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How good is an Evoker? (Spoilers!)


Rise of the Runelords

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Okay guys I am currently playing a Ranger in a newly started RotRL campaign. We have just finished the Glassworks and due to some bad tactics my Ranger came close to deaths door, so I figured I had better go ahead and be coming up with a backup just in case the unforseen happens. So how viable, for those who have played this campaign is a Wizard of the Admixture school a solid choice in this campaign? Someone posted in the forums a day or so ago about dipping a level of Sorcerer for Crossblooded and a Tattoo familiar making it sound even more interesting. My party as it stands along with my Human Ranger consists of:

Halfling Cavalier
Human Knife Fighter Rogue
Hedgewitch of an unknown race
Half-Elf Wildcaller Summoner
Human Sorceress

I have also considered a Bard and Magus as backups but I'm not sure how long or how many times the Sorceress will actually show up to play so I figured a backup blaster is never a bad thing. So thoughts and advice on this??


I love playing evokers.

Looking at your lineup, though, I'd probably go with a more combat-oriented character, maybe a magus. They fight well, particularly with a little prep time, and can toss a few blasts if that's what you want.


Cleric or Oracle IMHO.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
KrythePhreak wrote:

Okay guys I am currently playing a Ranger in a newly started RotRL campaign. We have just finished the Glassworks and due to some bad tactics my Ranger came close to deaths door, so I figured I had better go ahead and be coming up with a backup just in case the unforseen happens. So how viable, for those who have played this campaign is a Wizard of the Admixture school a solid choice in this campaign? Someone posted in the forums a day or so ago about dipping a level of Sorcerer for Crossblooded and a Tattoo familiar making it sound even more interesting. My party as it stands along with my Human Ranger consists of:

Halfling Cavalier
Human Knife Fighter Rogue
Hedgewitch of an unknown race
Half-Elf Wildcaller Summoner
Human Sorceress

I have also considered a Bard and Magus as backups but I'm not sure how long or how many times the Sorceress will actually show up to play so I figured a backup blaster is never a bad thing. So thoughts and advice on this??

What kind of Sorceress is your teammate? That could make a pretty dramatic swing regarding what might best compliment the party.

Personally, I've been playing around with Wizard builds and have completely fallen in love with the Void Mage. Some truly wicked tricks there. I'd be happy to help you with the build if you like...

...as for the blaster you seem to be thinking about making, the 1st level Cross-Blooded Orc & Dragon Sorcerer / 19th level Admixture Evocationist is definitely a good (if kinda cheesy) way to deal damage... but damage won't be what your group needs most from you more than likely. That kind of character can be a lot of fun, but sometimes I worry that people playing it are missing the true potential of a Wizard.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Wiggz wrote:
KrythePhreak wrote:

Okay guys I am currently playing a Ranger in a newly started RotRL campaign. We have just finished the Glassworks and due to some bad tactics my Ranger came close to deaths door, so I figured I had better go ahead and be coming up with a backup just in case the unforseen happens. So how viable, for those who have played this campaign is a Wizard of the Admixture school a solid choice in this campaign? Someone posted in the forums a day or so ago about dipping a level of Sorcerer for Crossblooded and a Tattoo familiar making it sound even more interesting. My party as it stands along with my Human Ranger consists of:

Halfling Cavalier
Human Knife Fighter Rogue
Hedgewitch of an unknown race
Half-Elf Wildcaller Summoner
Human Sorceress

I have also considered a Bard and Magus as backups but I'm not sure how long or how many times the Sorceress will actually show up to play so I figured a backup blaster is never a bad thing. So thoughts and advice on this??

What kind of Sorceress is your teammate? That could make a pretty dramatic swing regarding what might best compliment the party.

Personally, I've been playing around with Wizard builds and have completely fallen in love with the Void Mage. Some truly wicked tricks there. I'd be happy to help you with the build if you like...

