Kickstarter Community Thread: Subscriptions & Microtransactions


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

Well i sent an email off to Mr. Dancey, I'll let you guys know if I hear anything back. Back in the day I would beta test in exchange for getting access to the game and that seemed to be the normal if you weren't a paid tester hired by the company who would deal with the unit testing and alpha testing.

Goblin Squad Member

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So i was thinking, what would encourage people to have a subscription?

One thing i thought of would be an out of game skill management system. So basically (correct me if im wrong) skills take time to train similar to EVE. How about one of the perk for subscribing would be that you could use a smartphone/tablet app and access a webpage that allows you to select new skills to train without logging in the game. This would just be to train new skills when you have a skill that has finished training.

another could be online access to your selling merchants so you can see what has sold, or if there is an auction house (i hope there is not, or that auction houses are local only to a settlement, not global) online access to it so you can see whats happening.

Goblin Squad Member

@leperkhaun, I believe one of the design goals is that players should be able to use the Cash Shop to get everything a subscription provides, though they'll have to pay more for it. I'm not sure it's actually important to Goblinworks to maximize subscriptions.

Goblin Squad Member

A question that I am unsure if has been asked, so I'm asking anyway.

Is there going to be a way to buy a bulk of subscription time, without leaving a card linked?

Because I'm incredibly paranoid about leaving my card number on any account for much longer than it takes to complete one transaction, and would prefer to be able to buy, say, 6 months of subscription time in one go than leave it on monthly.

Note I'm saying more "Subscription in advance" than "Microtransactions". Sort of like buying a larger pack of [Thing that gets used up] in advance because you know you'll use them, instead of getting a smaller pack regularlly. Like, say, razor blades.

Sure, you can get the 4-pack of blades whenever you run out, but if you get the 24-pack, you have a longer time before you need to buy more.

Am I coming across clearly?

CEO, Goblinworks

@The-Mage-King - almost certainly.

Goblin Squad Member

Ah, great to know. Confidence has been added.

That'll be early on, right? Like in Beta/prerelease?

Goblin Squad Member

@The-Mage-King

No subscription game forces you to leave your subscription running. If you are paranoid about credit card fraud or afraid you will forget to cancel and get charged an extra month, you can always cancel your subscription after every time you re-new.

1,3,6, and 12 month packs are pretty standard in MMO's.

I wouldn't be worried.

Goblin Squad Member

Valkenr wrote:

@The-Mage-King

No subscription game forces you to leave your subscription running. If you are paranoid about credit card fraud or afraid you will forget to cancel and get charged an extra month, you can always cancel your subscription after every time you re-new.

1,3,6, and 12 month packs are pretty standard in MMO's.

I wouldn't be worried.

Eh. It's not so much card fraud as that I generally dislike anything having any of my information for longer than a transaction. You know?

Goblin Squad Member

First post on the messageboards - woo. :P I've played the tabletop with friends for months now, but never knew about the PFO project until yesterday. I've since read the entire blog, I've pledged $100, I'm trying to get my friends together for the Guild package, and I'm now slowly going through messageboard posts that seem important to me.

I've never really been a huge fan of F2P games - or at least I don't feel like investing a lot of time into them. Coming from UO, SWG, WoW, SW:TOR, etc., I'm very used to paying a monthly sub in order to get what I expect from a good MMO:
- good, respectable, and meaningful support
- fast support and short response times
- regular updates (and/or expansions) to the game
- expedient bugfixes
- greater quality in general
- etc.

I know some would argue that these are still possible with F2P games, but I feel that the devs in F2P games are not obligated (as much) to provide these things.

I know the whole F2P vs. Subs argument has gone on for a long time, and I'm sure it's been discussed in great length somewhere on these messageboards. The purpose of my post here is not to spawn some huge repeat argument, but I just want to express that I'm more of a proponent of Subs before I continue my post.

Onward to the real purpose of my post!

I obviously plan to have a subscription to PFO. However, I read this in the blog:

Quote:
Some things in the Skymetal Bit store will not be automatic subscription benefits, so subscribers can also buy and spend Skymetal Bits if they wish.

I personally feel that:

a) the benefits for subscribers should 100% trump any benefits that come from paying ala carte
b) subscribers should not be required to invest any more money into the store than they already have with their subscription dollars.

