Goblin Squad Member
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One of the most interesting potentials for PFO that have been averred to by the developer is the player-crafted dungeon.
It was made clear that dungeons need not be a tunnel in the ground but can include special or unique forest glens, fortresses, and similar. Basically it is any special area limited in size in which players can adventure together, particularly for PvE.
Further Ryan mentioned that possibly such dungeons might be offered on the GW store, and that GW would share any profits with the author. This game feature, if it came to pass, could result in players generating a modest income.
So since I am approaching retirement and my book should be finished this year I was thinking I'd really like to dedicate some time to building a few... but for now I really want to encourage GW to begin planning, if possible, for making this feature a reality as I think it offers great potential not only for prospective dungeon designers but also PvE enthusiasts.
So toward that end I'm creating this thread for some dungeon ideas, sketches of dungeons we would like to see whether we end up actually building them with a Unity-based tool using in-game objects and skins or just ones we would like to have someone build for us.
Mostly I'm venturing some design 'sketches' in hope that we can spark some interest for the eventual inclusion of such a wonderful feature as this could be.
Now, I'm fairly confident that the community will have commentary and insight to share aside from actual design sketches, and I want to encourage the understanding that you can respond to the thread with your thoughts as well as contribute to the designs if you so choose.
I'll use a leading tag, such as 'design: <title>' to distinguish any designs I submit for your review. I'll try and use an intelligible, common sense format structure for ones I submit to try and give it some structure.
As soon as I have a design ready for you I'll post it here. Please feel free to comment or contribute your own design ideas. It would also be pertinant to identify how you see these player-crafted dungeons being included in the game itself once purchased from the GW Store. For example my thought is that these dungeons, once purchased by a player, would spawn for that player and his party at variable spots that would persist for them until used, but would appear for no one else not in a party with him or her. I'm guessing they would be single-use, and would vanish once completed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the interest of consistency I have ordered an 'encounter' from the Paizo store in order to learn the format for such adventures. Once I have seen how these are supposed to be done I'll translate my design into the Paizo format, but it will take a few days for that adventure to arrive after it ships.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being,
Great idea, though being in the same Team Speak conversation when you kicked this around, I knew it was coming. :) I think this would add a wonderful dimension to the game and give new meaning to the idea that in PFO, the players are the content.
I wonder how the Dev team would handle the items that are found. You certainly wouldn't want someone farming magic items from such purchased instances, or would the price of the "dungeon" be prohibitive for such shenanigans?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the interest of consistency I have ordered an 'encounter' from the Paizo store in order to learn the format for such adventures. Once I have seen how these are supposed to be done I'll translate my design into the Paizo format, but it will take a few days for that adventure to arrive after it ships.
Being I saw a neverwinter nights module or yours, so I am expecting great things on a PFO dungeon. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm extremely hopeful that UGC (User Generated Content) will be a major component of PFO.
First, it frees up the devs to work on other things.
Secondly, it increase the amount and variety of PVE content for the player base.
Third, it allows us to continue to croudforge the game world, even after the official launch.
There is only one potential pit fall, and that is UGC dungeons that are designed to be exploitive grinds. IE... 10th level Quest vs. 1000 naked Goblins who have a treasure of 1 MILLLLIIIIIION gold peices.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What if, unless it's a special item unique to that dungeon storyline, the game server randomly assigned loot based on the same coding it normally uses for random encounters of that same level? When you launch the dungeon, the server checks the level of the dungeon adventure, and creates loot appropriately.
As for those special, unique items, I doubt they would allow them for purchase in a dungeon. However, it would be nifty if you, the owner of the newly purchased dungeon, could deposit special loot into the adventure. For instance, if you were planning to run this dungeon in conjunction with an on-going player-made storyline, if you could have found or made a very nice magic item and somehow inserted it into the dungeon for the adventurers to discover, that would be great fun for us plot managing types. Perhaps the key item of the dungeon story isn't included, but can be added by the dungeon purchaser. You initiate the dungeon, a cursor appears for you to select what you want to deposit as the key item, and by targeting it, it is placed in an appropriate spot in the dungeon.