...as for the blaster you seem to be thinking about making, the 1st level Cross-Blooded Orc & Dragon Sorcerer / 19th level Admixture Evocationist is definitely a good (if kinda cheesy) way to deal damage... but damage won't be what your group needs most from you more than likely. That kind of character can be a lot of fun, but sometimes I worry that people playing it are missing the true potential of a Wizard.

Oh wow I have never looked into the Void Mage until now and I must say those buff/debuff skills are absolutely fantastic. Its a full caster with some bard moves. So now you have me intrigued just a bit so yes show me what kind of build and ideas you have with this school of magic =D


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

EDIT: Note. The spoiler tags are actually there to hide the wall of text, not actual in-game spoilers. There are no plot spoilers in this post.

I've been GMing Rise of the Runelords for my group for almost a year now. We just finished the 3rd module (though I've read the entirety of the AP). I also happen to be playing a mid-level Evoker in a different game. So I actually think I'm ideally suited to answer this question.

My build (in brief) is as follows:

Spoiler:

Gnome Evoker (Admixture) 5 / Bloatmage 4

Gnome Racial Trait: Pyromaniac - adds +1 to CL for all spells with [fire] descriptor.

Traits: Magical Lineage (Fireball) - allows the casting of Fireball with metamagic feats as though a level lower.

Feats:
Spell Focus (Evocation)* - adds +1 to DC of Evocation spells
Bloatmage Initiate - adds +1 to CL for Evocation spells
Varisian Tattoo - adds +1 to CL for Evocation spells
Rime Spell - cold spells you cast apply Entangled condition
Toppling Spell - force spells you case can trip enemies
Heighten Spell - allows for casting of lower level spells as though they were higher level
Preferred Spell (Fireball) - Allows the casting of Fireball by expending any spell slot of 3rd level or higher.

*My GM let me substitute this in for Scribe Scroll.

Class Features:
Versatile Evocation - allows the changing of acid, cold, electricity, or fire in an Evocation spell
Blood Pool - basically pearls of power. Adds versatility in spell casting.

Gear that you'll want is pretty typical for a Wizard. Pick up Metamagic Rods of Silent Spell, Extend Spell, and Empower Spell (there's no such thing as overkill).

So what can it do?

Spoiler:

Fireball will be your go-to spell most times. Burning Arc and Scorching Ray are also solid work horses. Magic Missile also does very well with this build.

Any Evocation spell is cast at +2 Caster Level. Any Fire spell is cast at +1 CL. These bonuses stack. So you get two 4d6 Scorching Rays at 4th level and a 8d6 Fireball at 5th level. At that level, it's the equivalent of bringing a hand grenade to a snowball fight.

Versatile Evocation + Rime Spell allows you to change any of your [fire] evocation spells into [cold] spells and apply the Entangled debuff. Your targets do not get a save to resist the condition. I cannot stress that enough.

Toppling Spell turns your Magic Missile, a lack luster spell at mid levels into a great battlefield control. Are your front liners surrounded? Not anymore. Now their foes are prone.

Preferred Spell is great, you can take it as early as 5th level. In my build I chose not to take this until 9th level when I actually had higher level spells to burn. Basically lets you spontaneously cast Fireball. At 9th level (with Int 22), I had the option of casting 19 Fireballs in a single day. That's 190d6 in convenient 10d6 packaging. Take that Sorcerer!

Each of those Fireballs could also Entangle my opponents caught in them. The Bloatmage's Blood Pool class feature meant that I didn't have to worry about actually worry about memorizing multiples of the same spell. So I could diversify my selection every and then choose to burn a spell that I didn't need in order to blast something.

Build Pros and Cons:

Spoiler:

Pros:
-You have big guns. Your multi-target (area of effect) DPR is huge. You are basically the mook-killer. Any mook that can survive a 10d6 fireball sure has heck ain't gonna survive another. And even if they do, you have probably have more Fireballs than they have hp remaning.
-Metamagic feat selection can turn you into a mostly viable controller.
-Versatile Evocation gives you options against things with fire resistance.
-Blood Pool means that you don't have to devote multiple spell slots to a single spell if you want it more than once in a day.

