I've seen a lot of rules for archetypes designed to allow Summoners to summon multiple Eidolons. They all have a lot of rules in common and seem to be pretty balanced, but I never see any reviews with them. So I've decided to take a crack at it myself:
Multiple Eidolons
The Summoner can have multiple Eidolons. This ability functions the same as the vanilla Summoner save for the following:
*The Summoner starts out with 1 or 2 Eidolons and gains an additional one at level 4, 8, 12, and 16.
*The Eidolons share an HP pool, using the lowest Constitution score as the modifier.
*Each Eidolon has their own Evolution Pool, but once selected, their Evolutions can't be changed by anything short of divine intervention. They also gain their own feats and other stats.
*Only one Eidolon can be out at a time, but the Summoner can switch Eidolons as a full-found action.
*If an attack reduces Eidolons' HP to -(10 + Summoner level/2), the Eidolon that was out is permanently destroyed. That Eidolon can be replaced after a 30 day period or the Summoner gains a level. The replacement Eidolon has no memories of the Summoner, even if they're completely identical to the deceased Eidolon. The Eidolon can also be destroyed to resurrect the Summoner should the latter be killed.
This replaces the Summoner's ability to summon monsters, aspect, and greater aspect.
Defend Master
This ability functions as the Shield Ally & Greater Shield Ally abilities, except that they only affect the Summoner, and the bonus is increased by 1.
This ability alters Shield Ally and Greater Shield Ally.
Dual Summon
At Lv. 20 the Summoner can have two Eidolons out simultaneously. Both Eidolons still share HP, and as long as both are out, they constantly lose 1 HP per round. If one Eidolon is killed, both are destroyed. The same rules for replacing both Eidolons apply, but the wait period is 70 days.
I mean I know they're not identical but there're some striking similarities.
I wanted to create an archetype similar to the Summoner class from games like Final Fantasy and the Tales series. The summoner with an Eidolon for a different purpose and all that jazz.
I'll be honest actually, this seems kinda cool. I'm pretty confident I like the idea more than the broodmaster.
I'm not sure what to make of the health pool... I don't exactly like it being based on the lowest constitution mod. This keeps you from having a tank being an awesome tank if you've got a skill monkey that isn't nearly as high. I might think it makes more sense to use the highest instead. If they're sharing health, I feel it makes more sense for a weaker one to be a bit more hardy if you've got a strong one, more than a strong one seeming weaker because of a weaker eidolon (if that sentence made sense).
As for switching them, it's nice, but a full round action is probably too short. A full round might do. 2 rounds might be better. It shouldn't be extremely easy to switch them in combat, but it also shouldn't be impossible, so I don't know. Having this scale by level might be worthwhile too. You can spend two rounds to switch at first level and it gets shortened a bit as you get stronger.
Finally, I'm not sure I like that if they get killed they get total killed. Being unable to summon for 24 hours would be a fine penalty in my opinion, but YMMV on that. I also don't think I like the resurrection deal at the end there.
Those are just a few of my thoughts though. Anyway, I definitely like the idea. It looks pretty cool.
Multi-Eidolon Summoner (V2)
I'm actually surprised I got feedback on this. Thanks! Italicized parts are ones that I really need help with.
Multiple Eidolons
The Summoner can have multiple Eidolons. This ability functions the same as the vanilla Summoner save for the following:
*The Summoner starts out with 1 or 2 Eidolons and gains an additional one at level 4, 8, 12, and 16.
*How many Eidolons would be a good starting number? Some similar ideas used 2, but I think that's a bit much.
*The Eidolons share an HP pool, using the highest Constitution score as the modifier.
*Each Eidolon has their own Evolution Pool, but once selected, their Evolutions can't be changed by anything short of divine intervention. They also gain their own feats and other stats. Eidolons gain less EP:
*Wanted to give players enough EP to actually make their Eidolons distinct before I started limiting their pool.
*The Summoner can only have 1 Eidolon as their "active Eidolon". This the Eidolon that is summoned, and you can't just dismiss it and summon another one. To change the active Eidolon, the summoner requires 2 rounds of uninterrupted concentration. At Lv. 12, this is reduced 1 round. At Lv. 16, it's reduced to a full round action.
This replaces the Summoner's ability to summon monsters, aspect, and greater aspect.
Defend Master
This ability functions as the Shield Ally & Greater Shield Ally abilities, except that they only affect the Summoner, and the bonus is increased by 1.
This ability alters Shield Ally and Greater Shield Ally.