Just ideas, but lots of possibilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I doubt this will happen Bludwolf. But it would need to be carefully monitored. Other games with UGC like STO and the new NWO (same company btw), will have limitations on just how much you can earn in "money" and loot. They use a random system and limit, that treats UGC the same as dev content. So players cant create false advantages by making a dungeon specifically to farm X, or to give themselves large amounts of money or instantly get X piece of gear.
So basically UGC would have control over layouts, story, scenario, difficulty, required party size, monster placement, boss mob type, hell maybe even boss mechanics (doubtful). But they would not be able to make short "I win button" dungeons, or control drop, gold, or resource rewards or quantities. This is just one way to do it though.
Other limitations could be things like you can only do each content once with a reward and for fun from there after. There could also be oneshots that are only meant for a friend or group of friends to do once. You could also make it where the DM is responsible for providing the reward (obviously this could get more expensive than comfortable if the DM isnt frugal).
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What if, unless it's a special item unique to that dungeon storyline, the game server randomly assigned loot based on the same coding it normally uses for random encounters of that same level? When you launch the dungeon, the server checks the level of the dungeon adventure, and creates loot appropriately.
Was just about to suggest this :) it's how NWO is handling the loot in their UGC tool called "The Foundry". You design everything and the game sever handles NPC and mob loot based on the level of the NPC or mob. Likewise (I think) you can place 1 large chest per module which the game adds loot based on the modules level, this chest has a set number of items and is intended to be the best loot of the scenario or module.
I would urge anyone interested in UGC to check out what info there is on NWOs Foundry. It's the next evolution of the module creator included in NWN 2. A few vids can be found on the foundry via YouTube can be seen Here
I've "heard" that the Foundry is pretty cool. It's pretty complex allowing for deep NPC programming in many ways, movement, conversation, appearance. The tools for creating the content are really in depth, you can do all sorts of cool stuff. The biggest downside IMO is that loot, as well as items that can be interacted with within the game world have these sparkles that make them really stand out. While this might not seem that important, if however your creating some object the player is supposed to "search" for, there is no way to remove the sparkles.
I've also "heard" that the game it's self is nothing to write home about. It's based on D&D 4e rules which after "hearing" about them I'm REALLY glad paizo didn't use them in PF and that GW isn't using them for PFO!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly they can create a very nice random dungeon generator and the amusement park part of PFO will have immense replayability. But I don't want the loot that drops to be crafting materials only.
A random dungeon generator that looks completely different every time would be great. Different maps, different coloring and atmosphere, different monsters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I'm paying a subscription I don't want to have to buy any content, player made or not. Subscription should get you everything save major expansions.
I cannot imagine a player having to buy optional content that might be made available on the GW Store. You don't want it don't buy it. I would have though that would be a 'given'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If a player-made dungeon is a single use item, and its contents spawn only once, then your 1000 Klingon instance should not be remotely possible.
If the primary treasure to be gained is a artifact with a very limited benefit then it should be the object, rather than its benefit, and more particularly the entertainment of the PvE encounter with friends than is meaningful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly they can create a very nice random dungeon generator and the amusement park part of PFO will have immense replayability. But I don't want the loot that drops to be crafting materials only.
A random dungeon generator that looks completely different every time would be great. Different maps, different coloring and atmosphere, different monsters.
I really like your idea, Soldack. It could meld very nicely with the escalation mechanic occasionally.
Say you had a 1:10 chance that a hex in escalation that also does not support a settlement might spawn a random PvE dungeon for players to discover.
It shouldn't be too hard to design a randomization routine for building these sometime after release when the devs have time to ensure the randomized geography actually fit together. Make one 'roll' for whether the dungeon is cave, forest, swamp, or fortification, and another to determine how many 'sub-areas' it should have, then use module area elements that fit together. For example a dungeon might be compoed of virtual cubes that fit together neatly such that a passageway in one cube meshes with the passageway in any adjascent cube. Each cube might have a random encounter table, and where the 'roll' specified 'no encounter' make a 'trap check'.
Any story device could similarly be generated randomly with the story parts determined by the exact building blocks used to make the environment, ending in one of many possible objective areas that would be larger and more carefully furnished.
Then finish by mechanically generating an appropriate population for that specific tileset.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the interest of consistency I have ordered an 'encounter' from the Paizo store in order to learn the format for such adventures. Once I have seen how these are supposed to be done I'll translate my design into the Paizo format, but it will take a few days for that adventure to arrive after it ships.Being I saw a neverwinter nights module or yours, so I am expecting great things on a PFO dungeon. :)
Oh I'm not planning on turning my old neverwinter nights module into a pathfinder module. I really would be accused of being 'Monty Haul' if I did ;).
