Goblin Squad Member
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what i mean is this.
Lets say a sub gives you 30 days of training. that means that if you want to keep one character training in skills during that full 30 day window you have to use the entire sub on that one character.
So during that month i can fully train one character, or i can split it up and train a character for 15 days and another for 15 days (in series not at the same time). According to Ryan you need to use MT to buy extra training time if you want two characters to train skills at the same time.
So since early enrollment will not have MT and will be sub only, players will not have the ability to fully train two characters during that time. So my question to ryan is basically, will there be a way to buy extra training time on one account to train two characters in parallel OR will i have to have to subscriptions to do that?
what i mean is this.
Lets say a sub gives you 30 days of training. that means that if you want to keep one character training in skills during that full 30 day window you have to use the entire sub on that one character.
So during that month i can fully train one character, or i can split it up and train a character for 15 days and another for 15 days (in series not at the same time). According to Ryan you need to use MT to buy extra training time if you want two characters to train skills at the same time.
So since early enrollment will not have MT and will be sub only, players will not have the ability to fully train two characters during that time. So my question to ryan is basically, will there be a way to buy extra training time on one account to train two characters in parallel OR will i have to have to subscriptions to do that?
This is something i would like the answer to as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am a little unsure about subscriptions and microtransactions when it comes to training. Is all training online and offline subject to either subscriptions or microtransactions, or just affects offline training? I am still trying to see how both systems would work together.
I may have missed the answer somewhere in all there random locations of information.
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Goblin Squad Member
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well basically training will work similar to EVE, mean you pick what you want to train, then depending on the skill it takes x amount of time to train the skill and unlock it. So for example lets say smelting mithril is the skill you unlock. You pick to train the skill and the skill takes 10 hours to unlock. Those ten hours are real time hours, and does not require you to be in game for those skills to train.
the sub/MT thing works like this. if you get a sub you get 30 days of training time. That time can only be applied to one character at a time. they are thinking about bieng able to buy say 1,3 or 6 month subs at one time (like other mmos). the MT transactions will probably be something like 1 day of training, 7 days of training...etc. So people can decide how much training they want to buy.
Also they said that if you are on a sub characters train in series not in parallel so take a 30 day month. you have two characters that take 15 days each to train a skill. days 1-15 character 1 is training, then days 16-30 character 2 is training. You could not have both characters train day 1-15, UNLESS you buy extra training time.
I would guess that the extra training time would be under MT (perhaps with a discount for having a sub), or they might go with a premium sub that gives you time to train say 2,3, or more characters at the same time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So during that month i can fully train one character, or i can split it up and train a character for 15 days and another for 15 days (in series not at the same time).
As I understand it, you would be able to train them both at the same time. So, you could train both of your characters for the first 15 days of the month, but neither afterwards (until you bought more training time).
But maybe not during Early Enrollment, which might be the main point of your question.
Is all training online and offline subject to either subscriptions or microtransactions, or just affects offline training?
I believe that all training is the same. You pay for training, and it progresses whether you're online or offline.
Also they said that if you are on a sub characters train in series not in parallel...
Where did they say this? I don't believe this is accurate. It's possible they won't allow you to train two characters at once during Early Enrollment. However, during Open Enrollment, I am almost 100% positive that you will be able to take your subscription and train 6 characters simultaneously for the first 5 days of the month. Although, you might need to make a one-time purchase to unlock each additional character for simultaneous training.
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Goblin Squad Member
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http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p8bh&page=3?Kickstarter-Community-Thread-S ubscriptions#122
From ryan's above post.
A subscription will buy you a month (or a multiple of months depending on how you buy it) of training time. You'll be able to split that time across as many characters as you wish(*), but they train in series, not in parallel. To enable more than one character on an account to train in parallel you'll have to pay extra - either in the form of additional subscription time, or via training time purchased in the cash store.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that question has to be asked here is, 'what do you mean by 'fully train?" I mean they're looking at 2 YEARS to get a Capstone (I.e. LVL 20) characters.