Dual Summon
At Lv. 20 the Summoner can have two Eidolons out simultaneously. Both Eidolons still share HP, and as long as both are out, they constantly lose 1 HP per round. If one Eidolon is killed, both are destroyed. The same rules for replacing both Eidolons apply, but the wait period is 70 days.
*Each Eidolon has their own Evolution Pool, but once selected, their Evolutions can't be changed by anything short of divine intervention. They also gain their own feats and other stats. Eidolons gain less EP:
Lv. (EP)
1 (3)
2 (4)
3 (5)
4 (7)
5 (8)
snip
Not being able to change EP means that you can only spend what you gain each level. Which is usually one. Is it your intent to lock out 2, 3, and 4 point evolutions?
I like the general idea of a "right eidolon for the right job", but you go to an awful lot of trouble to insure that doesn't happen. And in the meantime, the summoner can't rely upon monster summons because that is just *poof* gone. This is a problem if the eidolon dies because you can a) defend yourself with buff spells or b) spend 1 minute summoning eidolon B.
Also a normal summoner can change EP every level up, (an evolutionist) can do it more frequently. And add EP with the evolution spells.
Again, I like the idea, but I don't see it happening here.
*Each Eidolon has their own Evolution Pool, but once selected, their Evolutions can't be changed by anything short of divine intervention. They also gain their own feats and other stats. Eidolons gain less EP:
Lv. (EP)
1 (3)
2 (4)
3 (5)
4 (7)
5 (8)
snip
Not being able to change EP means that you can only spend what you gain each level. Which is usually one. Is it your intent to lock out 2, 3, and 4 point evolutions?
I like the general idea of a "right eidolon for the right job", but you go to an awful lot of trouble to insure that doesn't happen. And in the meantime, the summoner can't rely upon monster summons because that is just *poof* gone. This is a problem if the eidolon dies because you can a) defend yourself with buff spells or b) spend 1 minute summoning eidolon B.
Also a normal summoner can change EP every level up, (an evolutionist) can do it more frequently. And add EP with the evolution spells.
Again, I like the idea, but I don't see it happening here.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. My DM house rules the option of storing things like skill ranks, feats, and EP until we know what we want to do with them. Thank you for reminding me.
You make a good point with the summon monster ability too. I should probably just limit the level of "summon monster" spells they can use rather than getting rid of them outright.
You make a good point with the summon monster ability too. I should probably just limit the level of "summon monster" spells they can use rather than getting rid of them outright.
That sounds like it would work. Something like "the summoner is considered to be 2 levels lower with respect to the summon monster sp"
Also, I would allow more than 1 eidolon out. This would allow flanking (and a sneak attack evolution). Plus some interesting tactics with transpostion.
Ideas - hivemind evolution or ability, allow eidolons with swallow whole to eat the others and gain thier remaining hit points. (this wouldn't count as destruction)
You make a good point with the summon monster ability too. I should probably just limit the level of "summon monster" spells they can use rather than getting rid of them outright.
That sounds like it would work. Something like "the summoner is considered to be 2 levels lower with respect to the summon monster sp"
Also, I would allow more than 1 eidolon out. This would allow flanking (and a sneak attack evolution). Plus some interesting tactics with transpostion.
Ideas - hivemind evolution or ability, allow eidolons with swallow whole to eat the others and gain thier remaining hit points. (this wouldn't count as destruction)
Interesting! The only problem with getting multiple Eidolons out is what level it should be gained at. For two Eidolons out at once, I think no earlier than Lv. 10, and I'll have the Lv. 20 capstone be having three Eidolons out.
As for the Hivemind thing, I thought summoners and their Eidolons could mentally communicate. Or are you referring to something else when you say "hivemind"?
I'll be honest actually, this seems kinda cool. I'm pretty confident I like the idea more than the broodmaster.
Who wouldn't it's like a munchkin powergamer's dream. Quite seriously the swap eidolons as an action reminds me of nothing more than the new Pet Battles feature of World of Warcraft.
So yes, the Summoner isn't a broken enough class already, that it needed this kind of power up?
Brilliant concept. Darkwolf117, Abraham Spalding and Terrible Zodin have given some great edits and tweaks/refinements in their feedback. Can't wait to see v.3. Nice work so far, Disgaean!
I really like the idea of ripping out two lesser eidolons for the flanking fun as mentioned, and the different eidolons for different jobs is so cool, however reminiscent of a current MMORPG motif it might be.
*I'm not 100% clear on the hp pool. In fact I'm not clear on it at all. An example might help this ol' wolfgnard.
*I'd like to see the stricture against changing evo's lifted. Seems heavy handed and ironically against the theme of versatility through variation.
