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In an effort to provide a target rather than a complaint, let me spell out some of my concerns with the rules and guidelines and discuss ways forward for improvement.
1. Craft Wondrous Item needs to be split up. All of the others are pretty much fine considering you are giving up a feat for a relatively narrow field of study, but craft Wondrous Items is ridiculous. At a minimum sub-divide it into clothing and actual items, but I think a good point of discussion is how we can divide up this far to broad feat. If you make this several categories with different feats rather than one feat, a lot of the overpower concerns are addressed.
2. Why is the Wizard making weapons and armor? When did wizarding including blacksmithing and tanning. Not saying they shouldn't have access, but it adds nothing to the game that the Fighter can't make his own weapons and armor as well as a guy who has no proficiency at using such things. Yes they added master craftsman, but that should just be a rule rather than a feat, at least for weapons and armor. Opening it up to much? Perhaps, which leads me to...
3. You should have to be proficient in a weapon or armor to craft that weapon or armor. Will this mean Wizards will have less ability to craft weapons and armor. Yes. Is that a bad thing? Not in my opinion. At least not if you are making it easier for the other classes to craft for themselves if they choose.
4. You shouldn't be able to take 10 when crafting. You are getting an item for half-price, failing on one every once in a while isn't an unfair addition.
So lets look at just those changes.
Now Martial classes are the best at making weapons, fighters the best at making armor. Seems right.
Wizards, and casters in general, are still are the best at making magic items. Seems right.
You will need a heavy feat investment to fully outfit yourself, regardless of class, which seems right considering you double your WBL.
Thoughts? Particularly on ideas on how to subdivide Craft Wondrous Items.
I'd agree with that. It's always bothered me that only casters can make weapons (think Bruenor Battlehammer in the forgotten realms or the elves reforging Narsil in LOTR).
1. I could be on board with a reorganization.
2. As I understand it, the wizard isn't crafting a sword, but rather is enchanting a finely crafted one. Wizards had to learn to craft in older editions of the game.
3. I don't think proficiency should make a difference.
4. I really don't have enough in-game experience to comment meaningfully on the merits of taking 10, but it seems that if there is a cost to failure ($$) that you should not be able to do it.
I personally think the requirement to have crafting feats at all is irritating. Why not tie them to craft skills themselves? And caster only crafting just don't make sense to me.
This would be an interesting approach. I would still want to support is with feats, but not so many.
If your going to change the way magic items work, you should focus on changing the things that are actually problematic. I dont really think verisimilitude should be high on the list of issues.
I'll list how I would change magic item creation.
1. Take out magic crafting feats and replace it with a general feat like master craftsman.
2. Make it so that the above only works with a type of crafting that you have skill ranks in.
3. Make a list of skills that would be associated with the different fields of magical crafting. Spellcraft would be removed as an option.
4. Remove the major magical items that are associated to basic statistics, like the cloak of resistance, or belts of strength.
5. Excise about 70% of the character wealth by level and replace it with a point system that is tied to the character level chassis. (6 training points per level, or whatever arbitrary number accomplishes what is required)
The end result would be that characters would pick up their enhancement bonuses as they level. The magical items would not grant pluses, but offer interesting magical advantages, like flight or something.
Magic items are fun when they do something. Giving a character a cloak of resistance is not fun.
3. Make a list of skills that would be associated with the different fields of magical crafting. Spellcraft would be removed as an option.
What about scrolls?
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@Trogdar - And you create a ton of bookkeeping on the sheet for what various crafting skills you have, not to mention book space breaking down how each corresponds to what item, and which fields of magical crafting.
And options 4 and 5, changing basic statistics is the spine of the system. Reinventing the d20 system is not a goal I'm interested in for this discussion.
1.Bookkeeping? Really? Adding a few more craft skills isnt going to be an issue for anyone.
2.Perhaps, but crafting has always been an issue because it functions as a force multiplier that the DM has only some control over. I think that the base assumptions are the reason why it can become an issue. I certainly think its far more of an issue than wizards knowing how to make magic swords.
3. Make a list of skills that would be associated with the different fields of magical crafting. Spellcraft would be removed as an option.What about scrolls?
craft script?
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@Trogdar - You making a whole new set of skills makes Rogues the crafter class and complicates skills. Look at a character sheet and fill up all the blanks with various crafting options.
If you split the feats, you can reach the same goal.