They will probably have 6 month subs so I guess that'd be plenty of time?
You're not getting the question. It is not about 'fully' training in the sense that a character is 'done', it is about training two characters at the same time.
Only one character can train at a time with a subscription.
If you want to train more than one character at the same time, you need to buy training time from the micro-transaction store.
During most of Early Enrollment there may only be a subscription system, because the MTX store will not have been built yet.
How would you train two characters at the same time, then?
You would need two accounts. Three characters = three accounts, etc.
One character per account is not the most desirable outcome, but people in the EE who want to have more than one character would be forced into it.
So... GW should implement the ability to buy training time from the beginning, so you don't need a separate account for each character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks, leperkhaun, you're absolutely right.
I think I was getting my thoughts a bit jumbled up, but clearly what I said was wrong.
GW should implement the ability to buy training time from the beginning, so you don't need a separate account for each character.
I find it extremely valuable to only have to have one account. If there is anything I can do with two accounts that I can't do with one, then I think that's a problem. That includes logging in more than one character at the same time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to say yes but I suspect it will happen in mid-to-late Early Enrollment. Crowdforging will likely dictate timing.
Interesting... so as of now, someone with an alpha pledge who wants more than one actively-training character would be better served to drop down to a Buddy pledge and keep both accounts for themselves. Then the Skymetal store comes out, and you make training time purchased through it: (1) slightly cheaper, (2) slightly more expensive, or (3) exactly the same as a separate subscription.
Option 1 encourages people to stick with one account, but leaves people with more than one account from the pre-MTX period feeling invalidated.
Option 2 makes the MTX-purchased time mostly a fool's option, as buying a second subscription would be cheaper.
Option 3 makes the difference between multiple characters and multiple accounts almost irrelevant, but still slightly favours multi-accounting since multi-boxing and partially avoiding account suspensions become possible. In other words, more problematic players benefit.
Whether option 2 or 3 pushes people toward multi-accounting, those who were forced into it by being early adopters (who wanted more than one concurrently-training character) are punished with the hassle of more difficult character-changing and GW gets the slightly higher management difficulties of more than one account per player to deal with.
Option 1 provides a small reward for keeping everything on one account, which should hopefully counterbalance the advantages of multi-accounting. The trouble is that by not making it an option from the start you can't do that without the multi-accounters feeling cheated by being pushed into a suboptimal choice. Now they're more prone to become problem players and they have the optimal account setup for doing so.
Really, we need a way to concurrently train more than one character, on the same account, from the start.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If PFO remains as described, a sandbox MMO with no classes and a real time skill training system, then I would purchase a life time subscription if one is offered.
I'm hoping there won't be micro transactions for anything, even cosmetics. I know I've read a discussion that they may use a system like the Plex system in EvE. Where you can buy game time by.using in game currency. That is good for those with a lot of tme to play and less RL money on hand, but I have the opposite situation.
If PFO remains as described, a sandbox MMO with no classes and a real time skill training system, then I would purchase a life time subscription if one is offered.
I'm hoping there won't be micro transactions for anything, even cosmetics. I know I've read a discussion that they may use a system like the Plex system in EvE. Where you can buy game time by.using in game currency. That is good for those with a lot of tme to play and less RL money on hand, but I have the opposite situation.
Unfortunately, there will be no lifetime sub. And there will be a MTX store to purchase fluff items. Both are talked about in the forum and in blog posts.
If you plan to push for a lifetime sub and no MTX, well you have a long row to hoe as its said.
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Goblin Squad Member
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the problem with lifetime subs is that people are used to seeing it for say 150-300 bucks. Financially this is not really a good option in the long term for a company. What happens is that they end up having to support people that eventually end up playing for free. It ends up costing the company in the long term. Not only that but saying someone has a one time get everything lifetime sub ends up with deciding what features do you include with the sub and which ones you dont. what features would a lifetime sub entitle people for?
For example the talk about eventually maybe doing modules, would lifetime sub folks get that for free or will they have to MT for it? You have to add all such things to what a lifetime sub would cost you.