Cons:
-You don't get access to Selective Spell until 10th level. Your allies may suffer the consequences. Communal (Resist/Protection from) Energy is your friend here.
-Your single target DPR is okay at best. You will never out DPR the Archer or Rogue against a single foe.
You are still a Wizard. Meaning that your HP, Fort/Dex saves, and general survivability is quite low. Furthermore because you've specialized in blasting you can't benefit from Invisibility the way that Conjuration Wizards can. Mirror Image and intelligent tactical awareness are your keys to surviving.
-Evocation spells tend not to take prisoners. If your party wants to capture something alive, you won't be able to do much.
-As a Bloatmage you won't automatically learn 2 new spells every level like you would have as a wizard.
-As a Gnome Bloatmage you will find your base movement speed reduced is eventually reduced to 5ft/rd.

As it pertains to Rise of the Runelords:

Spoiler:

There are plenty of mooks to kill across all six modules of this AP. You will find yourself doing well against most non-boss fights, provided that your party doesn't get caught in your AoE. Even then, like I mentioned above, it may not matter if you've warded them with Resist Energy or similar.

Boss fights could get tricky for you. Like I said your single target damage is mediocre and most bosses in the adventure tend to be solo-ish encounters with high hp and good saves.

Since you've specialized in DPR, you won't be as an effective buffer and your party will probably need to take up the slack. This shouldn't be a problem given that you have both a Paladin and a Hedgewitch.

Hope this was helpful and not too large a wall of text. I tried to keep as much GM-only stuff out as possible. Good luck with the rest of AP (you'll need it).


Evokers can be really fun, and wizards are definitely well-off in this campaign, but from your party members there are three main things to consider:

What does the Sorceress do? Will another blaster be more of the same alongside her, or does she focus on something else, allowing you to bring something new to the party with your blasting?

What does the Witch do? A lot of witches are capable of handling party healing with little to no effort, but not all witches will necessarily do that. On the off chance that your group's witch does not heal, you might find someone who can do so to be more useful than another who can't. (Also, if the witch happens to be a blaster, will you be more of the same alongside them?)

How is the party at melee (assuming your current ranger is not present)? A rogue with light weapons doesn't, potentially a halfling cavalier, and potentially a wildcaller's eidolon doesn't sound impressive, but there may be added melee in there that classes alone don't indicate. Again, if your party lacks good melee, you might find someone who can do that to be more useful than someone who can't.

If none of the above matches with your party, blast away! If there are conflicts or things that would really help the group, namely melee and or healing, I might go with a nice melee cleric, personally. For the sake of the team.

However if despite that you still want to play an evoker, blast away! RotRl will favour you, especially as you move further and further forwards.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thanks alot everyone, your suggestions are much appreciated and I really liked that breakdown Mortis. Hopefully my Ranger will not kick the bucket but if she does then you all have left me with some nice suggestions. But this does not mean this thread should stop so lets keep it growing even more =D


i noticed the lack of effective primary healers, and the only combatants appear to be the eidolon and the cavalier. unless the mount is fighting as a seperate warrior.

my recommendations include

a full divine caster who can do some melee and provide reasonable spontaneous healing. a martially oriented cleric or oracle works best, though a druid can provide alternate methods of HP control in the form of spontaneous summons.

a half orc scarred witch doctor with the prehensile hair hex and the healing patron. your hair deals damage based upon constitution and if you attack with it exclusively. it becomes a primary weapon dealing 1.5 times your constitution bonus. your hair increases the reach of your cures.

a wizard or sorcerer who abuses infernal healing out of combat, can still be an evoker if you wish, just remember that wands of infernal healing cost 750GP apiece for a 50 charge wand. summons make great HP sponges.

a 3/4 bab 3/4 caster with access to cure spells, or infernal healing. the magus provides the blasts you seek, and has access to infernal healing which is sweet out of combat. while the bard and inquisitor offer cure spells.

a martial who can use wands of 1st level healing spells. paladins and rangers. you deal damage in combat, and heal out of combat. in fact, the paladin offers better condition removal and the ranger offers better skills.

