Witch doctor

[prometheus's_curse]

Can a half-Orc be a witch doctor?

[Cheapy]

Why not just be an orc?

[Seranov]

If your DM says so, yes. It seems to be the consensus among the developers that no, you can't. And for some reason, a Human or Half-orc with the Racial Heritage: Orc feat is okay, but a straight Half-orc is not.

I did away with that in the game I ran (I even have a PbP game where the DM is letting me play a Dwarf Scarred Witch Doctor who was raised by REALLY, REALLY DUMB Orcs.) but not all DMs are willing to do so.

[prometheus's_curse]

^lol

[Kazaan]

By RAW, yes. Some of the devs have stated that you can't, but barring some official errata to other similar situations (ie. Racial Heritage), or expressly limiting the SOWD archetype to the race named Orc and not just to those possessing the Orc subtype, it's contradictory with RAW.

[blackbloodtroll]

Racial archetypes are not effects. This is what Half-Orc count as Orcs for. This is why Half-Orcs cannot take Human, or Orcs favored class bonuses.

You will need to be the race, or have the Racial Heritage(Orc) feat.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Where have the developers stated you cannot? Links? Is it just another Ask JJ thing in the thread where he explicitly says his opinion is not RAW w/ him saying he doesn't like it, so no?

There is an FAQ for Racial Heritage saying that archetype is an "effect". Since orc blood also lets you count as orc for effects and uses the same freaking wording, by RAW *and* by common damn sense, Half-Orc can take it.

[blackbloodtroll]

Archetypes are not effects, and there has never been anything stating as such from any developer.

Racial Heritage FAQ.

Racial Favored Class Bonus FAQ.

Please note that the Orc Blood racial trait, and the Racial Heritage do not have the exact same wording. The feat has additional wording.

[prometheus's_curse]

So am I to understand that the heritage feat is in a gray area and the only way to be a witch doctor officially is to a full out Orc. As in half-Orc and other feats that make you more Orc don't help.

[Seranov]

As a Half-orc, you can take Racial Heritage: Orc.

But really all that means is your human half is what lets you take the archetype, not your orc half. Which I believe is just plain stupid.

bbt is absolutely correct in regards to the RAW/RAI, but that doesn't mean I have to like it (or abide by it, in my case)!

[StreamOfTheSky]

I realize this is the rules forum, but I will never bow to insipid, completely illogical "RAW," especially when it is not nearly as cut and dry as people try to make it seem.

Let's use our brains, shall we?

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Archetypes are not effects, and there has never been anything stating as such from any developer.

Racial Heritage FAQ.

Racial Favored Class Bonus FAQ.

Archetypes are not effects, and there has never been anything stating as such from any developer.

Dude, your own link....

Spoiler:

Can a human with the Racial Heritage feat take levels in an archetype that requires you to be of a specific race?
Yes, the Racial Heritage feat allows you to qualify for archetypes that have the chosen race as a requirement, assuming you still meet all of the other requirements to take levels in the archetype.

—Jason Bulmahn, 07/27/12

Now, there are two possible conclusions to draw from this statement. One is, "Racial Heritage works because a dev specifically said so, and there's nothing more to it! Lalalala I can't hear you, lalalala!"

Then there's the thing where you ask WHY Racial Heritage allows you to. WHAT about the feat lead the dev to say it works? You need reasons and arguments to justify a conclusion, whether they are explicitly stated or not.

Spoiler:

Racial Heritage (Human)
The blood of a non-human ancestor flows in your veins.

Prerequisite: Human.

Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.

That's the feat, right there. I put the actual rules for what it does in italics, if it helps. And bolded the part *I* think allows it to work for archetypes. If you think some other part of the feat is why, please point it out to me.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Please note that the Orc Blood racial trait, and the Racial Heritage do not have the exact same wording.

Actually, they do.

Spoiler:

Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.

Spoiler:

Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.

The feat gives an option of racial choice. Let's substitute "Orc" in and see what that leaves us.

Spoiler:

You count as both human and orc for any effects related to race.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

The feat has additional wording.

What additional wording? I quoted the entire feat above. The only additional wording is an INexhaustive list of examples of things that count as effects. And archetypes is not one of the items on said list. It literally starts off with, "For example...". That's not additional rules text, that's.... (wait for it) examples!