Anyway someone worked out how much a lifetime sub would have to cost to be viable for GW to actually accept, that number was $2500 or more i think.
I actualy like the idea of being able to use the monthly sub to train any and all of your characters at the same time for the full 30 days, but you have to buy the extra character slots
I.E. I have a paladin, and a sorc, i want to train both of them for 30 days, well my subscriptions gives me 30 days of time, and both characters get the full 30 days, now i want to make a crafter, that third character gets the same full 30 days training at the same exact time my paly and sorc did, but i had to pay a set amount of money for each and every character slot i unlocked. on average i believe most mmos are charging between 10 and 15 dollars to unlock a new slot. Don't know if that would be more profitable for gw then thier current plan, but it makes me a lot happier.
I know i spent 100 on character slots in COH in addition to my monthly sub before the game went free to play.
@leperkhaun - no, there won't be.
@keovar - there willl be an endless set of tradeoffs of this sort. Convince others of the merits of your case when the Crowdforging process takes up the issue and that's how you prevail!
So the crowd forgers will get to actually vote on how multiple characters are going to work then? cause that would be amazing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar - there will be an endless set of tradeoffs of this sort. Convince others of the merits of your case when the Crowdforging process takes up the issue and that's how you prevail!
People are effectively buying their accounts now, through the Kickstarter, and as I mentioned, not having extra training time available from the beginning encourages people who want more than one concurrent character to drop out of Alpha and go to Buddy or Guild. Is that your intent?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Keovar - it seems to me that the benefits of Alpha far outweigh the benefits of having 2 accounts. What I would do, were I extremely worried about the issue and wanted to guarantee that I'd be able to train multiple characters on the very first day of Early Enrollment, is make two Kickstarter accounts and pledge twice, once for Alpha and once for Pioneer or Buddy.
But that's just me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i just went ahead and did the buddy. Overall i would like to have two characters log in at the same time if possible, since i doubt that logging in two characters from the same account will happen.
its worth the couple extra bucks for me to make sure that both characters can start training month one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know I've read a discussion that they may use a system like the Plex system in EvE. Where you can buy game time by.using in game currency. That is good for those with a lot of tme to play and less RL money on hand, but I have the opposite situation.
Just to be clear, in EvE, you don't simply buy game time using in-game currency. A person buys game time with cash, and then successfully sells it to another player for in-game currency after market mechanisms have acted on the sale to provide an acceptable price.
The benefit to you, in that case, is that you buy the PLEX-equivalent from the MTX store with your dollars, and then sell it to the person with lots of time to play and less RL money on hand for Coin. Thusly, you can use your abundant resource (cash) to better do the things that you enjoy using your limited resource (time) on. You can use your time where you will get the most enjoyment of it (not grinding for gold).
The great thing about the PLEX system and the reason why it is a resounding success is that it benefits all types of players, with no net effect on the game world/economy. It is a win-win with no collateral damage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar - it seems to me that the benefits of Alpha far outweigh the benefits of having 2 accounts. What I would do, were I extremely worried about the issue and wanted to guarantee that I'd be able to train multiple characters on the very first day of Early Enrollment, is make two Kickstarter accounts and pledge twice, once for Alpha and once for Pioneer or Buddy.
But that's just me.
If I could, I'd buy the second account as an add-on.
I have no use for a second copy of the non-PFO stuff (PDFs, MP3s, or even the minis, really), and I can't even give a PDF away because if it ends up on a torrent site, the associated accounts could be shut down. Besides, there are no first-month Pioneer slots left, and any new KS account I create would miss half the Daily Deals.
