Dwarves are at a disadvantage as Bards compared to other races when it comes to Charisma based spellcasters, with lower save DCs and fewer bonus spells per day, but there is so much rich history with dwarves and song and dance, and I don't see why they NEED to be spellcasters in order for that to work.
So I'm looking to either make a Bard archetype that replace spells with something like Ranger Tricks or to make a Fighter that gains the appropriate Bardic Performances (Inspire Courage, Inspire Heroics, etc.).
The challenge with the former is that Bards are spellcaster from 1st level, and the loss of spellcasting is a lot more significant than a Ranger's.
I don't see how they are at such a disadvantage to warrant an entirely spell-less bard. -2 to Charisma is not, in fact, an insurmountable obstacle, or even a major one. If I were to suggest a replacement for the character ideal, it'd be an urban skirmisher ranger with some custom replacement for favored enemies with something akin to bardic knowledge, but that's not really what this is about...
I think a more-fighty bard would work better than a more-inspirey fighter for this. Maybe even the ability to call on their ancestors to arm them, similar to the ancestor mystery...hm.
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A bard could devise a spell list that has no spells that require saving throws. Think party buffs.
I don't see how they are at such a disadvantage to warrant an entirely spell-less bard. -2 to Charisma is not, in fact, an insurmountable obstacle, or even a major one.
This.
A -1 attribute modifier penalty represents only a 5% change in save probability and one less round of bardic performance. Changes to bonus spells are negligible or nonexistent at the levels most people actually play.
The -2 Charisma is really not as big of a deal for me as I made it sound.
Mostly I would just like a Bard option that replaces spells. Pathfinder doesn't have an archetype for a martial, spell-less character that uses performance. Some Bard archetypes are closer to that, but they are still technically spells.
This product has a spell-less bard.
The best-PF-reviewer-ever's description of it:
The second archetype is the Sophisticate, who gains ride and handle animals as class skills as well as light and medium armor and shield proficiency, In place of spells, these worldly bards gain bonus feats from academic training and their bardic performances count as extraordinary abilities. 6 new performances allow them to counter diplomacy and intimidate checks, help allies see through illusions and aid ALL allies within range with one action. They may also demoralize foes via diplomacy and as a capstone they can destroy reputations with one eloquent speech - all in all, the quintessential renaissance man and a nice, complex archetype that should also find a home in magic-less or low fantasy settings.
Just ditch the spells and give the PC a Full BAB and maybe a bonus feat once every, I dunno, other even level. So, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th. Simple and easy fix.
99 cents? More than worth it.
A light retexturing of the Sophisticate to make it more dwarf-like and less, well... sophisticated would be just what I was looking for.
Just ditch the spells and give the PC a Full BAB and maybe a bonus feat once every, I dunno, other even level. So, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th. Simple and easy fix.
I don't want to change BAB for an archetype, I feel like that's going to far with it. Bonus feats is good though.
Have you looked at the Evangelist cleric archetype? Does basically all you want.
If you're GMing you could even allow it to stack with Crusader to give her bonus feats at the cost of both her domains (but for reals, bonus feats + bardic music is probably worth more).
This product has a spell-less bard.
The best-PF-reviewer-ever's description of it:
The second archetype is the Sophisticate, who gains ride and handle animals as class skills as well as light and medium armor and shield proficiency, In place of spells, these worldly bards gain bonus feats from academic training and their bardic performances count as extraordinary abilities. 6 new performances allow them to counter diplomacy and intimidate checks, help allies see through illusions and aid ALL allies within range with one action. They may also demoralize foes via diplomacy and as a capstone they can destroy reputations with one eloquent speech - all in all, the quintessential renaissance man and a nice, complex archetype that should also find a home in magic-less or low fantasy settings.
Hmmm. Well, you just helped them sell another PDF. I hadn't caught this. I'll have to poke around there other products now... thanks!
Have you looked at the Evangelist cleric archetype? Does basically all you want.
If you're GMing you could even allow it to stack with Crusader to give her bonus feats at the cost of both her domains (but for reals, bonus feats + bardic music is probably worth more).
The Bonus Feats could just be made less frequent. Bonus Combat feats is a good cal I think because it brings us back to the fighter. It's just a matter of how often.
