Crossbow, Repeating

[DrDeth]

Crossbow, Repeating: The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity."

By this I surmise:

If you have iterative attacks, with a repeating crossbow you can get off that many shots, as long as there is enuf ammo in the clip?

And with Rapid shot, one more shot? So, with a BAB of 6, you'd get 3?

And Rapid reload does nothing?

Any other CB specific feats that would help?

[Nightskies]

Crossbow Mastery

But why use a repeating crossbow if you have this feat? Rapid reload, strictly read, does not benefit a repeating crossbow. I doubt anyone would be bothered by making it a standard action to reload the repeating crossbow with rapid reload, but, RAW, no.

Iterative attacks may be made with a repeating crossbow. Rapid shot would give another attack.

[Rynjin]

Though you have to wonder why pulling a trigger takes as long as swinging a sword or nocking and loosing an arrow.

[cwslyclgh]

It doesn't... unless you want to... you know.... hit something. Spray and pray doesn't really work very well with guns and certainly not with repeating crossbows.

[Rynjin]

cwslyclgh wrote:

It doesn't... unless you want to... you know.... hit something. Spray and pray doesn't really work very well with guns and certainly not with repeating crossbows.

It works a lot better than firing 7 arrows (two of them at once on the first shot) from a longbow in the same span of time.

[Bearlock]

To the OP

yes
yes, yes
by RAW yes
I have no idea, it's always been easier to just have my PC use a longbow

I really like the repeating crossbow/multi bolt concept. Waylander the Slayer, the crossbows from Underworld, they are just cool, and I wish they had more support. My only issue with them comes from DR. Its a lot easier to pick special material arrows out of a quiver than it is to start in with a clip of regular bolts, only to find that you need silver bolts. And by RAW, you are now screwed out of a full round action to load a new clip, more if you have to spend a move to unload the old one. And yeah, I SUPPOSE you could just rock silver/cold iron/whatever bolts ALL the time, but the point is, at some point you will get screwed needing something other than what you have loaded.

I would houserule Rapid Reload to make reloading a repeating crossbow a standard action

[DrDeth]

Nightskies wrote:

Crossbow Mastery

But why use a repeating crossbow if you have this feat? Rapid reload, strictly read, does not benefit a repeating crossbow. I doubt anyone would be bothered by making it a standard action to reload the repeating crossbow with rapid reload, but, RAW, no.

Iterative attacks may be made with a repeating crossbow. Rapid shot would give another attack.

Ah, Inquisitors get Repeating CB for free.

[MyTThor]

I'd rather have someone explain to me why a repeating crossbow is an exotic weapon. Harder to find? Sure. Harder to use? Well it consists of a lever and a trigger (fulcrum), call me crazy but those are two of the "simple" machines - and the exact same ones use to operate any other sort of crossbow.

[Loup Blanc]

I agree with MyTThor--I just don't understand the idea of making repeating crossbows exotic.

PC 1: "Hey, I know you like using crossbows, so check this one out! It holds more than one bolt at a time."

PC 2: "I don't know how to use that."

PC 1: "What? But, but... it's just a normal crossbow."

PC 2: "I NEVER LEARNED HOW TO OPERATE A LEVER LIKE THAT, OKAY???"

...Yet s/he can pull back the string in a couple seconds (a strong feat IRL), and s/he knows how to use the winch on the heavy crossbow (doubtless more complex than flicking a switch).

[Talynonyx]

MyTThor wrote:

I'd rather have someone explain to me why a repeating crossbow is an exotic weapon. Harder to find? Sure. Harder to use? Well it consists of a lever and a trigger (fulcrum), call me crazy but those are two of the "simple" machines - and the exact same ones use to operate any other sort of crossbow.

Because not everybody will have trained with it. The box on top will throw off the balance. You would have to learn to pull the lever quickly and smoothly in combat, a quick uneven jerk might not set the strong properly. It's built differently from a normal crossbow, so things aren't quite the same.

[Hayato Ken]

Game mechanic reasons. The bow is above everything and with a normal crossbow you have to spend a feat. So you can either spend the feat on rapid reload or exotic weapon proficiency.

[Bearlock]

Talynonyx wrote:

MyTThor wrote:

I'd rather have someone explain to me why a repeating crossbow is an exotic weapon. Harder to find? Sure. Harder to use? Well it consists of a lever and a trigger (fulcrum), call me crazy but those are two of the "simple" machines - and the exact same ones use to operate any other sort of crossbow.

