Kickstarter Community Thread: Subscriptions & Microtransactions


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The Wiseman of the Wilds wrote:

Kinda confused, if you are willing to pay then there is no disadvantage?

We aren't going to level any faster, gain any more attack power or loot, gain any merit badges, we just get to have an alt without the $15 a month cost

I am willing to pay, but not to be robbed. after the first year, I'd expect to have lost nearly 200$ just because I wanted to play an alt. That is assuimg I settle with one. If everyone else had to do this. I would accept it. But they don't.

And I am right there with you Mor. Until I hear that this is changed, my friends and guild will not be playing the game. Even if I hear favorable reviews about it, I shall discurage anyone I come across to support it.

I am not saying this to be petty or mean spirited. Give me the same chance you gave everyone else goblinworks, even less for all I ask for is the Destiny twin perk. And I shall be amongst your most loyal followers.

Until then, this is good bye.

Goblin Squad Member

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If someone is determined to be a victim, let them. The opportunity was there for everyone. Nobody was denied.

Goblin Squad Member

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Imbicatus wrote:
I do think that GW should allow players to buy extra training time for alts to train those alts in parallel instead of in series.

It is my understanding that this will be allowed.

Granted, this is an old post, but I don't recall seeing anything to contradict it.

From Never punish a player for using a single account:

Ryan Dancey wrote:
You will almost certainly be able to train skills on more than one character per account. Doing so almost certainly will not be free.

[Edit] Thinking about this, I suppose some recent statements about the way MTX Training Time will work could indicate that only one character per account can train simultaneously, since it's described as activating trianing on the account and then directing it at a character.

Ryan recently made clear that it's not really of value to Goblinworks to encourage players to use a single account, so they might very well want to make it simpler to just require a 2nd account if you want two characters to train simultaneously.

While I'm not thrilled with that, I can live with it. I think it's probably going to result in significant requests for characters to be transferred from one account to another. The natural thing for most people to do will be to make an alt on their existing account. If they are able to pay more later, they'll probably want to train that alt simultaneously with their main.

In my ideal world, there would be no detriment whatsoever between having two characters on a single account as opposed to on two separate accounts, including being able to log them in at the same time.


Elana Nightrunner wrote:
The Wiseman of the Wilds wrote:

Kinda confused, if you are willing to pay then there is no disadvantage?

We aren't going to level any faster, gain any more attack power or loot, gain any merit badges, we just get to have an alt without the $15 a month cost

I am willing to pay, but not to be robbed after the first year, I'd expect to have lost nearly 200$ just because I wanted to play an alt. That is assuimg I settle with one. If everyone else had to do this. I would accept it. But they don't.

And I am right there with you Mor. Until I hear that this is changed, my friends and guild will not be playing the game. Even if I hear favorable reviews about it, I shall discurage anyone I come across to support it.

I am not saying this to be petty or mean spirited. Give me the same chance you gave everyone else goblinworks, even less for all I ask for is the Destiny twin perk. And I shall be amongst your most loyal followers.

Until then, this is good bye.

Lol, the old "gonna take my toys and go home" ploy? That always works. Bet it won't be 10 minutes before a Dev calls you to beg you to come back. :eyeroll

Goblin Squad Member

I do not expect them to. But likewise they should know how many people they scare away from their games doing this.

It is their product their free to do as they will and were all free to not buy it. Could turn out we will. I liked your suggestion Valan. Maybe Goblinworks will think of something better. Time shall tell.

That is a test group for you right there. Out of those not donators of the greenlight run. Only one out of ten remains and that is only because he remains hopeful.

Goblin Squad Member

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Moridian wrote:
... they should know how many people they scare away from their games doing this.

It seems incredibly bizarre to me to refuse to play a game because someone else gets to play for free. Literally, it's as bizarre as refusing to watch a movie at a cinema because another patron had a coupon for a free ticket.

Goblin Squad Member

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Moridian wrote:
Out of those not donators of the greenlight run. Only one out of ten remains and that is only because he remains hopeful.

There are far more people who read the forums and don't post. And there are for more people still who will never even stop by the forums.