If you don't like the theme of the discussion, you don't have to stick around. You can create your own thread.
Make Crafting Feats and Crafting functions (e.g.: enhancement pre-requisites) use Character Level/HD instead of Caster Level for Pre-Requisites.
Get Rid of Master Craftsman. Give every item an alternate way to craft it.
Craft(Weapons) for Swords and such. Craft(Bows) for Bows and such. Craft(Armour) for Armour. Craft(Caligraphy) &/or Linguistics for Scrolls.
The list goes on.
I have playtested this thoroughly. It works nicely.
@Trogdar - You making a whole new set of skills makes Rogues the crafter class and complicates skills. Look at a character sheet and fill up all the blanks with various crafting options.
If you split the feats, you can reach the same goal.
If you don't like the theme of the discussion, you don't have to stick around. You can create your own thread.
Have fun
I don't recommend splitting the Feats. We already have Feat Bloating.
Just keep them the same but open them up for non-casters.
I think only a few items require you to actually have a spell. And most have alternate Skills usable.
Though I also like the idea of increased Skill Ranks for most classes.
1. I like this for the most part, and simply splitting it up into slotted and unslotted would at least be a good start, in my opinion (gets a bit messy if you're customizing items, though).
2. Sort of agreed on this, and sort of not. As far as straight up enhancement goes, I definitely feel that is something that would make more sense to relegate to martial characters. Flavor-wise, I understand that it's supposed to be more a matter of enchantment than quality, but I'm personally more inclined to see it as quality. It seems more fitting - a sword made with amazing skill shouldn't top out at being a +1 to attack until magic is applied to it. That seems absurd.
However, special properties on weapons seems much more unusual like that. I'm all for letting a martial character learn how to make a +2 sword, no magic knowledge needed. When they make it burst into fire or holy light or something else is a bit more curious.
Just off the top of my head, seeing Master Craftsman be used for the magic part of it could work though. It would be a bit of a feat tax to add magical benefits, but it seems like that might work. Like I said, just a 'top-of-the-head' thought though.
3. This I disagree with. It's kind of arbitrary. Letting martials craft better equipment without a necessity for caster level will pretty much solve the second issue, and this just limits things otherwise. Just because you don't know how to use a sword to great effect in combat doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to make one.
4. I can understand the reasoning for this, but I'm not a fan of it. Taking 10 is mostly so that you don't mess up terribly when you are doing something. If it is a pretty much routine task, there's no reason to remove the option. The same could be argued for removing it from stealth, flying, or any other type of skill.
That said, this is a relatively minor concern in my opinion. I wouldn't find it that big of a deal to see Take 10 disallowed on crafting, I just also don't see much need for it to be disallowed either. YMMV, of course.
I dunno, those are a few of my thoughts on this at least.
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I think there are too many classes of items. I'd like to see the feats split:
Craft Consumable (Potions/Wands/ Oils/Elixirs) (Available at level 1 for alchemists/cauldron witches, level 3 for anyone else)
Craft Slotted Item (Items which fill in any item slot) (Available Level 5)
Craft Relic (Weapons/Staves/Unslotted Items/Constructs) (Available Level 7)
I think all classes should be able to sub their Craft or Spellcraft in for Caster Level. A rogue with 6 ranks in Craft (Alchemy) counts as a 6th level caster for purposes of Crafting Potions/Oils/Elixirs. 10 ranks in Craft (metalworking) should count as CL 10 for Rings/Armor/Metal Weapons. Spellcraft works as a sort of universal but requires a Masterwork component bought separately for enchantment (for permanent items).
Alternatively these feats should have an option of "Simple Crafting", where each Level characters gain a fixed amount of consumables/slotted items or relics for groups who don't want to deal with the design/math and just want a flavourful ability boost.
Since my main problem with the magic item system is far more fundamental than how you make them I don't have much to add to this, or the other threads about "fixing" the "problem" of creating magic items.
Yes, making magic items is a problem in Pathfinder, but it is a minor problem compared to magic items themselves.
My approach would be to go back to the drawing board and get rid of the silly progression of escalating bonuses to attack, damage, armor and resistance that have to get baked into the challenge rating which necessitates needing the blasted things in the first place.
And no, some half-baked "low magic campaign rules" approach isn't a fix to the issue, it's a raw, rough patch slapped on like a slab of duct tape on a broken tail light.