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a mechanic I believe that user generated content (à la the Foundry of NWO) is probably the way game developers may finally be able to pump out enough new quality PvE content to keep PvE players satisfied. While developers are never able to develop enough content themselves, they may be able to develop tools needed by the players to do so.
My primary concern with user generated content in PFO, based on Ryan's comments on the matter, is the monetization.
As Rafkin, I am very uncomfortable with the idea of a subscription based game starting to "nickle and dime" content, whether created by developers or users. Everyone paying the subscription should have access to all the content. Nobody should be denied access to content based on their willingness to use the cash shop.
I hope that GW would see user generated content as means to both expand the customer base and increase the retention rate and not just as means to squeeze a few extra dollars per month out of a certain percantage the current subscribers. I also believe that the only way for GW to justify the development costs of such a feature would be to leverage it to the fullest, which they cannot do if they limit it to the users of the cash shop.
There are other ways to encourage players to create content for themselves and other players except cold hard cash:
* fame and glory
* possible game related benefits
* the pure joy of being able to create something to (hopefully) be a permanent part of PFO
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Goblin Squad Member
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Im all for doing stuff for the fun of it.
But I usually have a trifecta of things I expect with PvE content.
1. FUN - it always needs to be fun
2. Comradery - the joy of conquering a challenge with your bros(sistas)
3. Loot - doesnt have to be epic gear like wow raids, and doesnt have to be game breaking like millions of coins. Just some small reward. When I raid a goblin cave and kill the Goblin King I expect to get access to his treasures.
So limitations can and should be set, but give me some reward for my PvE effort please (even if its small). If done right, some in-game benefit could work as well, but loot is pretty straight forward and desired. I could care less about fame or glory (not sure how tangible that kind of benefit would be in game. I do PvE content for myself or my clan. There is nothing wrong with doing something for the fun of it, but for me that will wear thin and Id end up only doing the UGC that has the highest ratings or that people are talking about how awesome such n suchs dungeons are.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I'm paying a subscription I don't want to have to buy any content, player made or not. Subscription should get you everything save major expansions.I cannot imagine a player having to buy optional content that might be made available on the GW Store. You don't want it don't buy it. I would have though that would be a 'given'.
I realize I wouldn't "have" to buy it. I am saying that a subscriber should get any content as part of their subscription. As I said, with the exception of expansions/ major content updates.
If I pay $15 a month I shouldn't also have to pay $1.99 to run your dungeon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rafkin,
I would usually agree with your point of view. If I pay my subscription, I expect to get everything the company produced for the game. However, in this case, it's content that the company didn't make. You're not missing out anything that GW produced - gear, abilities, the right to control territory, etc. But this is something someone else made for the game. The cost is partly to compensate the player-designer who isn't on the GW payroll. Now, if you're suggesting players design such content for free, I think many would (given easy enough tools, I'd love to), but I wouldn't feel robbed if it went the other way.
Typically, if FTP games where you have to buy all the bells and whistles, I tend to do without. I'm not a bells and whistles kind of player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I'm paying a subscription I don't want to have to buy any content, player made or not. Subscription should get you everything save major expansions.I cannot imagine a player having to buy optional content that might be made available on the GW Store. You don't want it don't buy it. I would have though that would be a 'given'.I realize I wouldn't "have" to buy it. I am saying that a subscriber should get any content as part of their subscription. As I said, with the exception of expansions/ major content updates.
If I pay $15 a month I shouldn't also have to pay $1.99 to run your dungeon.
That isn't the case anymore, there are too many MMO's out there, and you need a steady few million active players to function purely on a $15/mo subscription. .
A subscription usually gets you all the character advancement perks, and some bonus points to spend in the cash shop.
Mission packs are a great seller.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would urge anyone interested in UGC to check out what info there is on NWOs Foundry. It's the next evolution of the module creator included in NWN 2. A few vids can be found on the foundry via YouTube can be seen Here
Very interesting. Definitely a great example for an approach for player-generated content.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I'm paying a subscription I don't want to have to buy any content, player made or not. Subscription should get you everything save major expansions.I cannot imagine a player having to buy optional content that might be made available on the GW Store. You don't want it don't buy it. I would have though that would be a 'given'.I realize I wouldn't "have" to buy it. I am saying that a subscriber should get any content as part of their subscription. As I said, with the exception of expansions/ major content updates.