If you decide to offer an add-on that includes the second account (no need for another copy of the software, I think), first month EE, the 4 months subscription, the alliance and player packs, the Daily Deals (using the DD date from my original pledge), then I'd be interested in that, as long as it was reasonable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan Dancey:
Thank you for the Destiny's Twin upgrade! That's much better than I had hoped for, assuming that it applies to all pledge rewards above 35$. As I mentioned in my last post of this thread, I would have bought such an ability as an add-on, if it were reasonable and could share the same pledge date as my original (something a second KS account couldn't do). Don't worry, though... you haven't really left money on the table, since I'm excited enough by the DT upgrade that I went ahead and got the 100$ print pack (which I was previously skipping, due to my vision issues). ☺
Now, if you've a mind to consider another add-on, I'd be interested in buying a second name reservation so I can cover my 'twin' character too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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just to ask about this since the newest blog on experience...
I see I can earn in game coin to buy subscription time from other players. Subscription time gets me skill training time in the form of passively accumulating XP. What else does subscription time get? Is it just this passive xp accumulation?
2nd question topic, Can I use in game coin to buy anything else in the microtransaction store?
3rd question topic, I can buy subscription time and sell it for in-game coin to other players. Can I buy subscription time and sell it to other players for Skysteel (whatever your calling the transcription store currency)?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Soldack Keldonson,
1. LOTRO and Vanguard both give you 500 cash shop points (about $5) every month you subscribe. I wouldn't be surprised to see Ryan do this, but I seem to remember him being somewhat hesitant to do so. I'm not at all confident in that memory, though.
2. I don't expect to be able to buy anything in the cash shop using in-game coin. Even the Training Kits (XP Earners) must be bought by a player with real money in the cash shop first, and then traded on the market.
3. I don't expect to be able to trade Skymetal Bits with another player in any way whatsoever. I don't think any of the existing F2P systems allow this.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Check out the blog Money Changes Everything. It is about a year old but has some details on how the systems will work and might provide some insights.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@#3:
I presume extra training time is bought in the MTX store, which means it will be bought with Skymetal. You'd buy skymetal with real money, then turn it into the training time. At least, that's how most microtransactions I know about work.
So selling training time for skymetal would be kinda redundant, since it would almost certainly sell for one set skymetal price. At best that'd let you get skymetal back if you decide you didn't really want to buy the training time, but that'd be a very rare reason to implement a system to trade it for skymetal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ironV
in eve you spend real life money to buy a "PLEX" which then can be traded in the game to another player for coin.
If you could sell PLEX to another player for Skysteel, then I can save up coin to buy a plex from player A, sell plex to player B for his Skysteel.
This would allow me to farm in game coin to get PLEX and i could farm more to get skysteel to buy stuff in the microtransaction shop. EITHER way, GW benefits because some player had to spend real money on the PLEX and some player had to spend real money on skysteel, we are just passing it around until one player uses the PLEX or skysteel. The net effect to GW is the same.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2. I don't expect to be able to buy anything in the cash shop using in-game coin. Even the Training Kits (XP Earners) must be bought by a player with real money in the cash shop first, and then traded on the market.
It's too buried in my post history to find, but I asked Ryan about allowing players to sell other RMT items, or simply sell skymetal, and he didn't want to sell anything other than training packages.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not quite the same.
If I buy Skysteel directly with coin, then no one gave any money to goblin works. We want goblin works to get lots of money.
So if the only way to get Skystell is to buy it with real money, but then you can trade it other players (like for PLEX) GW is getting money from the Skysteel being purchased.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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@Valkenr Think this is what you were referring to:
No, no Skymetal for Coin. The market will regulate the value of game time for Coin. If we set a price of Skymetal for Coin, the market will always price it at whatever the conversion rate we establish is. That would be harmful to the smooth functioning of the system and open the door to the bad RMT guys again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I feel like the demand for Skymetal would go up if you can trade it in game. There will be people who want to use real money to buy things in the game. There will be people with things in the game they want to sell. The only result of this would be more skyemtal being sold by GW.
How could that ever hurt the demand for skymetal? The demand for skymetal is what drives how much revenue GW gets from skymetal.
In economics, this would be a fixed price demand curve. If it s straight line representing that the more demand the more sold at each price point. The real world price of skymetal is not going to change based on demand.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Weighing in, for what it's worth-
I fully support a game company doing what they feel is best to make ends meet. The developers / publishers need to make money in order to keep the lights on. And I will stomache most of what gets thrown out there, if I means I get to continue to log in and play.
