Make wizard feats changable like fighter feats.


Homebrew and House Rules


Its bad enough wizard feats are heavily regulated to mostly MM feats. in addition to needing more feats (suggesting 1/4 level instead of 1/5 with scribe scroll open to any feat) these feats should be changeable as a fighter can change theirs. This would allow someone to use some +1 level feats early on then drop them for +3/+4s later. As it is its far too hard to get a wide range of MM feats as a wizard and still have any left to use for development.


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Because wizards aren't powerful enough and need help?

Ultimate Campaign is supposed to have retraining rules in it which may help with this; see if you can convince your GM to use them when they're out.


Distant Scholar wrote:

Because wizards aren't powerful enough and need help?

Ultimate Campaign is supposed to have retraining rules in it which may help with this; see if you can convince your GM to use them when they're out.

How does this add more power? It just helps keep players happy with their toon. You have no more power than if you have correctly picked feats to begin with. Sometimes people create wizards without being experts on them first. I know, hard to believe.


Wizards can already retrain better than fighters. A fighter doesn't get to choose a whole new set of feats every day and can't prepare new feats on the spot given sixty seconds, and fighter retraining is too slow and limited to be useful when it is seriously needed.

If you want to make retraining more widely available, open it up to all classes. Don't just give the wizard the extra power to retrain while leaving the monk unable to retrain.

Also don't give the wizard more extra bonus feats why would you do that.

Sovereign Court

Retraining is always a bit iffy from an immersion standpoint: "I used to be able to cast Magic Missile as a Toppling Spell".

There's also some possibility for abuse: take Forge Ring to make a Ring of Sustenance and another ring, then trade in the feat for something else because how many rings can you use anyway?

Anyway, I don't think the current wizard bonus feats are weak.

Scribe Scroll is a decent feat that helps offset the difficulties of having to select a spell preparation every day. (It also meshes nicely with the flavor of using spellbooks.)

At 5th level, you could take Craft Wondrous Item, which is extremely nice because wondrous items make up 75% of the stuff a wizard wants.

Taking metamagic isn't unpleasant either, because of Spell Perfection. There's quite a few metamagics that age gracefully, too (Reach, Rime, Intensify, Empower...)

Arcane discoveries... are pretty nice. The one that lets you prepare spells rapidly can be useful if you leave out a few spell slots. Opposition Research is pretty cool too.


I do agree that more feats should be included. Arcane discoveries were a nice touch, but still... Anything with an arcane caster level or that directly relates to spellcasting in general (like spell focus) should be made available. I personally hate scribe scroll, as my group can easily buy any scrolls we need, so my GM was kind enough to let me swap it for eschew materials.

Verdant Wheel

Roberta Yang wrote:
If you want to make retraining more widely available, open it up to all classes. Don't just give the wizard the extra power to retrain while leaving the monk unable to retrain.

this is a cool idea.

i think that having a fun or effective character at every level is important. the rule set should support this first and foremost. not all campaigns start characters 'poofed' at a certain level. in fact, many campaigns start characters out at 1st level with about 100 gold pieces. Retraining allows characters to pick up useful abilities early on and invest in more complicated feat trees (whose main benefit is often at a higher level).

what do you think is a fair universal feat retraining system? feats are acquired at odd levels, ability scores at second-evens, how about first evens (2/6/10/14/18)? this would still give fighter an 'every level' advantage...


Fighters can't retrain every level. They can only retrain one feat every four levels. And that feat has to be one of their fighter bonus feats, not one of their regular feats, so hopefully that feat that didn't work out for you happened to become available at an even level. And it can't be a prerequisite for any other feat, so hopefully it wasn't part of a tree or anything, except since you're a fighter it probably was because most combat feats are part of a deep tree. And you can't even come close to retraining a tree because one feat every four levels is so slow, so if anything substantial didn't work out, it will take a dozen levels to fix. Except you won't actually be able to fix it at all even after because at least one link in the chain will probably have been taken as a regular feat instead of a bonus feat. (Note that all this stuff about trees is only really true of combat feats since caster feats mostly don't need to deal with trees, they can just take whatever they want.)

Basically what I'm trying to say is that, with the exception of an extremely simple planned obsolescence like taking Cleave at level 1 and getting rid of it at level 4, fighter bonus feat retraining is kind of garbage. In particular, if you find that your build isn't turning out to be effective and want to fix things, retraining probably won't really help the fighter, even though that's ostensibly the point of retraining.

Sovereign Court

@rainzax: the promo material for Ultimate Campaign promises a retraining system for all classes.. I want to look at that before I decide if I should make my own system.


Wizards should get Meteor Swarm as a 1st level spell.


Grayfeather wrote:
Its bad enough wizard feats are heavily regulated to mostly MM feats. in addition to needing more feats (suggesting 1/4 level instead of 1/5 with scribe scroll open to any feat) these feats should be changeable as a fighter can change theirs. This would allow someone to use some +1 level feats early on then drop them for +3/+4s later. As it is its far too hard to get a wide range of MM feats as a wizard and still have any left to use for development.

You want to make the most powerful, most flexible class MORE powerful and MORE flexible?

Wizards. Get. Spells. Who gives a **** about the feats when you have spells?

The Exchange

In non PFS most GMs I've played with are open to tweaking your character. In PFS you can retrain before lvl 2.

Edit: and yeah full casters should focus on their spells they are stronger than feats and you get more of them.

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