I keep coming back to a fundamental belief that magic items themselves should have minimal in combat impact. Certainly not enough impact to shift the balance of power in a fight, unless very cleverly used.
Magic items that actually have significant in combat impact should be rare and legendary items, essentially the same as artifacts. In my sort of game design a +3, dragon bane weapon would be an artifact, not something you find at the local magic shoppe and donut outlet.
There are plenty of ways in game mechanics to offer escalating power in weapons and armor without resorting to magic anyway. An adamantine suit of armor should have a higher AC than bronze armor, along with a suitable cost. That's how the real world works anyway.
So good luck coming up with a better way to fashion the very items that are actually the root of the real problem. I hope you succeed.
Theres another approach we've succesfully used in several campaigns, remaking crafting rules to be based on actual level rather than gold. Basically, when you take the feat and when you gain levels youve succesfully crafted something, getting related magic item. Dont have the rules here but like the brew potiin feat gives something like level * alchemy rank = spell levels of potions at every level for example. Worked pretty well, though its mostly been used at levels =<8.
Its a different approach but one that works pretty well ingame and sidesteps both time availability arbitrariness and cheesy moneymaking schemes.
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The gravitas of determining 'what is fun' for your table.
My introduction to gaming was when I was like 8 years old. We played for nearly 12 years using the 2e system, and we played several hours most days of the week. Experience rewards were small and gaining a new level felt epic for the amount of work that was involved.
All of my gamers moved away and now I've joined a new group, and they were thankful to have a new person at the table with gm experience, though mine was only with 2e. I said I'd run a 2e campaign for them. They had a hillarious learning curve discovering the differences between 3.5 and 2e (even things as minor as dex bonus not going to initiative) but the most important critique of my campaign wasn't little rules changes. It was the pacing that I was used to. Journeys from one town to the next were filled with random encounters and took several game days to complete. Travel really felt like travel.
Here's where we ran into trouble. We had a party member who wanted a pet aurumvorax. Being more of a simulationist sandboxer I like making the players choices into adventures so I concocted a huge dwarven mine and the dwarves who worked that mine used an aurumvorax to sniff out deposits. The character was going to try to perhaps get an aurumvorax from the existing one's litter. Colorful storyline. Good stuff.
Just getting from town to the mine was about 6 random encounters and getting down into the mine to talk to the dwarves was also challenging. It took more than 3 full days just to get to the dwarves in the first place which to me was no big deal.
To these 3.5ers it was like 'jeesuz. can't you just give us one. If I thought it was going to be this hard I never would have asked for it in the first place.' These new guys had NO complaints about my campaign at all except how much of a time consuming pain in the a$$ i made it to accomplish their goal. Not that it wasn't fun. Just that it took too much gametime.
The perspective had changed while I was gone. Its true. We can't play 6 days a week for 6 hours a day anymore. A table that likes adventure for the sake of adventure and a journey for the sake of the journey will have no trouble taking the time to go on an epic quest to get what they want. Spending time together on the road with good ale and good friends is all you need. Adult 3.5 players who only game one day a week are less likely to be that kind of patient. To them getting the 'hassle' of getting what they want is fine as long as it doesnt take up valuable game time. They have relegated the aquisition of magic items to the 'small stuff that you shouldnt sweat so we can get our game on instead'
Once you get to that point its no longer a question of 'is your policy about crafting magic items rightgoodfun or wrongbadfun. If the players dont enjoy it its not x-y-fun at all. Sometimes even if you can make the journey to the item fun enough, your players still wont enjoy the fact that they had to take it in the first place when they aren't used to ever having been made to make that journey.
I didn't think you could take 10 on a Craft or Profession check.
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If you're more interested in refining semantics in the hopes your table will enjoy it then...
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1. I like wondrous items the way it is. I agree feat bloat is what made me wary of 3.0-3.75 in the first place. All you're doing here is trying to make it so one cast member can't make everything which plays into 2 and 3.
2. At our table even having fabricate isnt good enough to make a masterwork item (thats not a houserule). You have to have the appropriate craft skill to make the masterwork item first (or go buy it from someone who can) and then use your spellcraft to enchant it. Making non magical masterwork items is a HUGE timesink in a way that magic item crafting cant even come close to. Craft magic arms and armor at our table doesnt mean i bought a brick of steel, said hocus pocus for 8 hours and now its +1 masterwork breastplate. Thats the whole point behind being able to craft on the road. You're not steelsmithing in a forest somewhere. Buy the masterwork breastplate in town ahead of time and then the work you have to do on the road is simply enchanting it. Some tables say the cost of the masterwork item is built into the crafting cost of the magic item, some tables say the cost is separate and distinct...
