I'm sort of seeing it this way. A group that wants to start a settlement must clear the hex of settlement related structures prior to building a settlement. So a wilderness settlement that a Druid (or a group of) takes up residence in becomes the same ie. a hex with a Druid grove/settlement located within it. I'm leaning toward these settlements being populated by not only Druids, but by Rangers and others that love nature, or abhor industrialized society. So there would be crafting facilities (no metalworking?) as well as housing etc...
But, this sort of settlement would be a grove in name only, or perhaps would have a actual grove attached to the settlement? Still totally up in the air with all these concepts and am just tossing ideas out there to see what may stick.
Sound good, bad, ugly?
I put that in there with a ? Because I wasn't sure about it. Imbicatus is right, even though Druids don't wear metal armor, they do need metal items. So a blacksmith/metal works would be needed.
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I'm thinking powerful, high reputation Druids may gain access to wood-shape/stone-shape variants allowing the shaping of living arbors and trees in a forest and caves in stone cliffs to make dwellings and other enclosures suitable to settlement-structure analogs, where dense stands of trees form walls and labyrinths that open on special areas for more public markets and places for visiting merchants to offer their wares.
A primary threat would surely be fire. To partly counter this threat the settlement or grove would grow in rings to form firebreaks.
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I'd say a settlement full of characters that can cast create water endlessly doesn't need to worry too much about fire.
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I'd say a settlement full of characters that can cast create water endlessly doesn't need to worry too much about fire.
<looks at beer> Maybe I am really a Druid after all...
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I think Groves = settlements just seems far-fetched to me. Ie they are neither a settlement, nor it's opposite, nor a sub-type of settlement?
The hide-out idea seems closer in scale and the secrecy thing also. But here's another suggestion, a druidic network of soul-binding groves? And any other function said groves might provide? Some teleporting even... some healing, anything else?
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Well a secretive grove for high level druids meetings and living area could exist, and would be only accessible by druids using 5th level spell Tree Stride and 6th level spell Transport via Plants. There would be certain transport trees in centre of grove, and scattered through out the wilderness for travel to and from the secret grove, and quicker travel in wilderness.
Stone hedges, menhirs and other structure could be scattered through out the wilderness, and be rather public accessible.
Small groves, caves, would have major thick barrier for protection and to hide the settlement.
A small metal working smith would exist, not capable of large production, just for making some needed items.
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This was added in the "Settlement" thread:
Druids in Pathfinder are not (exclusively) loners who live in the land.One of the most powerful kingdoms in the River Kingdoms is Sevenarches, a kingdom ruled entirely by Druids.
Lisa
& Imbicatus linked Sevenarches
Sevenarches is a town in the southwestern River Kingdoms built around seven stone arches which are scattered around the settlement. These are an ancient site, sacred to the elves. Sevenarches has not been in elven hands for millennia, ever since they left Golarion for the safety of Sovyrian; since then, Sevenarches has been under the rule of the Oakstewards. The Oakstewards are very selective about whom they let approach the community, banning elves and outsiders from approaching, as Sevenarches guards a rift to the First World of the fey. As a result of the rift, followers of the Green Faith are extremely common. Sevenarches is also home to a wide variety of fey and many treants, some of whom live in the city, while others are simply passing through. Rumor has it that the arches for which the town is named once served as portals to other worlds, perhaps functioning like more powerful elf gates. Kyonin has shown great interest in reclaiming this ancient site, but the Oakstewards refuse any elf entry into Sevenarches. While this problem has yet to come to a head, there are rumours that some elves have been considering radical solutions to get rid of the human rulers of the town.
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A hideout has a detection radius, which for a druid grove would be easily explained by speak with animals and speak with plants. I think that druids would be very interested in who is in the area of their grove. The question is will the devs make a special instance of the hideout (which at present can't become a settlement) that can be expansible to settlement status, and thus be able to control a hex.
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Perhaps a balancing factor for druid settlements being so exclusive and specific to one class (as far as classes actually will exist in this game... what is a druid in a classless game? What is a paladin in a classless game?) would be that a loose collection of circled stones or other types of small structures would have a much lower cost and be much faster to raise. So if they do get taken over, the conquerors don't get much use out of it except the land, and it wasn't that much of a loss anyway, and they can simply start a new one in the woods somewhere else. Kind of makes sense that they would be nomadic and forever running away from the expansion of development, or pushing back against it.
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No, I'm thinking it needs to be a real settlement allowing others of compatible alignment in, just like aany other settlement only NN aligned.
Then sure you could have a super secret Druid's Grove or Glen for worship and learning but not for a settlement, per se.
Settlements are for interaction with others and are inclusive rather than exclusive.
A hideout has a detection radius, which for a druid grove would be easily explained by speak with animals and speak with plants. I think that druids would be very interested in who is in the area of their grove. The question is will the devs make a special instance of the hideout (which at present can't become a settlement) that can be expansible to settlement status, and thus be able to control a hex.
This actually would be pretty cool. A low "level",perhaps skill is a better way to put it, so a low skilled Druid would have knowledge of things in the immediate area, but as the Druid rises in skill, their awareness of what's happening in the surrounding area expands ultimately ending up in their knowing everything that takes place within the hex where their settlement, or grove is located.