A buddy of mine often recalls the forums when Vanguard was in development, and a particular poster who was extremely upset at the thought of not being able to sit in chairs, to the point of declaring he would never play the game if they didn't support that particular feature.

It's very easy to say things on the forums that don't turn out to be true. I think it's very likely that anyone who bothers to come here and post is sufficiently interested in PFO to eventually try it out. At that point, the game itself will determine whether they keep playing, not some trivial dispute about whether or not another player has a perk they don't have.


They will have training time, sold in 30 day packs available for in game coin. Eve uses the same system, they call theirs Plex. So anyone that wishes WILL be able to train an alt for the cost of in game coin. Alternately someone could even use this to play for free.

Goblin Squad Member

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Moridian wrote:
... But likewise they should know how many people they scare away from their games doing this.

They weren't there to begin with. That was their problem. Nobody's responsibility but their own.

The sensible thing would be to say, "Hey: that DT perks was sweet. I very much would like an opportunity to pick that up!" and then contribute to the community trying our best to contribute thoughts, identify preferences, and help think things through. That would have been much more likely to have a positive outcome than expressing an entitled attitude, recant when called on it, then throwing a tantrum and stalking off.

If you present yourself as a demanding, high maintenance, costly player you are self identifying as a less profitable customer because of the threat of overhead costs.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

People are used to Themeparks and the need for alts to experience all parts of the game mechanically. Because of the sandbox nature of this game and the skill system, there is no need for alts mechanically, only for role playing reasons. This means they are not a requirement for game play, and being able to train them simultaneously is not needed to fully experience the game, but an extra. Requiring payment via cash or in-game gold for that extra makes sense.

If that makes you want to boycott the game, then feel free. But I agree with Nihimon, it's a baffling reason to do so.

Goblin Squad Member

Elana Nightrunner wrote:
Yeah funny how you folks keep saying that. Yet I've not seen one post that says. "I didn't donate at the greenlight thing,and I think it makes perfect sense." Note that any that comes after this I shall dismiss as a troll.

I actually did say that already. Look at the first post on page 6 of this thread. Here is the relevant part of my post

Oberyn Corvus wrote:
Speaking as someone who does NOT have the destiny's twin perk (I missed out on the KS), I do not think DT is in any way shape or form giving people an unfair advantage.

And I have repeatedly stated that I do not feel entitled to being able to purchase DT just because I missed the opportunity. Still want to call troll?

Goblin Squad Member

MrSavarius wrote:
If their business model relies on people having more than one account, I think they should take a look at their business model.

As I understand it, thats how EVE is running their business. Considering that its not only around 9+ years after launch, but growing year on year, Id say its a successful model

CEO, Goblinworks

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Some answers to questions posed elsewhere in this thread:

You will be able to have more than one character training on an account. You will pay for all the training you get. So you will be able to pay 2x the monthly subscription cost and have 2 characters training in parallel. Or you can get parallel training using training time purchased direct from the cash store, or acquired on the in-game market for Coin. There is no practical limit to how many characters you'll be able to train in parallel.

(This is my objective. Technical limitations beyond my control might affect this but at this time I see none.)

You will be able to log in more than one character on the same account. So you can run the client twice, or run the client on two computers logged into the same account. (This is commonly called "multiboxing").

(Ditto to previous disclaimer).

You MAY NOT be able to log in your Destiny's Twin character at the same time you are logged in to another character on that account. I haven't thought through all the complexities yet. It is likely that you will have to specify, in a way that cannot be changed, which characters are Twins. This twinning effect may have other repercussions TBD, such as the inability to sell either Twin to another player separately if and when we enable character or account transfers.

You MAY be able to buy an account with Destiny's Twin when we open the Fulfillment Tool. This is envisioned as a way to allow people who missed the Kickstarter to get some (but not all) of the benefits we offered to Kickstarters directly. It is a virtual certainty that at some point we will start removing options from the Fulfillment tool, and by the time we get to Early Enrollment, many benefits, almost certainly including Destiny's Twin, will be unavailable.

Frankly, my opinion is that if you think Destiny's Twin is a paramount advantage that the game cannot be satisfactory without, and you don't have Destiny's Twin, then our game costs $30/mo instead of $15/mo for you to play, and that doesn't bother me.