3. Knowing how to make it and knowing how to use it have no correlation. A guy who knows how to operate the machines that make a car doesnt know how to drive. A guy who knows how to make circuit boards may not be able to make a programmable spreadsheet. A great driver may not know anything about how to make or fix a car or even do routine maintenance. A good functional swordsman may have no idea about proper care of his weapon or smithing. The greatest kings and samurai the world have ever known had their gear crafted by someone else. I'm going to call this myth busted.
4. Cursed items are horrifically powerful. Be glad your party prefers taking 10 instead of spending all their time trying to build cloak of poison, necklace of strangulation, chest boring beetle and...
One successful pin check and suddenly the enemy is wearing a poison cloak and is trying to get the beetle out of his heart while choking to death... And afterwords the party just takes all the cursed items back to use on the next enemy? Belt of bada$$itude is the least of your worries, my friend.
You can't take 10 on these while adventuring as it's considered to be distracting. Also the reason you only net 2 hours for 4 hours of work.
I'm in agreement with you on everything up until this. Do you have a source for that?
Kindly note that if you delete take 10 for making items, then any multi-day item is only going to be made if you can take 1 on the spellcraft check...effectively a -9 to all crafting DC's, as the risk of losing the whole item if you blow a check is too high.
You're better off just increasing the DC's, and enforcing prerequisites.
masterwork items are made, and THEN enchanted. You must have the masterwork first to enchant it, hence the inclusion in the cost.
Being able to make masterwork with Fabricate is not supported or unsupported by the rules. It's a judgement call. I nerf to Fabricate merely replace one day's crafting check, but that's me.
==Aelryinth
Fabricate, or buy, a non masterwork item and then use Masterwork Transformation?
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Exactly. Cost turns out to be the same. So now we're talking about
* no less than 3 spells,
* the craft arms and armor feat,
* enough money to afford to have learned or bought scrolls to do those 3 spells
* the cost of materials
* the time sink of both crafting the item
* and having taken the time to learn all those spells.
* And who's to say that THOSE spells were easy to find?
Even crafting with magic isnt cheap or easy. Definitely not 'quick'. Just "relatively quick" and "relatively easy" the way magic is supposed to be. But not cheap at all. In time or in coin.
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So lets do some accounting and see how the 5 tiers of getting what i want compare
I want my fighter to have a +1 bastard sword.
Me: I'd like to buy a +1 bastard sword for my fighter.
Magicmart: Isle 13. That'll be 2335 Gold pieces! Thank you for shopping at magic mart.
Me: I'd like to buy a +1 bastard sword for my fighter
Crafter and resident mage: If you provide a sword our mage can masterwork it and enchant it and it'll be ready for you by tomorrow.
Otherwise i've got to make the sword myself. That could take up to a week.
So either 8 days or see you tomorrow. 2335 gold pieces. I appreciate your business.
Had to make it to level 5 first
Took craft weapons and armor feat
Never gonna get that feat back.
Crafting for profit would probably pi$$ my gm off so instead I hope the party needs more cheap weapons and armor in the future or else that's the last i'll use of that!
I'd say a local mage let me borrow his spellbook to learn fabricate and masterwork spells but why go easy on us eh? lets say we had to buy the scrolls.
Thats 1125+150+2 hours to understand them. Spellcraft check take 10 so i dont read them wrong... 7 hours to pen them into my spellbook...
Cost of writing into the spellbook is another 290... Wait till tomorrow so i can memorize them. Buy lump of steel for what.... 12gp?
Components for masterwork spell... 300...
At least an hour to make the masterwork sword... Now go shopping for the materials to enchant it. Assuming they're easy to come by thats another 1000gp
And we're ready to go! Day of uninterrupted crafting and take 10 on the spellcraft check and voila! +1 Bastard sword for the low low price of...
2877gp, a feat that regardless of if I plan to abuse it or even use it ever again probably paints a giant red target on my back for arbitrary gm smiting...,
and no less than 18 hours of focused uninterrupted effort! Whee! I knew crafting was the easy way!
I wonder what the rest of my party has been up to...
I'm leaving town tomorrow so i have to craft on the road?