This makes perfect sense when you consider a Druids rapport with the plants and animals within their hex, so their knowing who's doing what in the hex just works out logically.
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Historical note:
Originally in early PnP the metal thing was as much roleplay as a combat restriction as Druids fought in wildshape.
However by early 3.5 there was a tendency to be more and more Draconian on the metal rules, as well as the handle animal requirements for working with animal companions and particularly the barding restrictions on animals simply because early 3.5 Druids were melee combat monsters with a full caster progression.
This included restricting the Druid from using metal barding on the animal companion (by level 12 or so Druids commonly had Polar Bear companions in mithral plate which buffed up could take on most player characters of the same level) and many DMs were getting very nit-picking about armor proficiency of the animal in question. Many Druids responded by using mithral chain barding (no encumbrance) but the reply to that was "Druids should not make their companion use metal".
To some extent Druids may have been a touch overpowered. By level 16 or so a druid could wild-shape to Hydra and munch anything in sight. Let us not even talk about Planar Shepherd and wild-shaping to outsider form with outsider companions.
The other big issue is it was an unspoken assumption in the early editions of PnP that fighters and barbarians would dominate the game at lower levels but gradually get overtaken by arcane casters, divine casters and druids later in the game. With the advent of computer games people now demand a "balance" between the classes at all levels and get upset if a level 15 fighter is less effective in combat than a level 15 Druid or Battle Cleric.
Current Situation:
Subtle and not-so-subtle rule changes in PF have improved the lot of fighters and reduced the combat effectiveness of Druids and Battle Clerics.
Now that the classes are more balanced in PnP people no longer automatically assume a Druid is cheesy combat monster and are less fanatical about finding ways to limit them in game.
Furthermore with PFO being classless and level-less there is even less need to "balance" Druids by restrictions on things like metal weapons and metal barding.
I really hope the Devs come up with their version of the power each role will have throughout the game and stick to it. I remember how many classes got nerfed to uselessness in DAOC simply because other classes had gotten defeated a few times in battles to where they pitched fits on the forums until the Devs gave in to them, same thing happened in EQ and in Warhammer. I witnessed some epic fit throwing the few times I ventured onto the Wow forums before I abandoned that game.
I'm all for fixing a classes power if something is really out of whack. But I know in DAOC they killed the playability of the Champions and the Infiltrator classes way before release by chopping them across the board. Really made the classes useless to play.
Just say No to the Nerfbat!
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No, I'm thinking it needs to be a real settlement allowing others of compatible alignment in, just like aany other settlement only NN aligned.
Then sure you could have a super secret Druid's Grove or Glen for worship and learning but not for a settlement, per se.
Settlements are for interaction with others and are inclusive rather than exclusive.
It seems a grove sits most suitably in a wild hex. But turning this around, what Druid influence/training structure would fit in a settlement for Druids to have a presence/powerbase in these? That could be another question, maybe?
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I really hope the Devs come up with their version of the power each role will have throughout the game and stick to it. I remember how many classes got nerfed to uselessness in DAOC simply because other classes had gotten defeated a few times in battles to where they pitched fits on the forums until the Devs gave in to them, same thing happened in EQ and in Warhammer. I witnessed some epic fit throwing the few times I ventured onto the Wow forums before I abandoned that game.
I'm all for fixing a classes power if something is really out of whack. But I know in DAOC they killed the playability of the Champions and the Infiltrator classes way before release by chopping them across the board. Really made the classes useless to play.
Just say No to the Nerfbat!
Rofl, MJ went the other way with WAR (tweak other classes 1st) and still got player ire/fallout: MJ on Balancing explained: DAOC/WAR
Seems balancing is, "asking the wrong questions"?!
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I really hope the Devs come up with their version of the power each role will have throughout the game and stick to it. I remember how many classes got nerfed to uselessness in DAOC simply because other classes had gotten defeated a few times in battles to where they pitched fits on the forums until the Devs gave in to them, same thing happened in EQ and in Warhammer. I witnessed some epic fit throwing the few times I ventured onto the Wow forums before I abandoned that game.
I'm all for fixing a classes power if something is really out of whack. But I know in DAOC they killed the playability of the Champions and the Infiltrator classes way before release by chopping them across the board. Really made the classes useless to play.
Just say No to the Nerfbat!
Rofl, MJ went the other way with WAR (tweak other classes 1st) and still got player ire/fallout: MJ on Balancing explained: DAOC/WAR
Seems balancing is, "asking the wrong questions"?!
Often there is more than just balance involved.
A classic example is what I personally term "medieval fight club" players, people you sometimes suspect would actually play a historical Dark Ages RPG if they could find one.
These same individuals would simultaneously complain that single class fighters were "underpowered" while also whining about the "unrealistic" nature of the 3.5 spiked chain - one of the few versatile options a straight fighter had available. It takes all kinds.