Wait until Saturday! We have a "Warrior poet" class that is a spell-less bard in our "Heroes of the East" book that sports full BAB!
~Red
PS: An interesting simple conversion for dwarves might be to allow them to use a different mental stat in place of Cha? (Like Wis for those long wise skald stories)
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i was working on one similiar to the skirmisher ranger with performance tricks. I never finished it though. I just never finished coming up with new tricks for each performance type. Since no one seemed to be interested I quit playing with it. I called it the
I've been pondering the Bard idea. I think I would keep Inspire Courage, Greatness, Fascinate. Think of the idea of giving brilliant speeches
Skills 8+Int
Improvisation (Acting): Every actor find himself onstage at the wrong time, in the wrong place, missing a prop, or not knowing their lines. A truly good actor always is able to improv his way out of it. The Bard may spend 2 rounds of Bardic Performance when he finds himself flanked and can immediately take a 5 foot step to get out of it.
Skills
Virtuoso’s receive 8+int skills per level
Bardic Performance
The virtuoso gains 4 rounds of Bardic Performance each level, instead of only 2.
Do What You Have to Do
The virtuoso is familiar with doing whatever he has to to survive in the world of show business. He received Improved Dirty Trick as a bonus feat at level 1.
This ability replaces cantrips
Versatile Performer
The virtuoso gains a bonus equal to half his class level on all performance checks. (minimum 1)
This ability replaces Bardic Knowledge
Masterful Performer
The virtuoso has mastered his performance abilities, even beyond those of other professionals. He gains special abilities based off of his performance skills. He gains special abilities each level, that are associated with each performance style. The Virtuoso gains all abilities associated with his performance skills at the levels listed below.
This ability replaces spells.
Level 1
Improvisation (Acting): Every actor find himself onstage at the wrong time, in the wrong place, missing a prop, or not knowing their lines. A truly good actor always is able to improv his way out of it. The Bard may spend 1 round of Bardic Performance as an immediate action, when he finds himself flanked and can immediately take a 5 foot step to get out of it.
Level 4
Gruesome Death (Acting)-When struck in combat you can, as an immediate action, fake a painful death. Opponents must make a sense motive check opposed by your Acting check + Bard Level. If they fail they believe you are dead and will ignore you, until you either stand up or act against them (in which case they are flat footed). This ability costs 2 Bardic Performance Rounds.
Level 7
Scathing Review (General)-You quickly pass judgement on the “performance” of your foe. Your harsh criticism shakes their confidence. On their next d20 roll they gain minus 1 for every two Bard levels you possess. This uses 3 rounds of Bardic Performance. This is a mind-effecting, language dependent ability.
False Betrayal (Acting)-As a standard action, you proclaim yourself to be an ally of your foes. You cry out for assistance. Target must make a sense motive check vs the Virtuoso’s Perform check+1/2 Bard Level. If they fail they must cast their highest level (max level 3) healing or buffing spell on the bard. The Bard gets to select whether it is healing or buffing at the when he makes his perform check. If the target does not have any spells that can be used then the ability is wasted. This uses 3 rounds of Bardic Performance. This is a mind-effecting, language dependent ability.
Level 10
Phone it in (General)-You are so used to performing under pressure that it has become second nature to you. As a swift action you can sacrifice 4 rounds of Bardic Performance to gain another standard action.
False Entrance (Acting)-You look off in the distance, as a standard action, with fear and horror. Make a Performance Check and add half your Bard Level. All foes within 30 ft must make a Sense motive+Will modifier (DC equal to the performance role) or turn and look as well. All who fail are considered flat footed until their next turn.
Level 13
Level 16
Mass Scathing Review (General)-You quickly pass judgement on the “performances” of your foes. Your harsh criticism shakes their confidence. On their next d20 roll they gain minus 1 for every two Bard levels you possess. This abilitiy effects all foes within 30 ft. This uses 6 rounds of Bardic Performance. This is a mind-effecting, language dependent ability.
of course i guess it is still tied to CHA. So that is worthless isnt it :)
Well if anyone was interested in playing it i would be happy to finish it up
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You could always replace spells with something else. At every spell level give the character a very limited range of bonus feats instead (like Skill focus, Extra Performance). It really depends on what kind of bard the player wants to create: is it a natural philosopher? skald? professor? dirtbag? wise old hermit?