If I pay $15 a month I shouldn't also have to pay $1.99 to run your dungeon.
That isn't the case anymore, there are too many MMO's out there, and you need a steady few million active players to function purely on a $15/mo subscription. .
A subscription usually gets you all the character advancement perks, and some bonus points to spend in the cash shop.
Mission packs are a great seller.
I'd guess something along the lines of a sub gets dev-created missions (seems far off however), but player-created (even further off) might exist in an app store sort of thing where everyone determines a price range and everyone decides to pay or not? Eg mods for skins on a smaller scale?
I'd assume the dev-created stuff if made would be sold at a higher premium as stand-alone outside of sub, that sort of thing. But the player-created content would be it's own pricing system under perhaps guidelines.
If I'm paying a subscription I don't want to have to buy any content, player made or not. Subscription should get you everything save major expansions.I cannot imagine a player having to buy optional content that might be made available on the GW Store. You don't want it don't buy it. I would have though that would be a 'given'.I realize I wouldn't "have" to buy it. I am saying that a subscriber should get any content as part of their subscription. As I said, with the exception of expansions/ major content updates.
If I pay $15 a month I shouldn't also have to pay $1.99 to run your dungeon.
That isn't the case anymore, there are too many MMO's out there, and you need a steady few million active players to function purely on a $15/mo subscription. .
A subscription usually gets you all the character advancement perks, and some bonus points to spend in the cash shop.
Mission packs are a great seller.
I'd guess something along the lines of a sub gets dev-created missions (seems far off however), but player-created (even further off) might exist in an app store sort of thing where everyone determines a price range and everyone decides to pay or not? Eg mods for skins on a smaller scale?
I'd assume the dev-created stuff if made would be sold at a higher premium as stand-alone outside of sub, that sort of thing. But the player-created content would be it's own pricing system under perhaps guidelines.
The way it's being handled with the Foundry is players can rate the UGC (modules) after they have played them. That way designers become known for creating good, fun content and players can know which modules other players like.
GW could add a similar system, it would really help sell good modules, and help players know which ones people liked before they buy them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As soon as I have a design ready for you I'll post it here. Please feel free to comment or contribute your own design ideas. It would also be pertinant to identify how you see these player-crafted dungeons being included in the game itself once purchased from the GW Store. For example my thought is that these dungeons, once purchased by a player, would spawn for that player and his party at variable spots that would persist for them until used, but would appear for no one else not in a party with him or her. I'm guessing they would be single-use, and would vanish once completed.
Back on topic, this all seems to be a solid anticipation of how it might work.
I wonder if they could be inserted as part of the "skill-training" Achievements system? That might be one closely-related area where this form of dungeoneering questing would work both in terms of RP and progression?
Most merit badges require that you first finish training a specific skill or skills. Some also require that you do something in-game, such as harvest a certain amount of resources, or slay a certain number of monsters, or explore a portion of the map. When you have completed the requirements, the merit badge is awarded, and you will likely also get a new ability associated with that merit badge.
Each crafter has a number of recipes unlocked by raising the correct skill, and may be able to acquire others by exploring and getting achievements.
In addition to an XP cost, each feat may also have prerequisites. This will always include lower-level versions of the feat (e.g., you can't buy Blacksmith 3 without Blacksmith 2), and will almost always include some kind of achievement/merit badge. This can include ability score requirements (see below). You can't buy the feat without the prerequisites, so even if you don't play your advancing character for a while and come back to a huge pile of XP, you'll have to go out and earn achievements that unlock the feats you want.
Not too sure what the difference between: Achievement, Merit Badge and Feat is to be perfectly honest?
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Goblin Squad Member
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None of the rewards for player made dungeons should be different from the intent of GW's "crafting drops only" loot table. That would make player crafted adventures imbalancing and many players would run those in order to get the better loot.
Plus, a nominal crafting item is still approproate loot for a goblin king's treasure...rare strips of leather, a few minor jewels, half dozen nuggets of rare ore, mayve a locked chest with a few starter items, some coin and a minor potion or three. That's enough.