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It seems a grove sits most suitably in a wild hex. But turning this around, what Druid influence/training structure would fit in a settlement for Druids to have a presence/powerbase in these? That could be another question, maybe?No, I'm thinking it needs to be a real settlement allowing others of compatible alignment in, just like aany other settlement only NN aligned.
Then sure you could have a super secret Druid's Grove or Glen for worship and learning but not for a settlement, per se.
Settlements are for interaction with others and are inclusive rather than exclusive.
My thoughts are evolving. Changing. I am trying to adapt to what I am learning.
A Grove seems like it would fit best deep in a forest, yes.
Possibly a settlement could incorporate trees, waterfalls & pools, and vegetation, ivy and grapevines, even vinyards. Conceivably, if the settlement upgraded, 'special trees' might upgrade to something like a grove, or perhaps the settlement might interweave with trees in its architecture and thus be more reconciled with urban druids especially were they members of the town council, much like a bishop might in other towns.
What about if one of the settlement options was to build a Druidic settlement that would incorporate the standard settlement buildings but with a Druidic flare, trees woven into buildings and streams, plants, even a mini grove in the settlements center.
Otherwise it could operate just like a settlement with all the upgrades and such. How does that sound?
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Often there is more than just balance involved.
A classic example is what I personally term "medieval fight club" players, people you sometimes suspect would actually play a historical Dark Ages RPG if they could find one.
These same individuals would simultaneously complain that single class fighters were "underpowered" while also whining about the "unrealistic" nature of the 3.5 spiked chain - one of the few versatile options a straight fighter had available. It takes all kinds.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with players wanting a more realistic view of weapons and armor. Yes, it's a fantasy game, but the spiked chain is a terrible idea. Flexible weapons tend to be more dangerous to the person wielding them than their opponents, and were never popular historically outside of the simple flail and martial artists who weren't allowed to use anything else. Look at someone attempting to use nunchaku for the first time. If they haven't practiced extensively, they are just as likely to hit themselves in the head or an arm than a stationary target dummy, much less someone actively trying to kill them. There is a reason why there have never been popular chain weapons in history; they just aren't worth the trouble.
Mechanically you could make a long staff weapon that is identical stat-wise and MUCH more believable. That said, it is a fantasy game, and if someone wants to use a spiked chain, let them. If I want medieval fight club, I'll just go to a SCA fighter practice and do it in real life.
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What about if one of the settlement options was to build a Druidic settlement that would incorporate the standard settlement buildings but with a Druidic flare, trees woven into buildings and streams, plants, even a mini grove in the settlements center.
Otherwise it could operate just like a settlement with all the upgrades and such. How does that sound?
My current thinking is something like this.
Druid Groves are similar to hideouts (this was suggested in another thread) but are attached to a neutral settlement ( NX, NN or XN) and are built in the same way any other building in a settlement is built.
Hence any neutral settlement can build a Druid Grove which will offer Druid related training and the only differences between a Grove and a normal training hall is that it is hidden and it is located outside the settlement itself in nearby woods or open ground.
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Surely a druidic grove is actually a temple?
My take on druids is that they are not exactly gregarious, and get together only for special occasions. A sacred grove would be at once the temple and forum for the local order of druids. A small community of rangers, lay members and people seeking solace would be permanent inhabitants, but the druids would be wandering the wilds or living in ramshackle huts deep in the forest.
The groves could act as healing and spiritual centres for bandits or outlaws, as well as sanctuaries for lone travellers.
Protecting the place would probably take the form of dense and spiky vegetation, animated plants and sympathetic wildlife (acting as NPC guards). That plus there would be little actual loot in such a place.
Modelling this in PFO will take more than the standard settlement plan, but it would be great for those who prefer to play characters outside normal urban environments. I don't see it happening any time soon, though.
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Only if hideouts can be within other kinds of Points of Interest.
It seems to me a bandit hideout is intended as something that is set up in non-settlement/non-PoI hexes, such as in forested/hilly/swampy areas near roadways. Groves would be more likely to be remote from heavily travelled areas.
Other hand a grove, if implemented (that is by no means a given), might be a similar sort of structure as a hideout, only for Druids rather than overpowdered Rogues.
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I don´t think the kind of rouges that hang out in hideouts will be overpowdered;)
i really hope the implement grooves.
they are as much a part of the druid & ranger background as are temples for clerics and paladins.
...grooves, hidden with phantasmal terrain, containing ramshackled sheds, magical wells, treant guardians and interconected tree gates... and then we take over the world!!!
for it´s own good of course;)
Edit: make that to restore the balance of course.
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I don´t think the kind of rouges that hang out in hideouts will be overpowdered;)
i really hope the implement grooves.
they are as much a part of the druid & ranger background as are temples for clerics and paladins....grooves, hidden with phantasmal terrain, containing ramshackled sheds, magical wells, treant guardians and interconected tree gates... and then we take over the world!!!
for it´s own good of course;)
Edit: make that to restore the balance of course.
Very funny to bring up powdered and grooves in the same post. I think we'll have to wait a while for a soundtrack, and we'll provide our own grooves.
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The "Rouges are overpowdered" line? I stole it from an article. I wish I could remember where I saw it...
maybe it goes back to this?