HiPS to work in darkness it is an easy work around with the ability to make magic items that can cast low level lighting effects. If you have a party that doesn't have darkvision it will be taken care of by the torches they are carying. Also at later levels the Shadowdancer could use shadow evocation to cause light effects and create dim light, though that would be an utter waste of the ability.
I have never played with a DM that disqualified darkness as being suitable for HiPS use. And I probably wouldn't remain long in a group with a DM who did that. I just think it's stupid, but my argument is entirely based on RAI and my own logic as RAW does clearly state dim light as the qualifier. I tend to think it simply means the light can't be any brighter than dim light. One of my main argument points has been that if HiPS is useless in conditions of darkness, than both the assassin and shadowdancer classes are far less scary for the very races and situations you would think they would be most scary in: Drow Assassin or Shadowdancer in his home terrain, the PF version of Underdark (i forget what they call it). You would think that would be terrifiying right... well not so much if one of their cheif abilities doesn't even work. That's my opinion, that's how all my DMs have played it, and that is how I play it in my games. You must have [b]at least[b] dim light, emphasis mine. You or your DM may disagree.
Large enough to hide inside of? From 10 feet away?
I was simply making a reference of size, not implying the character with HiPS actually NEEDED to be inside. Rather that, volume wise, it would be enough to conceal him/her self in.
So now I design my new magic item towards a Shadowdancer class: Candle/Rod of concealment. A candle/rod which brings the light level one step towards dim light no matter the conditions. Bright light becomes normal, normal becomes dim, dim is unaffected, darkness becomes dim. 5' radius. Guess it wouldn't cost much to do it (darkness and light spells, perhaps permanency as well). Just makes sure the SD gets dim light in normal conditions when they would need it most days, but makes it so bright light is still basically unaffected (though I would prefer to counter this I guess, hmmm well... anyway).
Again, this depends on your DMs interpretation. Personally, I allow HiPS to work in darkness the same as dim light. Not everyone agrees and by strict RAW dim light is the only qualifier.
However, with a DM that doesn't allow darkness to qualify there are some interesting things you could do and that might actually add "character" to your "character"... give you a little RP hook to play with. The magic item could be anything; I like rings, amulets, or just a gem you keep in a satchel on your waist or in your cloak. It should be able to do three things: 1) Cast deeper darkness so you can go from bright light to dim light if you need to, 2) Cast darkness so you can go from normal to dim light, 3) cast dancing lights to take you from total darkness to several points of dim light. The fun thing about magic items is you can modify the way the spells work to a degree. Keep the same basic effects you want from the spells but see if you can make them look different, unique.
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The Dim Light vs. Darkness is and interesting quandry of oversight, I am glad you agree. In theory it would mean that a SD could use Stealth, but then be totally visible to anyone with Darkvision in dark conditions (which is like EVERYONE who lives in the dark), but in dim light he would not be visible even if standing in the open with no cover. Yeh, really makes no sense and I think I would have to go with RAI there myself GMing.
As for the size thing: I think that since areas are defined by squares, one square is a good requirement (because the RAW state there IS a requirement, even if it poorly defines it).
As for me and my metagaming: My brother has rolled his eyes many a time at me when I have done things like suggest that there is darkness under the ground. Your whole line of sight versus line of effect is "somewhat" fine with me. I would not require it, myself, as a GM, however. If you are within 10 feet of DIM LIGHT you can use it. There are no qualifiers on it. I would state (to myself) that under the ground there is no "area" for there to be light or darkness, thus no "area of dim light" (and refer back to a cat in a box).
Good chattin with you about this stuff. Another thread just opened up on all the Stealth issues with HiPS and I think it is pretty easy to clarify now :)
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It has also become obvious to me that there has to be some way that they can produce a DIM LIGHT condition (or darkness, but then people are blind basically anyway without darkvision, so who cares about HiPS) to become truly effective. And an umbrella, another person's shadow or a shade tree simply doesn't cut it.
My main question is answered: No, a SD cannot hide in another SD's shadow (or 10 feet from it). A condition of DIM LIGHT must be within 10 feet, in an area (defined for lack of better purposes as one map area or a 5x5 space). The "cannot hide in their own shadow" is leftover verbage from when it mentioned shadows (which would be everywhere light shined, thus the change in verbage to take this Su down a peg).