Keep balance. The real reason to run them anyway is for the fun of it. Make the adventure tough but doable and you will get good reviews.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Hardin Steele. I dont think we disagree? I said I would like some sort of reward. Materials would be fine as long as I dont have to have a skill trained for viewing whats in a chest (save that for the open world). But needing to have a key or being able to lockpick would be fine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I understand the point about keeping the drops in line with what the drops are like outside the dungeon.
There is another hand, however. If I am crafting a story line there should be a climactic ending. The whole story line must be paced, the plot must escalate, and the conclusion should bring closure.
Now some story lines are completely independent of loot rewards, such as rescuing the princess to the adulation of her people for example. But other stories seem to want some form of tangible reward.
In TS chat last night Hobs pointed out that some of the best in-game stories are focused on unique items that provide no objective benefit in and of itself but are esteemed for being unique, and players may agree to RP that the item is of great value, even going to war over it.
I can see that, and maybe it will be enough. Does the community think it will be enough? If I built a story focusing on the recovery of a unique artifact that didn't really do anything or confer any advantage, do you think it would be desirable as a reward?
Or if the artifact bestowed a +1 wisdom attribute bonus, would that work better, assuming it would be acceptible to GW?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If it is a unique looking item (graphic, color, etc.), some players - mainly collectors - will covet it. That some players or settlements might place upon it some extra value, even if it's only role-played value, will make it valuable to others as well. I might think an old stick is worthless, but if my opponent thinks its a priceless relic, then it just became valuable to me. I could attempt to steal it and ransom it back to my opponent or his other opponents. For a real life comparison, to some nonChristians, the Shroud of Turin may be just an old piece of cloth, but many others would pay millions for its recovery if it were stolen. Such value could easily be placed upon a unique but mundane (i.e. nonmagical) item in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know that some of the Alpha players will be testing monsters, but I wonder how much it would cost to pay GW to be able to run a monster controlled subhex? I know that we can eventually build settlements and go to war but a non-AI controlled complex monster subhex? That would be fun.
When GW does create a tool for creating modules, they could just use their standard loot tables based on creatures power level, that would take care of general loot.
For the boss reward, if there won't be some special plot related item, the designer should have a checkbox to note that this creature is the (or a) boss. This should prompt the game to add to the loot increasing the chance for an item or better overall loot.
As far as an epic item goes, what about if you could create whatever sort of item you wanted, but once the module is over, the item vanishes when the players return to the game world?
Or they could assign a list of properties that the designer could then apply to an item to create an item that's important to the storyline? They could make the properties mainly for show, flashy things that wouldn't overpower the game worlds balance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having player generated content in PFO is a huge selling point for me. I think it would really add to the game in more ways than just additional PVE content.
Payment
I dont mind paying a small fee to get access to unique dungeons, as long as the dungeon is more than just a 10 minute romp through some low level goblins. Some could be priced and some could be free. However, if I am paying for it then I want to be able to access it more than once, whether to run through it again for fun or to take another character through it.
Loot
I agree with Greedalox that the dungeon should have some sort of reward. A big part of the fun for alot of people is wondering whats going to drop. Id be in favor of having the game engine determine loot as appropriate for CR, monster type, etc with one big loot chest at the end of the dungeon. And loot should be provided each time you run the module, not just the first time. Once per character possibly, but not one-time-only for the module. This could be balanced by having loot drops that are a tier lower than equivalent world dungeons to avoid farming PGC dungeons. It may also be appropriate to have someone at GW check the layouts to avoid cases where the 'Big Loot Box' is placed at the start of the dungeon for easy farms.
Unique Items
Unique items are fun to play with, but I dont think they should be obtainable in PGC as they would be too easy to get ahold of and thus lose the uniqueness of the item. If the item is only meant for use inside the dungeon as part of the dungeon's plot, then I think that would be fantastic (could be used to generate keys, puzzle components and other dungeon specific items). Persistent unique items (with or without an in-game benefit) should be limited to GW generated dungeons. Preferably at the end of an 'unbeatable' dungeon that requires a very high level of skill and teamwork to beat.
In short, im very much in favor of having player generated dungeons, but I think it would be a good idea to have them vetted by GW before putting them in the 'app store to avoid potential abuse.