Qadira

Is any one element (acid, cold electricity, fire) severely gimped in RotRLs? I'm not looking to meta game the AP but I would hate to specialize in fire if every other encounter has fire elementals.


eldergod0515 wrote:
Is any one element (acid, cold electricity, fire) severely gimped in RotRLs? I'm not looking to meta game the AP but I would hate to specialize in fire if every other encounter has fire elementals.

there aren't many elementals, but i will tell the notable foes i remember

1.

Spoiler:

  • a bunch of goblins
  • some overleveled poorly made XP bag NPCS with lousy gear
  • goblin dogs
  • a sleeping greater barghest
  • a bunch of pint sized, annoying, flying, invisible evil outsiders with at will ranged attacks that force you to waste spells

2.

Spoiler:

  • a bunch of ghouls
  • a bunch of class leveled ghouls
  • a shadow
  • an overpowered Lamia that will cause a TPK on her own
  • a bunch of human murderers
  • a high level judge
  • an oversized construct you have no reliable means of harming short of adamantine blanched arrows

3.

Spoiler:

  • a bunch of giants
  • another even more overpowered Lamia
  • a bunch of animals
  • some evil outsiders mixed here and there
  • a handful of wizards who overcome their flaws by means of race, template or gear in a way that abuses the letter of the CR system

4.

Spoiler:

  • a bunch of giants
  • a handful of evil outsiders
  • a handful of PC classed giants
  • handful of wizards that are better at melee than your dedicated fighter
  • some evil fairies

5.

Spoiler:

  • a bunch of giants that have a mountain of supernatural powers
  • a bunch of overpowered wizards whom also, outshine your fighter
  • a succubus
  • an old man with dementia
  • some freely lootable places
  • a bunch of giants with wizard levels and a bunch of supernatural powers

6.

Spoiler:

  • a bunch of evil aligned outsiders of various sorts
  • stronger versions of the class leveled super giants from book 5
  • wizards who somehow outshine synthesists in melee
  • skulks with class levels
  • a dragon or few
  • a living god among wizards with better defenses than the terrasque, whom can cause a TPK on his own.


because of the dominant type of giant (Rune Giant), i don't recommend focusing on energy damage, they are either immune to or highly resistant to all 4 of the main types.

Qadira

Thanks Lumiere!

I'm set on playing a crossblooded primal elemental/dragon tattooed sorcerer 1 / wizard/Evoker - Admixture Specialist X. I've got to decide the primal elemental/dragon energy types and wanted to be sure I don't make the least optimal decision from the start. We probably won't make it to the rune giants - this will be the third AP in our group we've started but we haven't reached module #3 on the others yet.

It doesn't sound like any one element will be that much worse off than the rest. That's what I was looking for :-)


eldergod0515 wrote:

Thanks Lumiere!

I'm set on playing a crossblooded primal elemental/dragon tattooed sorcerer 1 / wizard/Evoker - Admixture Specialist X. I've got to decide the primal elemental/dragon energy types and wanted to be sure I don't make the least optimal decision from the start. We probably won't make it to the rune giants - this will be the third AP in our group we've started but we haven't reached module #3 on the others yet.

It doesn't sound like any one element will be that much worse off than the rest. That's what I was looking for :-)

the Rune Giants are Immune to Fire and Electricity, but have massive resistance to the other two. those come as early as book 4.

the wizards all seem to have time to prebuff with resist energy whatever the hell they want

but if you don't plan on surviving to book 3. use any energy type you please.

if you wish to deal elemental damage

i recommend asking if your DM will allow the Psion from Dreamscarred Press Psionics unleashed.

not as much damage, but more flexible in the type they deal.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Rune Giants often aren't fighting alone in large groups. So you would be able to take out its allies and let your heavy hitters eliminate the Rune Giant. Besides, the fun of the game isn't min/maxing it. It's creating an interesting character.

That said? Go for Eldritch Warrior. You've a couple levels of Ranger. Just need to get five levels of Wizard and you're set.