Torches vs. melee cancel it. Flaming bottles of oil can hit squares easily enough. Glitterdust paints the SD with Disney Style SPARKLES. Daylight, heck, even a normal LIGHT spell makes it useless to a certain range. You can Delay action to whack the SD if you want. Plenty of ways to counter it.
I posted this in your other HiPS thread as well. It also applies here. HiPS won't work in Darkness because it is not plain sight. You are already blocked from sight.
Darkvision will see through that. I see no reason for HiPS to negate Darkvision. The only way I can logically see to adjudicate HiPS is based on the vision of the observer.
Previous post:
Dim Light only exists where the observer observes it. For instance. 25' away from a torch is Dim Light to a human. But to an elf, it is still normal light.
There are no shadows (dim light) within an observer's darkvision.
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and
half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given
radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal
light, and dim light for such characters.Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can
see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet.
A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with
darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
If you don't apply it based on the observer, how could you run your game? You take away a huge tactical advantage of the elf and half-orc. If the encounter is elves vs. elves and the shadowdancer is an elf, do you still say he can hide at 25' from a torch?
The only logical way to adjudicate it is to base it on the observer. Type of vision matters just as much as other senses, such as tremorsense, that can be used to thwart the ability.
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Komoda - the torch itself indicates where dim light is. Elves have the benefit of increased range, but their sight does not change the torch. Darkvision doesn't affect the torch, a daylight spell in that same area does affect the lighting conditions. Perceptions do not change presence of illumination patterns by light sources.
Nothing is taken away from the elf or orc. If they can see the shadowdancer with a perception good for them. However, that Shadowdancer gets his HiPS just as a rogue gets HiPS in designated terrain regardless of observers.
@ Komoda
Light exists at a certain level whether you percieve it or not. A blind man can't see light but that doesn't mean the light ceases to exist, it only means his perception of it is changed. You give a soldier a pair of Night Vision Goggles and send him into the dark, he doesn't magically destroy the darkness. Darkness is still there, he simply has a means to alter his perception of it. Likewise you throw that same soldier into a bright room with his NVGs on and guess what, he will be blinded by the ammount of light he now percieves. Does it change the actual constant level of light in the room? No, he is just percieving it differently than with normal vision.
Likewise, two men walk into a room. One man sees a coatrack by the door, the other does not. The coatrack IS there, it is a fact, it is physically in the room whether you see it or not. The failure of one man to notice it does not unmake the existance of the coatrack.
Light and Vision are handled the same way in PF. Light levels are predetermined, solid tangible rules: Bright light, Normal light, Dim light, and Darkness. Each level has rules, each has specific perameters and they are written with NORMAL vision as the baseline for comparison. If you happen to have special vision... all that means is your perception of that same, unchanging, level of light is slightly different than someone elses. Even in the descriptions when an elf is near a torch the ruels don't say his vision extends the radius of light, they say HE can see twice as far with that ammount of light. Doesn't change the level of light, only changes what he can percieve with that level of light vs what a person with normal baseline vision can percieve.
@ Anyone thinking or arguing that Darkvision trumps HiPS:
Firstly, here is why Ranger HiPS would be utterly unaffected by Darkvision. Ranger HiPS has exactly ZERO to do with shadows and concealment. It has 100% to do with the Ranger's intimate knowledge of his Favored Terrains. When in his Favored Terrain he can use Camouflage and HiPS whether it is in bright light, normal light, dim light, or darkness and no amount of seeing through shadows will affect that in any way.