Well we'll have to wait until level 7 then so I can get tiny hut so i can craft at night.
I'd have taken craft ring but the feat I got at 7 is a character feat not a class feat so gm fiat on if i can take craft ring or not.
If not then i've gotta get that sustenance ring at cost. hope its available at magicmart. 2500 gold for that.
Tiny hut was a 3rd level scroll so thats 4 more hours of learning and scribing. 375 for the scroll and 90 to write it down.
Wait a week while the sustenance ring warms up...
Hope no close family members/members of the royal family/important plot devices die horribly while those 7 days pass... GMs are such fickle creatures...
Where was I? Ah yes! Voila! +1 bastard sword for the low low price of
5842, a feat, 7 days of twiddling my fingers after 22 quiet uninterrupted hours of research,scribing, casting... and cheating by using style 1 to get my sustenance ring.
And not taking into any account the time it took me to shop around for any of that stuff.
That sure was easy. Maybe too easy. I'm not sure I can TRULY TRUUULY appreciate that magic item without say... having one or two more arbitrary roadblocks thrown in my way.
Bring it on! Total cost 0! Time invested in aquisition? Whatever makes the gm feel warm and fuzzy on the inside!
When do I get it? Level 1. Level 17. Who knows!
I'm forged in the fires of GM Fiat and thats not just the alliteration talking.
+1 Bastard Sword? What are you trying to do? Break my campaign?
Theres no such thing as a magical sword.
You named your sword excalibur?
Thats kinda pretentious dont you think?
Looks like a plain old bastard sword to me... *sunder*
@Vincent_Takeda: Nice.
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I think some poeple are missing the point of splitting the feats.
If you make it more feats, players would have to invest more in order to be able to craft what they need. Currently the Wizard is a walking magic market with a one feat investment and at this point an Arcane Class takes "Craft Wondrous items" and cam make nearly everything they need.
Meanwhile other classes need multiple feats (non-arcane classes have armor, and are generally more weapon focuses) with non-casters needing additional skill investments on top of the multiple feats.
Ideally what I would like is for every class to be able to get some equipment for a feat an a reasonable skill investment. A fighter with a feat or two and some skill investment can make their own weapons and armor. A wizard with a feat or two investment can make most of the magic items they use.
If you want a class to become a magic mart, in my opinion that should be an investment. What I would like is for each class to become more able to craft what they used (with a feat and skill investment) in exchange for reducing how cheap it is for caster classes in general to become the magic mart.
They would still be better at making items (no skill investment) but they wouldn't be "The" crafters and they wouldn't be able to craft most of the items with a 1 feat investment.
@Vincent - This goes to a far greater debate and discussion. If you don't trust your GM to run a game where the players have a good time, find a new GM.
If you want to decide exactly what you get and control the outcomes, become a GM.
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1. I like this for the most part, and simply splitting it up into slotted and unslotted would at least be a good start, in my opinion (gets a bit messy if you're customizing items, though).
2. Sort of agreed on this, and sort of not. As far as straight up enhancement goes, I definitely feel that is something that would make more sense to relegate to martial characters. Flavor-wise, I understand that it's supposed to be more a matter of enchantment than quality, but I'm personally more inclined to see it as quality. It seems more fitting - a sword made with amazing skill shouldn't top out at being a +1 to attack until magic is applied to it. That seems absurd.
However, special properties on weapons seems much more unusual like that. I'm all for letting a martial character learn how to make a +2 sword, no magic knowledge needed. When they make it burst into fire or holy light or something else is a bit more curious.
Just off the top of my head, seeing Master Craftsman be used for the magic part of it could work though. It would be a bit of a feat tax to add magical benefits, but it seems like that might work. Like I said, just a 'top-of-the-head' thought though.
3. This I disagree with. It's kind of arbitrary. Letting martials craft better equipment without a necessity for caster level will pretty much solve the second issue, and this just limits things otherwise. Just because you don't know how to use a sword to great effect in combat doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to make one.
4. I can understand the reasoning for this, but I'm not a fan of it. Taking 10 is mostly so that you don't mess up terribly when you are doing something. If it is a pretty much routine task, there's no reason to remove the option. The same could be argued for removing it from stealth, flying, or any other type of skill.
That said, this is a relatively minor concern in my opinion. I wouldn't find it that big of a deal to see Take 10 disallowed on crafting, I just also don't see much need for it to be disallowed either. YMMV, of course.