*I think a longer "switch eidolon" time is preferable otherwise it would be crazy. A full round action is okay, but 2 might be better.
Brilliant concept. Darkwolf117, Abraham Spalding and Terrible Zodin have given some great edits and tweaks/refinements in their feedback. Can't wait to see v.3. Nice work so far, Disgaean!
I really like the idea of ripping out two lesser eidolons for the flanking fun as mentioned, and the different eidolons for different jobs is so cool, however reminiscent of a current MMORPG motif it might be.
*I'm not 100% clear on the hp pool. In fact I'm not clear on it at all. An example might help this ol' wolfgnard.
*I'd like to see the stricture against changing evo's lifted. Seems heavy handed and ironically against the theme of versatility through variation.
*I think a longer "switch eidolon" time is preferable otherwise it would be crazy. A full round action is okay, but 2 might be better.
Did you look at the most recent version(s)? I'm constantly updating it. The Eidolon HP Pool (E-HP) is shared between the Eidolons. It develops normally, but the CON modifier used is the highest one of the group. If you had three Eidolons with CON scores of 14(2), 15(2), and 18, you'd use the 18(4).
Multi-Eidolon Summoner (V3)
And here it is, the third version of the archetype. Now with some new evolutions.
Multiple Eidolons
The Summoner can have multiple Eidolons. This ability functions the same as the vanilla Summoner save for the following:
*The Summoner starts out with 1 or 2 Eidolons and gains an additional one at level 4, 8, 12, and 16.
*How many Eidolons would be a good starting number? Some similar ideas used 2, but I think that's a bit much.
*The Eidolons share an HP pool, using the highest Constitution score as the modifier. When this pool is depleted, the Summoner loses her ability to summon her Eidolons for 24 hours.
*Each Eidolon has their own Evolution Pool. They also gain their own feats and other stats. Eidolons gain less EP:
*The Summoner can only be merged with one Eidolon at a time.
*The Summoner can only have 1 Eidolon as their "active Eidolon". This is the Eidolon that is summoned, and you can't just dismiss it and summon another one. To change the active Eidolon, the summoner requires 2 rounds of uninterrupted concentration. At Lv. 12, this is reduced 1 round. At Lv. 16, it's reduced to a full round action.
This replaces aspect and greater aspect.
Summon Monster
This functions as the normal summoner ability, but the summoner may only go as high as Summon Monster VII.
Defend Master
This ability functions as the Shield Ally & Greater Shield Ally abilities, except that they only affect the Summoner, and the bonus is increased by 1.
This ability replaces Shield Ally and Greater Shield Ally.
Multiple Summon
At Lv. 10 the Summoner can have two Eidolons out simultaneously. Both Eidolons still share HP, and if the pool runs out, both are banished.
At Lv. 20, the Summoner can have three Eidolons at once. The summoner must dismiss all Eidolons at once.
This ability replaces twin Eidolon.
New Evolutions
Sneak Attack (3 EP)
Functions as rogue ability of the same name. Must be level 5 to take this Evolution. Can be taken up to six times to increase damage.
Consume Life (4 EP)
The Eidolon must have the swallow whole, stinger and grab (tail), or tentacles and grab (tentacles) evolutions. The Eidolon regains HP equal to half the damage inflicted by swallow hole, stinger, or tentacles. Must be level 10 to take this evolution.
Weakness Evolutions
These evolutions provide additional EP at the cost of giving your Eidolon handicaps.
Energy Weakness (-1)
Take an additional 2 points of damage from a certain type of energy.
Blindness (-3)
The Eidolon is blind. Must be able to qualify for blindsense, tremorsense, lifesense, or scent.
Life Dependency (-4)
The Eidolon constantly loses 1 HP every round when summoned. Must be level 10 to take this Evolution.
Um, I said I couldn't wait to see v.3 so, yes I have been checking the previous versions.
Regarding the v.3:
I'm also working on a list of flaws that provide evolution points, so I'm happy to see the same here!
It still seems to waver on the one or two eidolons at first level. On the one hand i can see the excitement of having two straight out of the gate - having your archetype's eponymous toys to play with straight away, but I also think just one at first level and another at 2nd perhaps.
I still don't understand the hp "pool". What does this mean? They all have the same hp? Or they all have access to a pool of hit points? This is why I asked for an example. ;)
If I have three eidolons, and the one that is "out" has 30 hp, but is then wounded down to 15, does a new eidolon I swap it for have 15 or 30???
Um, I said I couldn't wait to see v.3 so, yes I have been checking the previous versions.
Regarding the v.3:
I'm also working on a list of flaws that provide evolution points, so I'm happy to see the same here!