Having player generated content in PFO is a huge selling point for me. I think it would really add to the game in more ways than just additional PVE content.
Payment
I dont mind paying a small fee to get access to unique dungeons, as long as the dungeon is more than just a 10 minute romp through some low level goblins. Some could be priced and some could be free. However, if I am paying for it then I want to be able to access it more than once, whether to run through it again for fun or to take another character through it.
...
The way that NWO is handling this is allowing players to replay modules they have purchased whenever they wish, But a player can only earn 4 hours worth of experience in UGC per day. So if you play 8 hours worth of UGC in a day, only your first 4 hours will give you experience.
Q: "What's to stop a designer from creating a small module with easily defeated mobs worth obscene amounts of experience?"
A: If I'm understanding the way that encounters/quest rewards are handled in UGC modules correctly, designers can't alter the experience a mob gives. I believe they can adjust the damage a mob does, but I'm pretty sure the Devs have built in some way to prevent this from being an exploit given the way they have structured the other experience generating methods within modules.
When the Devs do lay out how the PFO UGC tool works they may address these issues differently, but this details one method for handling them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I concur on the vetting by GW, absolutely.
The problem with repeatable dungeons is that I doubt GW wants to take people out of the world all that much. If there is a substantial loot chest at the end the dungeon system is too prone to be abused as a farm, people would run the dungeon over and over until they are catatonic over it, and while they are farming it they aren't in the world interacting with others.
My guess then is that such diversions would be exceptional activities that aren't going to be farmable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The experience issue is non-existent for PFO because there is no experience for killing mobs. As long as the mobs only drop appropriate gear for their difficulty, and that gear will need to be salvaged so it can be reforged, it's much harder to create a cakewalk that can be farmed.
The biggest problem I would see is including a dragon, giant, or other "rare" creature in the module that can then be farmed to earn materials for crafting rare equipment, making it more common.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Imbicatus,
Perhaps GW could provide a list of the mobs they feel comfortable allowing players to place in their dungeons and save the "special" ones for their own use. Or, you get the thrill of slaying the dragon, and if vetted and found challenging enough, the spoils appropriate from it's treasure, but not the unique mats off the dragon's corpse. I see you point, though - if dragon scales meant to be a very rare item, and everyone in your 100 member CC buys the dungeon with the dragon in it, you just allowed 100 different people to farm that rare commodity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would be surprised if rare creature types would be able to be placed in non-level appropriate dungeons, and even at level appropriate, there will likely be restrictions.
Much more likely that there will be some sort of random monster table that you'll be able to select sub-types but not specifics when designing a dungeon/module.
I'm psyched about this idea. I hope they include lots of little things that can be used to build terrific stories inside the modules. I've not tried NWO out, but I've played Star Trek Online (STO) and used its Foundry. There are a some really good modules and a lot of stinkers, but fortunately the good ones get voted on and are easy to find.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Think about an "test server" type option. Maybe a PCG button on the UI you could click to pull up a list of this month's PCG dungeon. I like PGC dungeons to be "test" dungeons in which players play through the the content with no loot rewards just to try out the content. At the end the players rate it. Each month the few highest rated PCG dungeons are taken by GW to be given a GW makeover and added to the game.
1) It would give players an out let to be creative.
2) No risk of anything server imbalancing happening - no loot just the fun of playing through and figuring out the puzzles and encounters.
3) Give players something fun and free to do if they would like to.
4) Give GW a supply of new content that the players have already rated as content they enjoy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Soldack,
It would be a nice gesture if the player creators were then compensated for their creations that won (paid play time, rewards, cash, etc.), though some might simply enjoy the fun of creating dungeons and the notoriety of being picked for game inclusion. At the same time, your suggestion avoids the problem of turning such player made content into a pay-to-use system. Nice suggestion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't mind player created dungeons at all, as long as they stick to the theme of PfO, use its treasure drop system, and isn't charged for in the micro-transaction store. A number of years back, I was part of the modding community for Medieval 2: Total War, being the historian for the acclaimed Broken Crescent Mod that dealt with the fractious Islamic groups during the first 3 Crusades and the Mongol Invasion (that period is my specialty as a trained and educated Historian). We made $0.00 off of the mod, because we did it for love of the game and the experience of adding to its depth.