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Now there are several completely separate reasons why I think that Shadowdancer and Assassin HiPS would trump Darkvison. Let's examine the actual text defining Darkvision. A lot of people get hung up on that one sentence in the Vision and Light section of the rules; the part I have in bold:
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
But this isn't what Darkvision is, it is just a simple explanation of how Darkvision interacts with the normal, non-magical, ambient light conditions of the world. It does not take into account in any way, special cases or abilities; it is just how DV interacts with the light conditions. Now what I want to draw your attention to, and what most people tend to avoid or forget, is the text in the Glossary section of rules describing what DV actually is. Pay particular attention to the highlighted sections:
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
And now I want you to look back up to the first quote and pay particular attention to the first sentence: "Characters with darkvision can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas..." When we combine those parts we have some fluff, and we have some mechanics. The mechanics are what is important here, and they are:
1) DV allows you to see in dark areas (dim light, darkness) as well as you would normally see in lit areas (bright light, normal light). Which means that while shadows still exist in the radius of their vision, they see everything within that radius AS IF it were in fact normal light. And that is all it means. They don't have beams of light coming from their eyes melting away the shadows. The shadows are still there, they just don't affect the accuracy of Darkvision sight the way they affect basic and low-light vision sight. (This by the way is 100% the reason why you can't use Stealth within the radius of DV unless you have cover or invisibility. It has nothing to do with dissolving the shadows in that radius. It has to do with you being able to see as if you were in the normal lighting condition. Read the normal lighting condition, it says you may not use Stealth without cover or invisibility.)
2) Darkvision allows you to see with no light source at all. So there is no light and you can still see. You are not producing flames from your eyes that burn away shadows. If you wanted to explain it the way Night Vision Goggles work, that is fine, but it still has no actual affect on the mechanics. You are not producing any kind of visible light that would change the lighting conditions in the radius of your vision. The shadows are still there, it is still dim light or darkness, you are simply able to see regardless of that fact.
3) Lastly, darkvision does not allow you to see anything you could not otherwise see of which, magical effects would be the most common things in that category, but it's not exclusive. This is just saying you aren't gaining any type of magical vision; you are simply able to see in darkness as if you were in normal light.
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Now after breaking Darkvision down in that manner, why do I feel Shadowdancer and Assassin HiPS are both able to trump Darkvision? I would think it is fairly obvious where I am going with this but I will break that down as well:
1) Darkvision is (EX) and Shadowdancer/Assassin HiPS is (SU). I generally don't allow natural (EX) abilities that a number of PCs, NPCs, and Monsters are born with to outclass a hard earned (SU) ability that my players have spent a great deal of time and character resources achieving (unless it is specifically stated, as it is in the darkness spell for instance, but in the case of DV vs HiPS it is not). That would be a fairly stupid, dick-ish, and anti-PC thing to do IMO.
2) The description of Darkvision actually comes out and explicitly states that it is not magical and does not allow you to see through magical effects. HiPS (SU) is a magical effect, all Supernatural Abilities are:
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.
3) Darkvision eliminates a creature's ability to hide based on the concealment granted by the lighting conditions. However, Shadowdancer and Assassin HiPS allows them to use Stealth based on a whole different set of parameters. They are not using the concealment granted by the shadows. They are using the empowerment of a magical ability granted to them by mere proximity to shadows. As explicitly stated above, Darkvision does not eliminate the shadows in the area, it simply allows the creature to see as if in normal lighting conditions, which eliminates the effect of concealment only. Again, the Shadowdancer/Assassin is not using concealment to hide; he is using the presence of the shadows, which are still very much there.
4) Lastly, Darkvision only allows you to see normally in dark areas as if it were a lit area, but does not allow you to see anything you could not otherwise see, magical or not. So I pose this example: A creature with normal vision is looking at a Shadowdancer who is standing in normal light but is also within 10' of dim light. The Shadowdancer attempts Stealth and is successful, he disappears. No one argues that this isn't an acceptable use of the HiPS ability. It is exactly what the ability states the Shadowdancer may do. He can be standing in normal light (where generally he would need cover or invisibility to hide) and use Stealth as long as he is within 10' of dim light. So I ask you this, why do you say that the Shadowdancer can hide in broad daylight from the creature with normal or low-light vision, but can't hide in shadows from the creature with darkvision? Before you answer, think carefully about what I said about DV. It doesn't allow you to see anything you couldn’t normally see, and it only allows you to see as if you there were normal light conditions. (IE: If the guy with NORMAL vision can't see you in NORMAL LIGHT, then the guy with DARKVISION can't see you in DIM LIGHT/DARKNESS.)