It still seems to waver on the one or two eidolons at first level. On the one hand i can see the excitement of having two straight out of the gate - having your archetype's eponymous toys to play with straight away, but I also think just one at first level and another at 2nd perhaps.
I still don't understand the hp "pool". What does this mean? They all have the same hp? Or they all have access to a pool of hit points? This is why I asked for an example. ;)
If I have three eidolons, and the one that is "out" has 30 hp, but is then wounded down to 15, does a new eidolon I swap it for have 15 or 30???
Oh...bloody dyslexia.
Yes. The E-HP Pool represents the magical power the summoner uses to "materialize" the Eidolons, and all Eidolons share it. If an Eidolon is damaged, their form is disrupted, causing the collective magic anchoring them to the Material Plane to weaken. For instance:
Zoe the Summoner summons Eidolon A to fight. As you said, if the E-HP Pool was 30, and the Eidolon took 15 damage, then that's the rest of the HP all the Eidolons have left: 15 HP. If Zoe calls out Eidolon B, C, or even D, then the Eidolons will have 15 HP, even though they didn't haven't been attacked. If the E-HP pool is dropped to 0, then the any summoned Eidolons dematerialize, and Zoe can't summon them for another 24 hours.
As for the starting Eidolons, since you can only have one out at a time and it takes time to switch between them, I don't think it would make a difference if I started out with 1 or 2, so I'm just going to start with 2 to make it an even 6.
That's pretty interesting what sort of flaws are you working on? Maybe I could offer feedback.
Okay, V3 has gone without critique and feedback for a few weeks. I'm going to assume that's a sign that the archetype is balanced enough for use. So here's the final version. If this goes without constructive criticism so six weeks straight, I'm going to call it good and move on to my next class homebrew. Thank you all for your help.
Multiple Eidolons
:
The Summoner can have multiple Eidolons. This ability functions the same as the vanilla Summoner save for the following:
*The Summoner starts out with 2 Eidolons and gains an additional one at level 4, 8, 12, and 16.
*The Eidolons share an HP pool, using the highest Constitution score as the modifier. When this pool is depleted, the Summoner loses her ability to summon her Eidolons for 24 hours.
*Each Eidolon has its own Evolution Pool and also gain its own feats and stats, but their total EP is smaller:
*Summoners with the "Merge Forms" ability can only be merged with one Eidolon at a time.
*The Summoner can only have 1 Eidolon as their "active Eidolon". This is the Eidolon that is summoned, and you can't just dismiss it and summon another one. To change the active Eidolon, the summoner requires 2 rounds of uninterrupted concentration. At Lv. 12, this is reduced to 1 round. At Lv. 16, it's reduced to a full round action.
This replaces aspect and greater aspect.
Summon Monster
:
This functions as the normal summoner ability, but the summoner may only go as high as Summon Monster VII.
Defend Master
:
This ability functions as the Shield Ally & Greater Shield Ally abilities, except that they only affect the Summoner, and the bonus is increased by 1.
This ability alters Shield Ally and Greater Shield Ally.
Multiple Summon
:
At Lv. 10 the Summoner can have two Eidolons out simultaneously. Both Eidolons still share HP, and if the pool runs out, both are banished. At Lv. 20, the Summoner can have three Eidolons at once. The summoner must dismiss all Eidolons at once.
I still really like the concept. At first, upon quickly reading the latest writeup and noting the evolution progression I was fairly concerned - that's a lot of evolutions. But, seeing as the eidolons share a base HP pool, perhaps that is a leveler, and not really an issue until 10th level. You actually sacrifice power for quicker versatility - 2 rounds to effectively
change the evolutions you command, rather than at level up. And at higher levels it all becomes quite nice and fluid - less time to taken to change and mire than one available at once...
I'm sure some combat playtesting would be invaluable...
I still really like the concept. At first, upon quickly reading the latest writeup and noting the evolution progression I was fairly concerned - that's a lot of evolutions. But, seeing as the eidolons share a base HP pool, perhaps that is a leveler, and not really an issue until 10th level. You actually sacrifice power for quicker versatility - 2 rounds to effectively
change the evolutions you command, rather than at level up. And at higher levels it all becomes quite nice and fluid - less time to taken to change and mire than one available at once...
I'm sure some combat playtesting would be invaluable...
That it would.
The EP increase rate has always bothered me. The players need enough to make the Eidolons distinct, but balanced. On one hand, the trading power for versatility part is interesting, as it places a greater emphasis on Eidolon coordination and strategy. But on the other hand, it may seem weird.