I agree with Rafkin 100% - if I have given to both Kickstarter campaigns, and also have at least one paid monthly subscription (I may have 2 for added training purposes), I do not want to pay for player created additions. I have no problem paying for GW created major expansions (note the major part), but not minor ones done by either players or GW. I plan to donate more to PfO once we get to add more to our pledges. Perhaps a new perk GW can add is an option for a one time donation to ensure we get all minor additions? That I can also live with as a backer of PfO. I simply don't want to be micro-transactioned to death.
No disrespect is intended to anyone who decides to create user-created content, but I just can't see myself paying for them. As noted I come from a modding background. Hell, back in 1993 I added content to the AOL version of SSI's Neverwinter Nights graphical game, again for $0, just because I had the skill and wanted to make t a better game for myself and friends. I was lucky that they accepted my offerings (a lot of new humanoid monster art and actions, such as Goblin Worg riders, Orc and Goblin Archers and the like). If I should do any content for PfO, I don't want to be paid for it, nor do I want my fellow gamers charged for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with repeatable dungeons is that I doubt GW wants to take people out of the world all that much. If there is a substantial loot chest at the end the dungeon system is too prone to be abused as a farm, people would run the dungeon over and over until they are catatonic over it, and while they are farming it they aren't in the world interacting with others.
Fully agreed. This is the reason I do not believe "instance on demand" would be the best model for PFO to integrate player created content into the game.
The best solution (for the live game, Soldack's idea regarding the test server/similar functionality for development/vetting is simply brilliant) might be to integrate vetted player created dungeons into the "random event" tables alongside developer created events.
This way the content pool for random events would steadily increase over time and hopefully one day PFO could boast an impressive amount of PvE content.
I also agree with Hobs that it would seem to be in GW's best interest to reward players (by granting training time, titles, honorary mentions etc.) for creating quality content as they would reap the ultimate benefits.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fruben, I agree, and will take it one step further - given that PfO is a persistent game, where PC actions have meaning, any "instancing" isn't likely going to happen, or even be desired. Any user-created content will have to be, for good or ill, more one-shot types. This is another reason I don't want them sold in the micro-transaction shop. Once the first group goes through, they would no longer be of any use to anyone else as dungeons/lairs/places at least until new creatures move in, if they are able to do so. If the hex or sub-hex they are in becomes civilized, the chances for random creatures to move in are dropped drastically, making it just a sort of landmark.
From what Ryan has been blogging and posting, he and GW (and Paizo) want to see is a world that changes as a direct result of player interaction with both other players and the NPC/Environment. Having instanced anything goes against that stated goal. There will be no places players can farm, no permanent dungeons as most people think of them. There may be places that are power bases for PvE content, but they will likely change as more adventuring PC's head there and start clearing them out (GW could make a place that never gets fully cleaned out, but they will have to do so in a manner keeping with their own goals). Perhaps a "dungeon" that keeps growing, as new secret entrances are found, but the areas cleared by adventuring PC's will be slow to repopulate (sort of like how Hexes can go through cycles of monstrous build up). This would be as close to a persistent "dungeon" as I can see, and it will certainly only have loot within areas not yet explored and they would conform with GW's stated policy of having mostly craft/salvage material drops, with the possibility of a few coins and starter gear. This keeps everything within the sandbox design. Repeatable "dungeons" are too Theme-park in design, something Ryan is dead set against, and I fully agree with him.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So the Emerald Spire will only be a one shot deal for the first players to get through it and all that work by all those authors will ever after be no more than an empty tourist attraction for all the other players?
What is wrong with this picture?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being,
*insert tongue in cheek before proceeding*
But what if some motivated entrepreneur moves into the gutted Spire and sets up a really snappy attraction with flea market stalls selling miniature wax souvenirs of all the monsters that used to lurk there, and sugary, fat-laden foods that debuff your DEX score due to the brick-in-your-stomach feeling, and cheesy games of skill like pin the tail on the goblin? Wouldn't that be neat?
