I had a situation come up recently in game. The party was fighting a custom undead of some sort in a room filled with smoke (it simulated the effects of an obscuring mist, concealment within five feet, total concealment beyond).
The undead stepped up next to me and used a breath weapon and hit me (and maybe someone else, but that is irrelevant). One of the breath weapon's effects was one round of blindness upon a failed save. I failed the save. I then tried to use a hex on the undead, but was told by the GM that I could not because I did not know where the undead was.
One of our twice weekly rules debates ensued (I usually point and laugh during these) during which we were all looking at how hexes work and targets spells (for reference) but we did not come up with anything terribly conclusive beyond live of sight stuff. We finally settled on the total concealment miss chance.
Is this correct. The GMs argument is that I did not know where he was. My argument is that I did have him pin pointed because I had seen him as he moved up and that the breath weapon was an attack, automatically pin pointing him. Please advise.
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Read aiming a spell under magic.
Target or Targets
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
Edit: hexes are supernatural effects and the witch hexes I looked at didn't mention targeting, but I assume it applies....
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You need line of sight. You don't see - you don't have line of sight,
so you can't use any targeted effect, spells and hex included.
There is an exception: you can grope trying to touch him as a full round action and then, if you can, you can use your hex.
The relevant rules are scattered around the CRB and some should be inferred from different rules.
As an example, the procedure for delivering targeted effect against a target with full concealment is inferred from the rules about coup de grace and the magic rules:
"You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace)."
"Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell."
As they are inferred rules your GM can see them working in a different way.
Simply knowing the target probable location don't allow you to target him.
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I would agree with the DM. The supernatural ability is clearly a targeted effect, which always require that you can see the target to hit them. While you do not have to see them clearly (20% miss chance doesn't stop you), you do have to be able to see them at all (any source of total concealment, including being blind).
If it had an attack roll, I would allow you to guess the square and simply deal with the miss chance, but as it stands it fits under the "targeted effect" banner not the "melee/ranged attack" banner.
You need line of sight. You don't see - you don't have line of sight,
so you can't use any targeted effect, spells and hex included.There is an exception: you can grope trying to touch him as a full round action and then, if you can, you can use your hex.
The relevant rules are scattered around the CRB and some should be inferred from different rules.
As an example, the procedure for delivering targeted effect against a target with full concealment is inferred from the rules about coup de grace and the magic rules:
"You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace)."
"Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell."
As they are inferred rules your GM can see them working in a different way.
Simply knowing the target probable location don't allow you to target him.
If touching him is sufficient, why do we need a full round?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Invisibility
If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy's not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there and tell him that the character has missed, regardless of the result. That way the player doesn't know whether the attack missed because the enemy's not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.
He should be able to guess the opponent's square based on the breath attack. He should then be able to make a melee touch attack (though 50% concealment applies) to be able to target the creature. I'd expect this to be a free touch attack as part of the hex, but I don't think the rules are terribly clear on that.
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If touching him is sufficient, why do we need a full round?...
He should be able to guess the opponent's square based on the breath attack. He should then be able to make a melee touch attack (though 50% concealment applies) to be able to target the creature. I'd expect this to be a free touch attack as part of the hex, but I don't think the rules are terribly clear on that.
And that is the problem of inferred rules, people see them differently. :)
About your questions.
1) He need a full round because he don't simply need to touch the target with a fleeting touch, but he need to grasp it in a reasonably firm way so that he can keep it pinpointed till he get to use his hex. Unless immobilized people don't stay rooted in one point. They can still be in the same square, but that is different from being in the same, exact spot.
2) Hexes don't give a free touch attack at all. There is nothing unclear in the rules.
In the proposed mechanic above the hex is still delivered as a ranged, targeted effect, simply, as the witch has a firm grasp on her target he get the possibility to use it as she know the exact location of the target.
Keep in mind that my comment is a proposed mechanic to resolve the situation using rules borrowed from related situations. AFAIK there are no specific rules about using targeted effects while blinded beside: "you can't".
Yes I did. I said said you granted the full effects of concelment, ie 50% miss chance. And I think you mean moot. No one at our table is mute.
You were right.
And if you kill me you get no pie.
I promised the group pie, not you.