I fully expect that many (most?) players will have multiple characters training, which implies multiple monthly training costs. The advantages to multiple characters is worth the cost. I think that many players will have multiple accounts, for the purpose of social engineering, because being able to represent yourself as two or more different humans to different social graphs has a huge value. And I expect that some people will have the hardware resources to run many of these characters simultaneously, giving them a hydra-headed interface to the game world.

If that bothers you, all I can say is that it happens in every other MMO, approved or not, and trying to stop it is impossible, like trying to stop RMT and Gold Farming. I'd rather spend my time maximizing the play value for everyone than trying to police behaviors that cannot be stopped.

RyanD

Goblin Squad Member

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Ryan Dancey wrote:
You will be able to log in more than one character on the same account.

Awesome! Thank you :)

Ryan Dancey wrote:
You MAY NOT be able to log in your Destiny's Twin character at the same time you are logged in to another character on that account.

That sounds like it also means we may, which is also awesome.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ryan Dancey wrote:
... I'd rather spend my time maximizing the play value for everyone than trying to police behaviors that cannot be stopped.

Have you considered running for office? We could use some more pragmatic legislators.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:
... I'd rather spend my time maximizing the play value for everyone than trying to police behaviors that cannot be stopped.
Have you considered running for office? We could use some more pragmatic legislators.

+1 FOR THIS

And thanks again for Ryan for coming and settling the DT debate, was one of the few things there has been angst between Kickstarters/non-kickstarters.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ryan Dancey wrote:
You MAY NOT be able to log in your Destiny's Twin character at the same time you are logged in to another character on that account.

OMG...WTF!!! You mean its's not a pay to win perk like we were told and we're not disadvantaging all those that missed the Kickstarter?!?! No way!

/sarcasm

Now that Ryan has answered a heap of questions with rational answers, maybe all the passive aggressive rants and histrionics can stop and we can go back to our regularly scheduled program.

Goblin Squad Member

Oh dear. Whatever will I do without all the drama.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
You will be able to log in more than one character on the same account.
Ryan Dancey wrote:
You MAY NOT be able to log in your Destiny's Twin character at the same time you are logged in to another character on that account.

Why would destiny's twin characters not be able to log in at the same time, while regular characters can?

Goblin Squad Member

Um. Games have rules?

Goblin Squad Member

Valkenr wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:
You will be able to log in more than one character on the same account.
Ryan Dancey wrote:
You MAY NOT be able to log in your Destiny's Twin character at the same time you are logged in to another character on that account.
Why would destiny's twin characters not be able to log in at the same time, while regular characters can?

I assume this is a measure to retard the advancement of DT characters, something that was gained as a perk but allows those players to get the advantages of two subscriptions without having to pay for such. In other words, an economic decision.

Goblin Squad Member

Or it could be an acknowledgement that there is indeed an unfair element of advantage conferred by destiny's twin which really should be mitigated by such a rule.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan made it clear he doesn't care if you think DT is unfair, if you want the exact same advantage, and don't have the DT perk, your subscription cost is $30/mo, if you aren't buying training time in-game.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I'm confused; what is the advantage that a DT character has over the main character on the same account?

Or is the objection to the fact that people who participated in the KS got in excess of ~$2500 worth of virtual goods.

Goblin Squad Member

As I understand it (quite possibly imperfectly) with Destiny's Twin (DT) you can train your main and your twin at the same time. Otherwise plying two characters with the same amount of training time at the same time would require being logged in on two separate accounts, not one. Therefore it is not fair to other players for a DT player to play this way at half the price over someone who does not have DT.

Goblin Squad Member

Harad Navar wrote:
As I understand it (quite possibly imperfectly) with Destiny's Twin (DT) you can train your main and your twin at the same time. Otherwise plying two characters with the same amount of training time at the same time would require being logged in on two separate accounts, not one. Therefore it is not fair to other players for a DT player to play this way at half the price over someone who does not have DT.

The only time something is not fair is when an opportunity is denied. Everyone has had the same opportunity to get Destiny's Twin, even if there were a limited number of KS packages, everyone had the same line to get in.