"Driving faster than 65 mph is considered speeding."

"Driving faster than 65 mph is considered speeding. For example, if you were driving 72 mph, you would be considered speeding."

The 2nd statement has no more "rules" than the first, they are legally the same statement. Adding examples doesn't make it a different rule.

And considering the topic of this thread, archetypes, isn't one of the items listed in the first place, I really don't even know what point you're even trying to make anyway. Racial Heritage's feat text on its own gives no greater indication of whether it applies to archetypes than Orc blood does.

[prometheus's_curse]

I going to take it that means you don't have to be full human to take that feat. Despite the feat only listing human as a prerequisite. Also the description of Orc blood, which half orc's have, is quite close to the feats description. Basically what I'm getting at is what's the point I don't see the difference? Is it that that taking the feat makes you more Orc. Like your human mother has an Orc ancestor so you move from 50% Orc to 51% majority rules.

[prometheus's_curse]

O just saw the one above mine. It does lead me to another question though. If what you say is true Stream why don't the half blooded archetypes say human/race rather than half-race?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't understand the question.

Something specifically for a half race can't be taken by a 100% human or 100% orc or whatever (without Racial Heritage, of course). But a half-orc counts as both and thus can take things meant for humans or orcs. That's one of the benefits of being a half-race. And it will also be a double-edged sword if an enemy has an orc-bane or human-bane weapon or the like, you're susceptible to more specialized attacks and abilities than a non- half-race is.

[Umbranus]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Racial Favored Class Bonus FAQ.

This link has nothing to do with the question asked as it's not about favored class bonuses.

It might seem similar but that's not the same.

[Kazaan]

Lastly, to put the nail firmly in the coffin:

ARG wrote:

Humanoid (0 RP)

Humanoid races have few or no supernatural or spell-like abilities, but most can speak and have well-developed societies. Humanoids are usually Small or Medium, unless they have the giant subtype, in which case they are Large. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype to match its race, such as human, giant, goblinoid, reptilian, or tengu. If you are making a new humanoid race, you should either find an existing subtype to match or make a new one by using the name of the race as the subtype. If you are making a half-breed race, it should have the racial type of both parent races. For example, a half-elf has both the human and the elf subtypes. Subtypes are often important to qualify for other racial abilities and feats. If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites. A humanoid race has the following features.

"If a humanoid race has a racial subtype, it counts as a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites." All hybrid races (ie. Half-Elf, Half-Orc, etc) have multiple racial subtypes reflecting their parentage. In fact, the "Elf-blood" and "Orc-blood" abilities listed in the CRB are not even present in the ARG... anywhere. Those abilities are entirely subsumed by the racial type/subtype system and are a vestigial artifact of a bygone era. The meaty part is that the racial type/subtype is what qualified you for race-based prerequisites; not the name of your race. I could come up with a custom race using the ARG with Humanoid(Orc) as its type but name it something completely different; say Orks. I fiddle around with their abilities; they're still cousin races sharing the same racial subtype, but they're not the core race Orcs. They'd still qualify for any feats, racial archetypes, traits, etc. that have Orc as a racial prerequisite. They'd also be affected as Orcs by any spells or abilities that call out Orcs for different treatment (ie. Bane). The logic that they don't count as Orcs because their name isn't "Orc" or because they are just orc subtypes and not the actual core race "Orcs" is putting fluff above rules. Now, that having been said, an argument may be made that favored class bonuses are attached to the race itself and not to the subtype (just because it's what the devs have implied). I'd say that's contrived and sets up a double-standard on the rules and makes people need to design their own set of favored class bonuses for custom races made using the ARG; something that the ARG doesn't readily have rules for how to create in a balanced manner.

Conclusion: By RAW, if you have the appropriate race and subtype, you satisfy racial prerequisites. This means that Half-Orcs count for both Human, Orc, and Half-Orc (mechanically, must have both human and orc subtypes) prereqs. Witch Doctor has a racial prereq of Orc. Half-Orc satisfies. The word "effects" isn't limited to "spell or ability effects".

[blackbloodtroll]

FAQ'd.

Want an answer? Please do the same.

[Lab_Rat]

Just noticed they did an FAQ on the issue:

CRB FAQ wrote:

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?

No. While half-elves and half-orcs do count as humans "for any effect related to race", racial class archetypes do not count as an "effect."