Only slightly more serious, as I read a few of the most recent posts in this thread, I wondered what possibilities might there be if a party wandered past an already cleaned out random dungeon. Could the miners dig up the existing wall and floor stones to cart home as materials for construction in their own settlements? Could home decorators run off with the usual torch brackets and even the occasional brazier or urn that you find in stereotypic alter rooms to sell them on the auction house to evil homeowners looking for just the right conversation piece? Might settlement bankers smuggle away the discarded, empty chests to fill with their own "loot"? Might all this befall our hapless little dungeon until it's reduced to a large hole in the ground, stripped clean like the remains of some PFO version of "Pickers" or "Storage Wars", until some enterprising realtor pawns it off on the next up-and-coming bandit troupe looking for a hideout.
Would almost make you feel sorry for the poor monsters that live in those dungeons.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
Only slightly more serious, as I read a few of the most recent posts in this thread, I wondered what possibilities might there be if a party wandered past an already cleaned out random dungeon. Could the miners dig up the existing wall and floor stones to cart home as materials for construction in their own settlements? Could home decorators run off with the usual torch brackets and even the occasional brazier or urn that you find in stereotypic alter rooms to sell them on the auction house to evil homeowners looking for just the right conversation piece? Might settlement bankers smuggle away the discarded, empty chests to fill with their own "loot"? Might all this befall our hapless little dungeon until it's reduced to a large hole in the ground, stripped clean like the remains of some PFO version of "Pickers" or "Storage Wars", until some enterprising realtor pawns it off on the next up-and-coming bandit troupe looking for a hideout.Would almost make you feel sorry for the poor monsters that live in those dungeons.
My hope is that they will be able to do so, and as the marble is stripped from the floor and the basement is excavated for ore a very extensive network of caverns is revealed, and out of which (at first gradually, but then rising to a crescendo) more monsters pour forth creating an epic opportunity to drive back those creatures and begin exploring the darkness of a deeper world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having instanced anything goes against that stated goal.
The impression I got from Ryan's post was that instancing was going to be present, but persistent instancing wouldnt.
To clarify, my understanding is that most 'dungeons' (PGC or otherwise) would be a unique instance that only the player's group could access. Once they finished that dungeon, the entrance would despawn and a new dungeon would spawn elsewhere. The difference is that you cant go to that exact same spot repeatedly and expect to find an entrance there. It will spawn randomly in the hex(es).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with repeatable dungeons is that I doubt GW wants to take people out of the world all that much. If there is a substantial loot chest at the end the dungeon system is too prone to be abused as a farm, people would run the dungeon over and over until they are catatonic over it, and while they are farming it they aren't in the world interacting with others.Fully agreed. This is the reason I do not believe "instance on demand" would be the best model for PFO to integrate player created content into the game.
The best solution (for the live game, Soldack's idea regarding the test server/similar functionality for development/vetting is simply brilliant) might be to integrate vetted player created dungeons into the "random event" tables alongside developer created events.
This way the content pool for random events would steadily increase over time and hopefully one day PFO could boast an impressive amount of PvE content.
I also agree with Hobs that it would seem to be in GW's best interest to reward players (by granting training time, titles, honorary mentions etc.) for creating quality content as they would reap the ultimate benefits.
This has loads of potential. Really like where this is going. :)
Or in the case of the SUPER dungeons such as Emerald Spire, the rate at which they are adventured in could be set to be wider ie instead of daily, according to different phases of the moon for or full moon by random comparison?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would not mind having player created dungeons,
but I agree in that the dungeons could be farmed if they stay there and just restock.
To counter that the dungeons could have a singleton flag,
meaning a player can only play through it once alone and or with friends.
And if it's setup so that if anyone in the party went through that dungeon no one can in that party can enter,
til the ones who did leave the party so that can't farm it or spoiler it for others so easily.
As for map making I would enjoy it if the map tool was easy to use and user-friendly.
Maybe having the entire dungeon layout based on modular parts for quick building, saving memory space, texture space, and a few other benefits.
Though the problem with that is its likely to result in similar looking dungeons, unless alternate texture could be used in the user made dungeon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I found with the neverwinter nights II aurora toolset that even though there were limited tilesets the fact that you could turn them 360 degress and intermix ppols of water, etc gave an extraordinary amount of variety, at least in my estimation. If I were doing a cavern-like area I could get quite a bit of milage just by using different floor plans, although their cavern walls would autogenerate to fill any gaps.
I suspect after all these years the Unity product must be pretty robust in terms of variety. Stalagtite columns could be built putting four wall tiles adjoining one solid tile, stuff like that.