In a recent game I'm in, a small debate has arose as to whether or not a cauldron of flying or a flying carpet is considered an attended object while ridden, and what that might entail. In particular we want to know if it can be destroyed with conventional ranged attacks (such as from a gunslinger) or if a sunder attempt or similar mechanic is first required.
At least one of my fellows, thinks that an attended object must be worn or held to be considered attended, of which the above items are neither.
I for one, think it is attended. If the rules required items to be held or worn, they would have said so, instead, they merely have to be attended.
I think it is too.
An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus).
I submit that "attended" is therefore met whilst an item is grasped, touched, or worn.
Then again, there's also this:
Armor Class: Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they don't usually move, but many are tough enough to shrug off some damage from each blow. An object's Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier (see Table: Size and Armor Class of Objects) + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty to AC), but also an additional –2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.
I get that your cauldron moves obviously, but considering it is bigger than you, I would definitely consider it an attack roll against the cauldron, not an attack roll against you, trying to hit some sword or wand that you're waving around, the way an 'attended' object would normally work.
Tough to say though I guess.
Game designers have already clarified that such items are not treated as mounts, but more like overland flight, in short, they use your actions to move.
As such, I believe it to be fully under my control at all times and is therefore just as difficult to hit as a weapon wielded in my hands.
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Game designers have already clarified that such items are not treated as mounts, but more like overland flight, in short, they use your actions to move.
As such, I believe it to be fully under my control at all times and is therefore just as difficult to hit as a weapon wielded in my hands.
Just much larger and much more unwieldy.
To a degree which makes comparisons with swords slightly strange.
I think you should probably link to that clarification: just because something not treated like a mount for movement, does not mean the same rule applies for attacks.
So a flying cauldron should have an AC of 4 (for being size Large). It also has a defined hardness of 10 and 60 hit points, so you have to be able to hit it fairly hard in order to damage it.
I do not recall seeing any information about the hardness or hit points of a flying carpet, but I would imagine that it is easier to destroy than the cauldron.
You're right about the size, but I'd wager moving something with magic is equally easy as moving something with your hand, if not more so.
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i take attended to mean under some kind of control and not static. so fly carpets and cauldrons are attended items. the bigger question is do they count as cover and have a chance of being hit instead of the person on/in it.
A carpet rider shot at from the side it is easy to figure out but it someone is shooting up do they automatically hit and damage the carpet (provided they made a successful attack roll)?
Same question goes with a cauldron. if only your upper body is sticking out then isn't it cover with a 20-50% chance of hitting the cauldron instead?
So a flying cauldron should have an AC of 4 (for being size Large).
As an attended item, one must beat my CMD to harm my cauldron while I'm astride it.
i take attended to mean under some kind of control and not static. so fly carpets and cauldrons are attended items. the bigger question is do they count as cover and have a chance of being hit instead of the person on/in it.
A carpet rider shot at from the side it is easy to figure out but it someone is shooting up do they automatically hit and damage the carpet (provided they made a successful attack roll)?
Same question goes with a cauldron. if only your upper body is sticking out then isn't it cover with a 20-50% chance of hitting the cauldron instead?
The cauldron specifically says it grants partial cover in its description. Can't say about the carpet (a non-issue since I don't think anyone has one).
There are no generalized rules for shooting cover in Pathfinder, and there shouldn't be, since they were deliberately removed from the game by the game designers in the crossover from v3.5.
As for angles, that's entirely up to you as a GM. I submit that no attended item should be harmed unless directly and deliberately targeted, however. It seems clear to me that, that was the intent of the Pathfinder developers.
Perhaps a magic carpet or cauldron should be treated as a mount in those circumstances? Should a wagon be considered a mount?
Are you permitted to shoot at the mount separate from the rider? How do the rules apply?
If the wagon is the mount, and it is full of people, which person controls it? The driver?
Suppose the mount is significantly larger than the rider: ie, dragon mount with human rider, does that change how we look at the issue.
They are not treated as a mount for any other purpose in the game. Why would we start here?
Mixing different rules sounds like a recipe for disastrous confusion to me.
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So just a quick question. If I'm in an Apparatus of the Crab, does that make me immune to ranged attacks? I'm riding in the thing so it is now considered attended, and if I don't open the hatch there is no way to shoot in to it. So now you cant shoot me because I'm not exposed and you cant shoot my crab because its attended... that seems kind of silly...
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Actually, looking at Goblin Gus' stats you probably have nothing to worry about. On a hit with max damage he would deal 21pts of damage, half of which (since its a ranged attack) would be 10pts of damage. That 10pts of damage doesn't overcome the cauldron's hardness so on his best day he couldn't hurt the item. However if he crits it (can you crit objects?) he would deal on average 66pts of damage, half of which is 33pts of damage, for a total of 23 pts of damage to your cauldron. And that would only happen 1/20th of the time.
You'd attack it witha seige engine first, or just run away I guess. However, something being attended only affects it's saving throw, not it's CMD, or AC.
Being attended absolutely does effect its AC. It uses your Dexterity modifier, rather than being treated as having 0 Dexterity and taking an additional -2 to its AC. Stationary objects are incredibly easy targets.
Actually, looking at Goblin Gus' stats you probably have nothing to worry about. On a hit with max damage he would deal 21pts of damage, half of which (since its a ranged attack) would be 10pts of damage. That 10pts of damage doesn't overcome the cauldron's hardness so on his best day he couldn't hurt the item. However if he crits it (can you crit objects?) he would deal on average 66pts of damage, half of which is 33pts of damage, for a total of 23 pts of damage to your cauldron. And that would only happen 1/20th of the time.
Thanks for this. And no, you can't crit objects. They are explicitly immune.
On an off-topic note, is that tiefling alias of yours, your contest entry? If so, did you happen to make him a tiefling before or after realizing that I was going to be dominating people? I don't remember seeing it before.
EDIT: Just checked Chaiboy's lists. Your character has seen a lot of changes (haven't they all?), but has always been an outsider. *sigh*
The planetouched are REALLY popular, aren't they?
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He was an Aasimar first (worked well for a monk) and then he changed to a Tiefling (amazing Alchemists). I honestly built them for what races suited the classes the best, not for the best way to counter stuff.
Edit: And I left the Barbarian/Monk combo behind because there are a lot of melee builds in the competition, I figured the Alchemist was being under represented.