May I recommend one of my favorite sets of 3rd party products. The Super Genius Games Archetype line. It allows you to trade out set suites of abilities from any class to get another set of abilities called an arhcetype (this was started by SGG before the APG came out and claimed that word). For the bard, one of the things you can trade is your spell casting.
You can then add any of the archetypes to your bards abilities. This includes the Weapon Champion from martial archetypes to give him a more fightery feel, or chantry from divine archetypes to add yet more bardlike performances (that can be wisdom based) to your options. There are a ton more, like making him a whip specialist with the black-snake or a wushu character with the yuxia. The PDFs for these products are available here on paizo's store and I recommend checking them out.
UM has bard masterpieces you can get by trading spell slots for them, Not all the bards spells are DC necessary, keep your heal spells and such and trade out for some master pieces.
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3PP Cavalier Archetype. It is a pretty good archetype.
Or give them something like Rogue Talents, Ninja Tricks, Skirmisher Abilities, and such.
Or simply give them Bardic Masterpieces.
Sandman is a rogue type bard, if you combine sandman with masterpieces you get a very curious type rogue of very interesting uniqueness...... I would keep going, but I'd be giving away my wife's next build and she'd be grumpy.
Sandman is a rogue type bard, if you combine sandman with masterpieces you get a very curious type rogue of very interesting uniqueness...... I would keep going, but I'd be giving away my wife's next build and she'd be grumpy.
I love it!
Maybe make an Archaeologist who focuses on Masterpieces and spells easily disguised as Performances.
Though I can, strangely, see a Dwarf Blaster Bard who rocks out Heavy Metal Style...
+1 replace Cha casting with Wis casting and replace something with something else.
Or maybe replace Versatile Performance and Spellcasting with something that lets him use Wisdom on all Knowledge checks and Charisma based checks, plus another useful ability. Maybe a new Bardic Performance that grants a Rage analogue in 30 feet (+2 to any attribute maybe, but uses more Performance rounds?). Increase it to 60 feet then 90 feet over time.
Though that bonus might be good enough to replace Inspire Courage.
This is more in the vein of a "fighter with bardic performance powers", but it's what I use for an inspirational marshal-type class. You could easily skin it as more performance-based, though that's not in the class as it's written.
Hmmm... you know, replacing all of his spells with Masterpieces could be an easy one-for-one, but he'd have SO MANY masterpieces by mid level, that's the only thing.
Removing the magic is mostly a flavor desire. Buff spells still work, but I'd like to have a martial bard that inspires his allies with non-magical means.
What about removing spells and combining several existing archetypes?
The Archaeologist is a good start, he's a bit more martial and focused on exploration, and the Rogue talents fit nicely, but Archaeologist's luck would have to go.
What do you mean Archaeologist's Luck? I thought it was Wisdom of the Ancients.
And thanks for the plug Azaelas Fayth.
The Cavalier Archetype is well balanced not something you normally see in a lot of 3PP stuff.
What do you mean Archaeologist's Luck? I thought it was Wisdom of the Ancients.
And thanks for the plug Azaelas Fayth.
Archaeologist's Luck (Ex): Fortune favors the archaeologist. As a swift action, an archaeologist can call on fortune's favor, giving him a +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. Maintaining this bonus is a free action, but it ends immediately if the archaeologist is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round. Archaeologist's luck is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, effects, and the like that affect bardic performance. Like bardic performance, it cannot be maintained at the same time as other performance abilities. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 11th level, and +4 at 17th level.
Thanks, I was happy with the balance of it as well. If I wrote it again, there are a few things I'd change. Namely the Int to Init at level 1. That may be good enough for a wizard or rogue to dip. But, I'm glad it's well received.
The main reason I didn't recommend it earlier was that it's a bit more martially focused, and doesn't really have the knowledge aspects that Big_Lemon seemed to want.
Knowledge is easily taken care of.
Archaeologist's Luck fits the Dwarves from Middle Earth...
I am planning something similar to the Archetype for Fighters or such.
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I don't know if there's enough Masterpieces to take and they tend to be higher levels.
How about letting the character take Masterpieces and the extra alternate performances at certain levels? This alternates would give the character more range to helping their allies and hindering enemies. The bard would still have his usual performances, of course. I would give the character an extra round of performance after level 1.