But when it's all said and done, the sub is really the best model. Maybe not economically the best model, but for me as a player, it's hands down the best experience. $14.99 is about what I am going to pay to see a 2 hour movie here in LA, so I'm certainly not getting exploited in any way. But that simple $15 barrier makes for a better community, and makes the whole experience feel more immersive and less cheap.
We've all seen what happens to communities when a game goes F2P. Access to the game takes nothing more than an email address, so the flood gates get open to any internet superstar who wants to jump in, tell Chuck Norris jokes in general chat, ruin a few RP sessions, then go complain on the forums about how they are being abused by the developers placing restrictions on a game that is free to play. $15 a month is a like a security guard that keeps the vagrants from peeing on your azaleas.
Then you tack on a digital store. The store doesn't work if I can aquire the same items in game, so instead, or if the items exclusive to the store held no sway on the player base. But I just feel cheapened each time I have to open an in game store browser and add real world money to an account to pick up those trinkets and baubles I covet. It also doesn't help the image of the game, as (again, personally) I start to equate what should be a AAA title with facebook shovelware designed to rope people in and fleece them.
PFO is taking bold steps to break the mold and do something different. It's not shaping up to be a themepark hot-key mashing treadmill. I just hope that this innovation makes its way into the how GW chooses to handle the business of making money, and we see something that allows them to thrive without watering down the experience for the players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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OK Have trawled the forums and I am hoping what follows is mostly correct
1. Subs get 30 days training time a month, split however they choose across however many characters they possess.
2. Training time is purchasable using real money (MTX).
3. This training time can be sold on a market for in-game currency.
My questions are thus:
1. Do the training days from a sub or MTX have an expiry. For example if u sub for a month, but only logon and train your character for 14 days do u have 16 days to use next month or do they expire. Likewise, if you have a yearly subscription do the unused hours stack?
I think this important for casual gamers who might not have the time to logon every day/few days to update training.
2. Will the ability to buy training time mean f2p can grind to a level of subs/MTX players? Or will the cost of training time be prohibitive? How does Gw intend on finding a way to satisfy both parties?
The money question is always the killer, but from what i understand this looks like a fantastic way to run an MMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1: Yes. If you've not designated a character to receive training, the time is lost.
2: Yes, I fully expect people to play for free by purchasing training time on the market.
@Ryan, could you explain number 2. Just curious how this will be possible, if subscription paid training will take you 2.5 years to reach 20 levels.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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People will sell game time on the market as a way to convert real money into game currency. The people buying that time with game currency will be earning that currency by playing the game. In this way, we facilitate the need of people to get more currency with their real money, and we facilitate the need of people to play who can't afford real money to pay for it.
Essentially the people with real money are 'hiring' someone to go farm game currency for them, post facto.
This is the way the EVE PLEX system works. The market sets the price in game currency for game time - as more people spend real money to buy game time to sell in game, the price goes down, and vice versa. The supply/demand curve sets the price for what it costs in real money to buy game currency.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a non-EVE player, thanx for the explanation. So it is like playing the stock market for training time using gold coins. Supply and demand will determine the going rate.
So people can play for free, though progression would be slower, due to having to spend their collected gold on by training time when needed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cheers Ryan,
Few more questions though:
1. MTX Training time. Will that operate the same way as subs, with expiry on the training time, and any non-designated training time lost?
2. Would you consider the option of simply giving a sub the equivalent of 30 days of training time in MTX currency that expires on a monthly basis instead of just the training time. I feel this would give more flexibility and enjoyment as if they are unable to logon for any particular reason they would still be getting full value from their sub.
3. I feel more casual players are unlikely to want to sub if the only benefit is 30 days training in a month. I am unfamiliar with EvE, but can you queue training up to happen automatically, to prevent any possible wastage of value?
The Wiseman of the Wilds