I dunno, those are a few of my thoughts on this at least.
1. That could be a good split point.
2.I don't disagree with you about the special properties, but as I said above, a goal is to make each class better able to make what they use rather than having one class be the store. Particularly a class that can't even effectively test out what they are using, since they aren't proficient.
3. See #2. I don't value having a class be a magic mart with a minimal investment.
4. The issue for me here is largely that it is completely metagame IMHO to know you have no chance of making a cursed item or making a mistake. Why have cursed items in the game at that point? Not to mention this again adds to the magic mart effect when you remove failure chance entirely.
What is wrong with having a game based on chance actually have some random chance to it?
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I think some poeple are missing the point of splitting the feats.
If you make it more feats, players would have to invest more in order to be able to craft what they need. Currently the Wizard is a walking magic market with a one feat investment and at this point an Arcane Class takes "Craft Wondrous items" and cam make nearly everything they need.
Meanwhile other classes need multiple feats (non-arcane classes have armor, and are generally more weapon focuses) with non-casters needing additional skill investments on top of the multiple feats.
And I would totally agree with you if what 'craft wondrous item' meant was I say bibbity boppity belt of physical perfection and poof I had it. Or if 'greater cleave' meant investing a sizeable portion of your wealth and downtime and skillpoints...
What I'm saying is I think anyone who argues the investment in the crafting process is simply 'you took a feat and you're God now lets all go home' is either at a table where bibbity bobbity belt of physical perfection is happening already... in which case nerfing it would be quite a valid concern and conversation,
or you think all the drawbacks of style3 and style4 aren't beating down your crafters enough already compared to the classes that just say oh, a new feat like i get every other level. ho hum. what should I pick. Vital strike? Improved sunder. Gosh. So many choices and barely any noticable drawback to any of them... Its so hard to decide... Gotta keep up with that zen archers flurry of arrows... which I can do ad nauseum ad infinitum to every living thing i meet from one end of town to the other at whim every six seconds... Decisions decisions.
You remember everyone saying the warlock was too powerful because he had like maybe 9 abilities that he could use all day long as much as he wanted?
I suppposed theres a third possibility: You're a PFS player and you think that everyone else should be subjected to that playstyle.
The point of splitting the feats is that you're making something more difficult than it already is and that implies that it isnt annoyingly difficult to execute relative to the penalty free every six seconds doomsday facepunch feats that every other character chooses. I'm not saying thats a bad choice. I'm saying they freely made it like I freely choose crafting as printed despite the terrifying realization that it, like a falling paladin, is entirely subject to GM fiat to determine its level of success and usability. Unlike combat feats.
Another part of the problem is that the skill-rich wizard just needs one skill (Spellcraft) to do everything, whereas the skill-starved fighter needs a separate Craft skill for each type of item (including separate skills for Bows and "Weapons" for some reason, because apparently bows aren't weapons for some reason because screw you fighters). And they need to pay for Master Craftsman separately for each one.
Are we also going to be fixing mundane crafting at the same time? Because the self-sufficient ranger who whittles her own bows is a really basic fantasy archetype, but it's pretty much impossible in Pathfinder, where a tenth-level ranger with 14 Int, Skill Focus (Craft (Bows)), and full ranks in Craft (Bows) takes two months of continuous all-day work in laboratory conditions (and the ranger doesn't have laboratory conditions and can't afford continuous all-day work) to make a mundane +3 Compound Longbow - and it takes even longer (11 weeks) if you remove the ability to Take 10. And god forbid you want to make mithral armor; the crafting time for that is literally measured in years. (Except for ninth-level wizards who can do it in six seconds.)
And god forbid you want to make mithral armor; the crafting time for that is literally measured in years. (Except for ninth-level wizards who can do it in six seconds.)
Now at least there's something that can be done in six seconds like a combat feat. Too bad a 9th level wizard cant do it all day every day once every six seconds like a combat feat.
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If significantly more than half of the possible items are under one feat, than the feat investment is low relative to the benefit.
Your investment of wealth is literally half of the value of the item to everyone else.
And what else were you doing with your "downtime"? That is why they call it "downtime".
And what does any of that have to do with the warlock?
@Roberta Yang - I agree, and as I said I don't understand why the Wizard was made a magic store rather than just making each class able to be self sufficient with a decent feat investment.