Tangent101 wrote:

Rune Giants often aren't fighting alone in large groups. So you would be able to take out its allies and let your heavy hitters eliminate the Rune Giant. Besides, the fun of the game isn't min/maxing it. It's creating an interesting character.

That said? Go for Eldritch Warrior. You've a couple levels of Ranger. Just need to get five levels of Wizard and you're set.

the Rune Giants if i remember correctly, show up as early as books 3-4, and happen to be in plural numbers, even then.

it's not just them, but when an encounter includes 3 Rune giants, before factoring other foes, you need to protect your heavy hitters with stuff like buffs, powerful heals, and the like


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:

Rune Giants often aren't fighting alone in large groups. So you would be able to take out its allies and let your heavy hitters eliminate the Rune Giant. Besides, the fun of the game isn't min/maxing it. It's creating an interesting character.

That said? Go for Eldritch Warrior. You've a couple levels of Ranger. Just need to get five levels of Wizard and you're set.

the Rune Giants if i remember correctly, show up as early as books 3-4, and happen to be in plural numbers, even then.

it's not just them, but when an encounter includes 3 Rune giants, before factoring other foes, you need to protect your heavy hitters with stuff like buffs, powerful heals, and the like

if their were rune giants in your campaign before the middle of book six thats your GM doing that. hill giants, ogres and stone giants aplenty but no rune giants. considering they are a CR17 monster seems like he really shafted you with giants (or you had a large party)

just for fun i went back and checked and there are less then a handful of rune giants in entire book six


You might want to put some spoiler tags, Lumiere.

As for the Rune Giants:

Spoiler:

They don't appear until book 6. The only one you see before is the mummified rune giant general Gargadros at Hook Mountain.

Oh, and you never encounter more than one rune giant at a time.


Rune Giants.:

We had 15 PCs on original RotRL in 3.5 with 40 point buy before factoring 15 cohorts. plus i remember facing a bunch of Rune Giants by book 3.


ah, so you ran it with Demigods, your choice.


captain yesterday wrote:
ah, so you ran it with Demigods, your choice.

40 points on the 3.5 point chart, we had open access to 3.5 material though. everybody got 1 free 18 in their build's primary offensive stat with DM approval.

we quickly learned not to build 3.5 Uberchargers, Bo9S classes. and Psionics because those 3 things, lead to a lot of TPKs for the following reasons

the 3.5 Uberchargers, who could deal hundreds of DPR by level 6 with the help of flaws, had the downside of having such poor AC, that they soaked up such massive amounts of damage, that we expended great amounts of resources healing them between fights. the resources spent on healing, were cutting heavily into our treasure budget.

Psionics, blew through power points left and right. their downside, was that they lacked sufficient power points to be effective, and overall, lacked the ability to utilize far more practical arcane resources.

Martial Adepts. had options derived from manuevers, but the recovery methods were difficult to achieve, and ranged full attacks were still the superior option, because it took out the foes before they could reach us.

those who weren't originally dedicated archers, had to learn to consider ranged as a secondary option after dying a few times.

when you have 5 melee cohorts and 12 miscellaneous pets soaking up the damage of 15 foes, it gives an opening for ranged overkill.

in fact, we all loved our Giant Bane Composite Longbows and lesser Bracers of Archery very much.


15 people is a lot to plan encounters for, i've never used 3.5 point system and i only have a basic understanding of the pathfinder system (even then i'd need it in front of me) i just know 20 point buy is used for PFS games and the APs assume a 15 point buy so 40 seemed a lot to me. sorry if i sounded snarky


captain yesterday wrote:
15 people is a lot to plan encounters for, i've never used 3.5 point system and i only have a basic understanding of the pathfinder system (even then i'd need it in front of me) i just know 20 point buy is used for PFS games and the APs assume a 15 point buy so 40 seemed a lot to me. sorry if i sounded snarky

3.5

attributes started at 8, you had to buy your 9s and 10s, and the cost bumps were on the odd numbers, not the even ones.

