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This one has to do with the witch coven hex.
The question concerns the bit about a coven must containing at least one hag. Does this mean a traditional hag or can just two witches who have this hex create an official coven themselves? If so, does this grant those two witches the traditional powers associated to a normal coven such as the 1/day use of mind blank et al?
Also, if a witch links up with multiple other witches (say 5) can they each grant a +1 to CL (to gain a +5 CL total)?
IIRC, a hag coven requires three hags. Two non-hag witches with the coven hex and a hag would qualify for the purposes of getting the coven powers.
For your second question: yes, but every witch, including the one getting the benefits, must have the coven hex.
Seems clear to me. Witches count as Hags for joining a Coven, but a Coven needs at least 1 Hag. Counts as Hag =/= Is a Hag.
Uhm, she counts as a hag, she is not a hag. The line that says a coven must contain a hag means the coven must contain one actual hag, not someone who 'counts as a hag'.
I'm honestly not sure why this is even a question? It seems very straight forward. Don't expect any devs to comment on it.
Edit : Ninja'd. :)
You count as a hag for joining a coven. It's right there in black and white.
If I walked up to you and told you to stand in a doorway and said "For today, you count as a door. Don't let people in." does that make you a door?
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I think the relevant part is "counts as a hag for joining a coven", i.e. that a witch may *join* a coven of actual hags, but three witches by themselves cannot *form* a real coven without any hags. If you ask me, the intention is similar to, for example, how a magus "counts 1/2 his total magus level as his fighter level for the purpose of qualifying for feats". Fighter Training ability does not give a magus any fighter levels, but he counts as a fighter half his level for the sole purpose of picking fighter-only feats.
Yeah unfortunately what they are saying is rules right -- as much as I don't like it.
There is no official ruling on this.
It seems it may have been intended for villain witches to gain a hag cohort or ally.
However, I like the idea of two old witches who have this feat looking for a 3rd young and naive witch to fill their coven. For that reason, I would allow it.
Changelings might also qualify as hags too.
It's been stated before that not all options are intended for PCs. The smell children, cooking, and coven hexes are all intended for evil NPCs.
There's no reason in the world everything in the books has to be intended for PCs. Anti-Paladin's are intended mostly for GMs to have a big nasty to send at you.
The Coven hex is the same thing. It's a mechanic for the GM to introduce Hag coven's a few levels earlier. He can throw one hag and 2-5 low level witches at a party and not overwhelm them where 3 hags would have.
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It's been stated before that not all options are intended for PCs. The smell children, cooking, and coven hexes are all intended for evil NPCs.
There's no reason in the world everything in the books has to be intended for PCs. Anti-Paladin's are intended mostly for GMs to have a big nasty to send at you.
The Coven hex is the same thing. It's a mechanic for the GM to introduce Hag coven's a few levels earlier. He can throw one hag and 2-5 low level witches at a party and not overwhelm them where 3 hags would have.
While that all may be true the Advanced Players Guide isn't really the place for that kind of thing IMO.
I don't see why it would not be applicable, the hex states that it needs to have a hag, and you count as a hag for the purposes of joining a coven. What point would there be to that of not for qualifying as that needed hag. Is there some other benefit to being a hag joining a coven?
Covens can cast certain spells with rituals and get a caster level boost I believe, that's the benefit.
I would absolutely agree that a coven without a hag would not get those other abilities because the hex isn't written that way. As written, I see no reason why a few witches couldn't get together and have everyone aid another one on to boost their CL by however many witches there are.
A potential use of this is scar. An area filled with witches out to a mile would be insane since the ability doesn't cap. Baba Yaga eat your heart out.
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would a halfling with child like and pass for human detect under the smell children hex?
That would be awesome! You just sniffed out a 10th level halfling paladin you stupid hags! AH-SMITE-AH!
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There are some threads floating around suggesting witch-flavor-friendly coven-completers that aren't hags, IIRC. Stuff like medusas, nymphs, genies and such more in tune with the alignments of other witches. Could be some stuff useful to your group if you want to expand the range of flavor.
Haha, if only.
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Covens can cast certain spells with rituals and get a caster level boost I believe, that's the benefit.
That is the benefit of joining a coven period. I was asking what the benefit of being a hag for the purposes of joining a coven were. If there is no benefit to being a hag joining a coven (as opposed to being anyone joining a coven) then would it not be reasonable to believe that it's intent is to qualify you as the required hag?
Aren't hags the only ones that can join covens in the first place?
Aren't hags the only ones that can join covens in the first place?
It is possible, but to me the hex does not read like that. Especially with the line about a coven requiring one hag. Can it really be called a coven if there is only one person in it? IIRC by definition a coven is at least a group of people (and sometimes more specifically is a group of witches, and sometimes even more specifically a group of 13 witches).
So it seems to me that it is possible.
Sah, a coven does require multiple people. It requires at least 3 hags. Says it right there in the coven rules.
When three hags of any type gather, they can form a coven to gain increased magical ability. Any combination of hags can form a coven, but green hags are the most common members of such foul gatherings.
With this Hex, you count as a Hag for the purpose of joining a coven, but that coven must contain at least one, true, honest to gods hag.
I'm not sure how much more clear-cut it could possibly be.
Well it could have been clearer in that all I was looking at was the Coven Hex, and I was unaware that there were rules elsewhere for it elsewhere, and this is why I was asking.
However I am now confused. That line also does backup the idea that non hags can join a coven. If the only types of covens that exist are at least 3 hags, then why have a requirement for it having at least 1 hag instead of 3? Or can you form a coven with a hag and another witch?
I am not trying to argue, I want to make that clear. I am asking to learn more about this subject.
Because if 2 Witches have the Coven Hex, they can both count as Hags for the purpose of joining, but they can't START a coven unless they're a Hag. You need at least 1 hag for a coven to be extant, but then things that "count as hags" can join.