—Pathfinder Design Team, Friday

There we have it. Half-orcs and half-elfs can not use their racial subtypes to gain racial archetypes. The only way to be a scarred witch doctor is to be an ORC or be human/half-elf/half-orc and take the RACIAL HERITAGE feat.

[Ximen Bao]

Lab_Rat wrote:

Just noticed they did an FAQ on the issue:

CRB FAQ wrote:

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?

No. While half-elves and half-orcs do count as humans "for any effect related to race", racial class archetypes do not count as an "effect."

—Pathfinder Design Team, Friday

There we have it. Half-orcs and half-elfs can not use their racial subtypes to gain racial archetypes. The only way to be a scarred witch doctor is to be an ORC or be human/half-elf/half-orc and take the RACIAL HERITAGE feat.

"Racial class archetypes do not count as an "effect," [except in the case of the Racial Heritage feat.]" I believe is what they meant to say.

Otherwise the feat is now incorrect in the ability it describes.

[MacGurcules]

Lab_Rat wrote:

Just noticed they did an FAQ on the issue:

CRB FAQ wrote:

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?

No. While half-elves and half-orcs do count as humans "for any effect related to race", racial class archetypes do not count as an "effect."

—Pathfinder Design Team, Friday

There we have it. Half-orcs and half-elfs can not use their racial subtypes to gain racial archetypes. The only way to be a scarred witch doctor is to be an ORC or be human/half-elf/half-orc and take the RACIAL HERITAGE feat.

In light of section Kazaan referenced, that seems more than a little contradictory.

[Kazaan]

Lab_Rat wrote:

Just noticed they did an FAQ on the issue:

CRB FAQ wrote:

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?

No. While half-elves and half-orcs do count as humans "for any effect related to race", racial class archetypes do not count as an "effect."

—Pathfinder Design Team, Friday

There we have it. Half-orcs and half-elfs can not use their racial subtypes to gain racial archetypes. The only way to be a scarred witch doctor is to be an ORC or be human/half-elf/half-orc and take the RACIAL HERITAGE feat.

That FAQ entry is directly contradictory with the APG entry on Racial Heritage. Racial Archetypes count as an "effect related to race" for Racial Heritage but not for having the appropriate sub-type through a hybrid race. This "ruling" introduces more conflict and solves nothing. I'm calling shenanigans; contradictory rulings/FAQ entries can be discounted until either Racial Heritage or the line in ARG stating that "having the appropriate subtype qualifies for meeting racial prerequisites" is changed to match up with this ruling. The first answer by JB overrides it because it came first.

[Lab_Rat]

I agree. The two FAQ posts (Half-races and Racial Heritage) are contradictory. I would prefer things to slide towards the Racial Heritage interpretation as this opens up archetypes a little more.

[Kazaan]

Furthermore, the ARG clearly states that humanoids qualify for racial prerequisites based on their subtype.

ARG wrote:

Humanoid (0 RP)
Humanoid races have few or no supernatural or spell-like abilities, but most can speak and have well-developed societies. Humanoids are usually Small or Medium, unless they have the giant subtype, in which case they are Large. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype to match its race, such as human, giant, goblinoid, reptilian, or tengu. If you are making a new humanoid race, you should either find an existing subtype to match or make a new one by using the name of the race as the subtype. If you are making a half-breed race, it should have the racial type of both parent races. For example, a half-elf has both the human and the elf subtypes. Subtypes are often important to qualify for other racial abilities and feats. If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites. A humanoid race has the following features.

The bolded passage mentions nothing of "effects related to race". It simply and explicitly states that if you have a racial subtype, you are considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites. Scarred Orc Witch Doctor has a racial prerequisite of "Orc". So, if you have the Orc subtype, you qualify for it. Half-Orc has the Orc subtype. Regardless of "Orc-blood" referencing the vague "effects related to race", Half-Orc still has the Orc subtype. If you look at the Core Race Examples section under Half-Elf or Half-Orc, you'll find that "Elf-blood" and "Orc-blood" aren't even abilities to be given to a race. Those "abilities" are entirely subsumed by the racial type(subtype) system.

[Kalenz]

ALL HAIL THE GREAT ASMODEUS, AS HE SHALL SPARE YOUR MORTAL SOULS