3.5 Point Chart:

8 Free
9 1 Point
10 2 Points
11 3 Points
12 4 Points
13 5 Points
14 6 Points
15 8 Points
16 10 Points
17 13 Points
18 16 Points

no rules for buying downward

your standard 3.5 game built the elite array on 25 points, 10 more than pathfinder's 15, 32 was on par with an 18-23ishish point buy, and 40 was closer to a 25-28ish point buy


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And really, it's no different than doing, say, 2d6+6, which is one of the official methods of character generation. Lucky die-rolls can result in someone legitimately having a character who'd be a 50-point build. I say this as I legitimately saw one rolled up on 4d6. (Interestingly, rather than spend her +2 points for being Human to boost her 17 to a 19, she increased a 15 to a 17. (She rolled 17, 16, 16, 15, 15, 14))

Of course, the benefit of rolled stats is you don't have as much optimization of characters. I'm ambivalent on this... because while I like the equality of the stats that are generated, building your character like this does promote a power-gamer mindset of getting things "perfect."


Tangent101 wrote:

And really, it's no different than doing, say, 2d6+6, which is one of the official methods of character generation. Lucky die-rolls can result in someone legitimately having a character who'd be a 50-point build. I say this as I legitimately saw one rolled up on 4d6. (Interestingly, rather than spend her +2 points for being Human to boost her 17 to a 19, she increased a 15 to a 17. (She rolled 17, 16, 16, 15, 15, 14))

Of course, the benefit of rolled stats is you don't have as much optimization of characters. I'm ambivalent on this... because while I like the equality of the stats that are generated, building your character like this does promote a power-gamer mindset of getting things "perfect."

my plushie bard's 3.5 rolls in my weekday game

18
17
16
15
15
13

57 point buy in PF

58 point buy in 3.5

stats after modifiers

Str 11 (15-4)
Dex 20 (17+1+2)
Con N/A (ignore the 13, use d12s for HD)
Int 18 (18+0)
Wis 13 (15-2)
Cha 18 (16+2)

normally, i wouldn't play such an underpowered race, but tuesday tony uses the following stat generation

roll 4d6
reroll 1s
drop the lowest
reroll if the total result is below 10
if you roll 4 6s, you may carry the 4th 6 to your next set, replacing the lowest die after these steps
roll 9 eligible sets
take the highest 6 sets
arrange as desired

for hit die, use half max sides +1 for every level at first, constructs, undead, and creatures without constitution scores, use d12s for hit dice, regardless of class.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And I can hear the cries of "overpowered" already.

Here's the thing to remember: this is supposed to be a fun game.

If people have fun playing characters with higher-than-"purchased"-stats then why complain about it?

As a GM, I'm increasing the hit point and CR (the latter because I started everyone off at 2nd level) of my encounters - not because the players are overpowered so much as in the Half-Orc Barbarian started out with a 19 Strength (quite doable with a point build) and at 4th level pushed it to a 20. (And her character isn't a power-gamer as she took the Thassilon Scholar feat and has her character wearing glasses outside of combat - literally her character is a "scholarly barbarian" who has proven absolutely delightful to watch.)

Her character can tear through quite a few encounters. Without his (she's playing a male character) strength, the group would have a much more difficult time with fights (as I noticed when the Skaverling paralyzed the barbarian early in combat - the upgraded Skaverling proved a difficult fight for the remaining four which included a thief/wizard, a bard/cleric, a ranger/wizard, and a sorceress).

If the character had been done on a 15-point build, he could still easily have that 20 strength by now and still be tearing through fights. And as the GM, it's perfectly allowable to adjust hit points on the fly. In another game I noticed my players (none of whom had magical weapons) were having a devil of a time against a Revenant and ended up lowering its hit points a tad because the game was getting repetitive and uninteresting. And in other instances I've upped hit points on the fly because a character was mowing through stuff like a scythe through wheat at harvest time and making the encounter uninteresting.


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

i think you shouldn't be giving advice to others about the AP if you didn't play the AP as writen. Is quite obvious that with 15 players, your GM changed a lot of things. That hou faced rune giants by groups in book 3 is of no help for the OP question.

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