Because not everybody will have trained with it. The box on top will throw off the balance. You would have to learn to pull the lever quickly and smoothly in combat, a quick uneven jerk might not set the strong properly. It's built differently from a normal crossbow, so things aren't quite the same.

I think the point that they are making is that, even though yes, training to use the weapon properly in combat would be essential, its hard to see how learning to manage a balance difference and proper lever/trigger pull would be that hard when EVERYBODY is already proficient with a regular crossbow, even in combat.

It's like learning how to shoot an M9 in combat, then somebody gave me a Glock. Yeah the ergonomics are different, but I already still know the basic concept of how to use my weapon in a combat situation. The basic principle and function remain the same. Would it take practice to be as good as I was before with the M9? Undoubtedly. But not as much as if somebody gave me a whole new weapon. They are both semi automatic handguns. A regular crossbow and the repeating crossbow, are both crossbows.

[Talynonyx]

By the same argument, why is a bastard sword exotic to use in one hand? Because it does require more effort/training/know-how to use than a longsword, despite being functionally the same.

[Bearlock]

Talynonyx wrote:

By the same argument, why is a bastard sword exotic to use in one hand? Because it does require more effort/training/know-how to use than a longsword, despite being functionally the same.

But you can use a bastard sword as two handed martial weapon by RAW. You can't use a repeating crossbow by RAW without EWP. Even if somebody handed it to you, bolt cocked, and all you had to do was squeeze the trigger like a regular crossbow, you would be non-proficient by RAW. Some people may not, and actually most people don't see a bastard sword as being to terribly useful, "just use a longsword, you only give up 1 point of average damage". And again, we are trying to match up RL to game mechanics, but here goes:

IMO, the bastard sword would be worth a feat because in real life sword fighting is much harder and training intensive than shooting a crossbow. Using a longer weapon in one hand means different foot-work, grips, ranges of attack, and mostly the skill to use a weapon comfortable in two hands to the average warrior in one hand.

----
It all boils down to game balance. You want more options/damage? Pay the cost. Heaven forbid if every commoner had proficiency with repeating crossbows, the whole game would be unbalanced and nobody could play. /sarcasm. Its a game. Everybody can do what they want, but if you stick to RAW you run into these little things that just bother some people, so we come on here to b~@&@ about it and argue over it with strangers.

[Hayato Ken]

Exotic weapons are weapons that are better than the rest.
This can be the size (light, one-handed,...), the threat range, the damage dice, or specials.
A bastard sword is exotic because if you use it one-handed, its better than a longsword or other normal swords. ( the katana changed that, but it´s eastern and exotic too one-handed)
A repeating crossbow gives you a big advantage especially on low levels.
Other crossbow users can´t shoot five times in a row, they need to invest in rapid reload first. Even then you need a move action to reload a heavy crossbow.
Now if you take EWP heavy repeating crossbow you can shoot five times in a row. That´s at all times of the game better than a normal heavy crossbow and rapid reload.

It´s really not about training or whatever, but ingame statistics and mechanics and it makes sense in most cases. In this case it does make sense.

[Nightskies]

Bearlock wrote:

...when EVERYBODY is already proficient with a regular crossbow, even in combat.

Not true. Druids and commoners are not (but can be).

[Bearlock]

I was making a point, but I should have been accurate and said "anyone proficient with simple weapons, INCLUDING sorcerers and wizards, can fire a regular crossbow properly, even in combat."

[Davick]

Hayato Ken wrote:

Exotic weapons are weapons that are better than the rest.

This can be the size (light, one-handed,...), the threat range, the damage dice, or specials.
A bastard sword is exotic because if you use it one-handed, its better than a longsword or other normal swords. ( the katana changed that, but it´s eastern and exotic too one-handed)
A repeating crossbow gives you a big advantage especially on low levels.
Other crossbow users can´t shoot five times in a row, they need to invest in rapid reload first. Even then you need a move action to reload a heavy crossbow.
Now if you take EWP heavy repeating crossbow you can shoot five times in a row. That´s at all times of the game better than a normal heavy crossbow and rapid reload.

It´s really not about training or whatever, but ingame statistics and mechanics and it makes sense in most cases. In this case it does make sense.

Actually, SKR and James Jacobs and Jason have all said that some exotic weapons suck but are IRL difficult to use. It SHOULD be based on mechanics, since you use a mechanic feat to get it and I find it idiotic to base mechanics off of a fictional malleable appearance (my longsword looks like a sai, deal with it) but that's the way it is.