It makes perfect sense that you can't log into the same account with two different characters at the same time. What DT allows us to do is train two characters, equally, at the same time. We do not get the training at half price, we get to train two characters for one price. No one is forcing you to buy an extra account to have the same. But considering what DT does allow, and for such a small amount of KS, it was really foolish or unfortunate not to take advantage of the opportunity.

Goblin Squad Member

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I'll say it again. It's an economic decision.

Want two character training in tandem but only play one at a time? Get DT.
Want two character training in tandem and be able to multibox? Buy another subscription.

Goblin Squad Member

Harad Navar wrote:
As I understand it (quite possibly imperfectly) with Destiny's Twin (DT) you can train your main and your twin at the same time. Otherwise plying two characters with the same amount of training time at the same time would require being logged in on two separate accounts, not one. Therefore it is not fair to other players for a DT player to play this way at half the price over someone who does not have DT.

Mmm not quite, at least that doesn't quite jibe with what I think I understand.

Destiny's perk is for one alt character and your main character: those are the twins.

A single account can have multiple characters. The backer who picks up DT has to designate which of their several characters is the main and which one of their alts is the twin.

Then, when they buy whatever it takes for their main to accrue XP over time, that xp will also accrue to the twin.

Then, to actually train a skill, the main character does whatever it takes to acquire and activate that skill using that character's accumulated XP. If the player then decides he want to train a skill on the alt twin, he has to log into that alt and go do whatever it takes to acquire and activate that skill using the exp earned while the main was gaining xp.

If XP is gasoline and my main character is a car, my DT alt would be another car I have in the garage. The destiny's twin perk makes it so that if I go fill up the gasoline tank on my main, my DT alt's gas tank also fills up.

If I drive my main car to the store ten I use the gas/xp in the main's tank. The DT alt's tank though is still full. To use it I would have to go back and take him for a spin as well.

Hopefully that cleared things up a little. And hopefully it is right.

Goblin Squad Member

It is like having two equal characters on the same account. One is only your "main" if you play that character more often. We are just so used to MMOs describe a second, inferior character as an alt. with DT neither character needs to be inferior, it is only if you chose to play it that way.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
It is like having two equal characters on the same account. One is only your "main" if you play that character more often. We are just so used to MMOs describe a second, inferior character as an alt. with DT neither character needs to be inferior, it is only if you chose to play it that way.

I can envision several cases where you leave your first character behind because with more experience you can build characters better. You also may find a new direction (alignment) more fun.

Goblin Squad Member

Harad Navar wrote:
I can envision several cases where you leave your first character behind because with more experience you can build characters better. You also may find a new direction (alignment) more fun.

With DT neither character will have more experience, perhaps a different set if skills, but the same amount of experience.

Experience is expressed in real time and then spent on skills, which take real time to train. There are no actual experience points. There are no character levels, unless we chose to describe them through the expression of skill points.

Example: EVE Online

In EvE there are no levels, but many people will say how many total skill points their character has. I have also seen it, and used it myself, where the player converts every 1 million points into a Skill level but this is usually done on fan website where it asks for character level.

Goblin Squad Member

Ah, I meant more experience playing the game.

Goblin Squad Member

Is there any way to get some of the kickstarter benefits now? Since I didn't find the game plans months ago... Unfortunately since I love the sandbox game style. Been playing Eve for years, love the game, but would rather play a Fantasy Sandbox game.

Maybe do a second kickstarter? Lets say for... The Server. Keep the game running on one server. All people play on that server. Setup the kickstarter for the server as an investment to save till closer to launch.

Have the kickstarter give mostly the same rewards, except take out some of the physical items like books and minis. Maybe increase some of the virtual rewards, that way the funding all goes to the server and no physical item costs.

Anyway, just a thought.


@Xeen, they have said that once they get the latest kick starter fulfillment system going that they will introduce ways for those who missed the KS to donate to the game and get into EE . Likely it will have other options too but we will have to wait until they introduce this plan. Just keep an eye on the GW site for info.

Goblin Squad Member

I will thanks

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