Now at least there's something that can be done in six seconds like a combat feat. Too bad a 9th level wizard cant do it all day every day once every six seconds like a combat feat.
You seem to have made a typo somewhere here, because the words you wrote say something nobody could possibly have meant to say.
@Roberta Yang - I agree, and as I said I don't understand why the Wizard was made a magic store rather than just making each class able to be self sufficient with a decent feat investment.
Agreed, just pointing out that mundane crafting needs to be fixed as well as magical crafting.
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If significantly more than half of the possible items are under one feat, than the feat investment is low relative to the benefit.
Clearly we're talking past each other if the leg you're standing on is that taking a single crafting feat means thats all you have to do to be successful at it.
I'm trying to illustrate the opposite. Crafting is more complex and subject to vastly more restrictions and effort and hope against a preexisting panacea of gm fiat on the players part than just 'I took a feat and I'm God, we can all go home now.
Unless your table runs it differently.
Now at least there's something that can be done in six seconds like a combat feat. Too bad a 9th level wizard cant do it all day every day once every six seconds like a combat feat.You seem to have made a typo somewhere here, because the words you wrote say something nobody could possibly have meant to say.
Clearly you are forgetting that the second you show up I like to wax snarky megasarcastic hyperbole because that's your style. I thought we'd been over this.
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If significantly more than half of the possible items are under one feat, than the feat investment is low relative to the benefit.Clearly we're talking past each other if the leg you're standing on is that taking a single crafting feat means thats all you have to do to be successful at it.
I'm trying to illustrate the opposite. Crafting is more complex and subject to vastly more restrictions and effort and hope on the players part than just 'I took a feat and I'm God, we can all go home now.
Unless your table runs it differently.
Or in all of the talk of Warlocks and use of downtime, you are missing the fact that if you take one feat you can make the majority of magic items in the game for half of their cost, because take 10 is still in play.
And what caster doesn't invest in spellcraft?
You are trying to make it sound harder than it is.
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I think i've illustrated pretty clearly above exactly how hard it is. It requires far more investment than a skillcheck and a feat. Dont insinuate that because I dont agree with your point of view means I dont understand it. I'm not missing the point. I'm refuting the point. The tone of your argument speaks of magic item crafting as if a feat and a spellcraft check means i can whip out a staff of the magi each day. Its simply not true. I count no less than 12 hoops I have to jump through to make even the semblance of reliable use of my feat and unlike spellcraft not all of those 12 hoops are 'things that i'd have been doing anyway'. If i'm nice enough to craft items for my party for cost (which i happen to be personally) they're benefitting from my feat and my downtime, my 12 step program for crafting success and the vast amount of days that i have to spend to make what they want. I spent 8 days making goggles. It's not a fast thing.
@Yang I dont disagree that mundane crafting is atrociously slow. Just doesnt happen to be what the thread is about.
Learning a new spell requires a Spellcraft check. Wizards are pretty much required to make at least some investment in Spellcraft, unless they'd prefer to be bad sorcerers.
The DC's to craft Wondrous Items are often low enough that the investment needed to learn new spells is enough to craft.
e: Finding the material components isn't a cost, unless you also consider keeping your spell component pouch regularly stocked a cost to casting in general. New spells are cheap and easy to find. Pretty much all of the "costs" you cite don't actually exist.
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Hi Strawman of Magi.
Oh look, if a Wizard takes 1 feat (which is a bonus feat no less) and makes the same investment in Spellcraft he needs to do anyway he can craft the majority of magic items in the game for half price.
Enlighten me as to your 12 step program, because what I see is for a minimal feat investment and a bit of downtime, most of your items are half price.
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First your wizard needs to stop spending all his downtime drinking so that he has time and money to craft. That's like 12 steps right there.
I would also prefer a style of game that made item creation a bit more epic, but also opened up class-wise to be more flavour-appropriate (warriors crafting swords, rogues crafting roguey items etc).
Unfortunately, I'd have to think really hard to add anything very constructive here, and it's just too late for that kind of brainwork.
I'll get back to you when I have something useful to say.
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See this is what I dont understand. You say the costs I cite dont exist. Now I dont know how your table works, but the materials for crafting? The spell scrolls? The ink to scribe them in my spellbook and the time to study them and scribe them? I actually had to cross those gold piece amounts off my character sheet. That +6 physical perfection belt? It takes 144 game days and 72000gp to make. I had to learn those spells to avoid the +15 dc. I had to spend the +5dc to keep from wasting 8 hours of every day saving my party a little coin. Otherwise thats a dc36 item there boys and girls. Imagine failing that roll. Should be an easy roll with a take 10 by the time our party has 72000gp to flush into a single item... So you're right. Thats a fake drawback. And thats if only one person in the party wants one. Maybe the next guy in the party doesnt want one but wants some other 144000gp item that he should have to stay competitive at this cr... Thats another 4 months of crafting just for him. Now lets talk about the items i need at my level to stay competitive...
If your gm doesnt make you keep track of that stuff then you're right. You're getting off pretty easy. If your gm just lets your party 'retire for 4 months or 3 years and no pressing issues are coming up that make those 4 months or 3 years go by... Just hit the fast forward button then you bet. Those aren't 'real' costs for you and you really are playing the bippity bobbity belt of physical perfection game. Heck maybe scrolls just grow on trees in your game out in your mage's back yard. If your gm let you do that and allowed you to craft for profit then all you have to do is say 'hey gm. my character is going to wait to start being an adventurer for about 5 years. He'll spend the first year crafting for profit and the second year crafting every item i could possibly want. Then we can start the campaign ok? I'll just change my character's age from 17 to 23 and fill up my equipment list with awesome ok? Ever since I got that crafting feat at level 3 I never have to wipe my @$$ ever again because every time I squat in the bushes out pops a robe of the arch magi. I had to craft a sphere of annihilation just to have a place to put all the extra magic items that i'm too weak to carry.
But thats just you. Some of us play it as written and some of us dont have the carnival of downtime that you seem to have. So yeah. Your style of crafting is broken for sure and your style could use some fixin to make it more challenging.
Found a digital writeup of our rules. As said, this is quite a different approach, but you might want to check it.
To us, the issues with crafting has been:
1. It's very uncertain and arbitrary limited by time available. The DM can give hints on how much time will be available, but not only is that spoiling the adventure to some extent, it still can lead to misunderstandings.
2. It's very hard to judge the effect of the feat beforehand, it depends a lot on party composition et cetera. More than most other feats.
3. It messes with WBL. Regardless of how you treat it in respect to WBL (the official way, or half-wbl for crafted items always, or full wbl for everything) it does cause some issues and is in need of constant adjustment.
4. It can in some cases cause issues with other players requesting the crafter's services and there being disagreement on payment/amount of payment. I haven't seen this personally though so it may be more an issue theoretically than in practice.
5. Spellcasters having a practical monopoly on crafting.
6. Craft wondrous items give much more bang for the buck than almost any other crafting feat.
We’ve been developing similar rules for quite some time now, but this is the current incarnation: Magic Item Creation rules
A short explanation on ceremonies/rituals: Basically, cost is 20gp*spell level*caster level, they are use-activated rather than spell completion, come from the cleric/wizard spell list respectively and have a usage time of spell level * spell level hours, and are personally bound to the crafter. Basically, it's a way to cast spells "out of your level" and to allow limited casting for non-casting classes. In a E7 game, it allows high level spells to be cast.
Classes gaining scribe scroll gain magical enscribing instead, brew potion is replaced by mystical alchemy.
As an example, Kim the Wizard gains magical enscribing at level 1 for free, and has put one point into spellcraft and one into profession (scribe). EA is 1, so she gains 1*1=1 crafting point, or 50 gp worth of scrolls of a spell she knows or 25 gp worth of scrolls of a spell she doesn't know.
At 2nd level, assuming continued investment in spellcraft/scribe, she gains 4 crafting points, and 200 gp worth of scrolls.
If she gains mystical alchemy at level 3, and invests in both alchemy and the other things, she gains 450 gp worth of potions and 450 gp worth of scrolls at that level (or half if it's spells she doesn't know).
At level 5, she gains Magical Expertise and takes Sticky Magic as the wizard bonus feat. With 5 ranks each in spellcraft, alchemy, and scribe, her EA is now 2.5+2.5+2.5=7.5, so she gains 37 crafting points (or 1850 gp if prerequisites are met) each to spend on wands/rods/staves, scrolls and potions/oils.
For two feats and two bonus feats and 10 ranks she might not otherwise have gotten, and assuming she used the items she gained at previous levels, she's increased her WBL by up to 50% at this point, but only spendable on a limited set of item types and only that much if she meets all requirements (including being able to cast the spell).