What I'm saying is that I feel that as a subscriber, I should have access to everything the game has to offer - even the cosmetic silly stuff that'll be offered in the store.

So tell me, GoblinWorks, how will you be keeping your subscribers happy? How will you make us feel special? How can subscribers feel that they are getting the most out of the game by making regular & repeated 'donations' to the game each month?

----

On a loosely related note:

I'm happy to see that there is no direct way to buy coin with real-world dollars. I feel frustrated when the most powerful characters in the game belong to those with the most real-world dollars. I don't want to rant and sound like I'm complaining about life not being fair. I'm just saying that it's frustrating when your in-game skills are determined by the size of your wallet. PFO seems to be attempting to avoid this, and I'm glad for that!

However, I do have my reserves about the idea of being able to sell the skill training for coin. This seems to merely make it 'slightly more difficult' for players to purchase coin with their Skymetal.

Goblin Squad Member

My understanding of the things available with Skymetal Bits that don't come with a standard subscription are things that are cosmetic in nature/above and beyond playing.

Goblin Squad Member

Hroderich Gottfrei wrote:
My understanding of the things available with Skymetal Bits that don't come with a standard subscription are things that are cosmetic in nature/above and beyond playing.

I would sincerely hope so. However, what about "Things like having multiple characters" (quoted from the same blog entry)? This 'seems' like something that could only be unlocked by paying extra Skymetal bits above and beyond a subscription. Unless this has been addressed elsewhere, I'm wondering if these will be somehow unlocked when you are a subscriber. For that matter, if they are unlocked with a subscription, and you suddenly stop subscribing, are these extra characters suddenly inaccessable? Deleted, even?

Even still, I would feel "shorted" these extra cosmetic items, if they were not already included in the subscription. Like somehow the ala carte payers would be more rewarded for their one-time contributions, than the collective monthly dollars a subscriber had spent up until that point.

I may sound very selfish here, but again I feel like the subscribers should be the most important player base that an MMO has.

Goblin Squad Member

With regard to having multiple characters, you'll be able to purchase more training time, which you can allocate to those extra characters. If you're successful enough in getting Coins with your main and alt, you might/should be able to fund training for multiple characters.

Again, this is my understanding of sub/mtx, but your subscription pays for training/the game in general. Paying through mtx will net you the same stuff (I imagine paying via MTX will cost about the same or maybe more), but both groups will have to spend more to get the extra cosmetic stuff.

So if subscriptions cost $X per month and purchasing training through MTX costs $X per month, the cosmetic stuff would have their own above-and-beyond values. That's how I've interpreted the information the devs have given so far, anyway - and I could be completely wrong.

I don't think the Devs necessarily want to favor one group over the other, but I could see subscriptions being cheaper in larger chunks - it gets the Devs more capital to work with and helps shift the time-priority of the money in their favor. But favoring subscribers over MTX players might put a soft chokehold on MTX players, something I doubt they want to do. I see both options as being equally viable.

Goblin Squad Member

Hroderich Gottfrei wrote:
With regard to having multiple characters, you'll be able to purchase more training time, which you can allocate to those extra characters. If you're successful enough in getting Coins with your main and alt, you might/should be able to fund training for multiple characters.
This is loosely my understanding as well. However, from the sounds of this part in the blog:
Quote:

You'll use Skymetal Bits to purchase four kinds of things:

1.) Enhancements to your account: Things like having multiple characters, paying for skill training, and other premium services

...
...

... you'll only have one character in the game, unless you otherwise purchase an additional character slot.

Hroderich Gottfrei wrote:
Again, this is my understanding of sub/mtx, but your subscription pays for training/the game in general. Paying through mtx will net you the same stuff (I imagine paying via MTX will cost about the same or maybe more), but both groups will have to spend more to get the extra cosmetic stuff.

I somehow feel that subscribers should be granted these extra cosmetic things, as included with a subscription. I may be asking for too much here, however.

Hroderich Gottfrei wrote:
I don't think the Devs necessarily want to favor one group over the other ... ... But favoring subscribers over MTX players might put a soft chokehold on MTX players, something I doubt they want to do. I see both options as being equally viable.

I don't understand why they wouldn't encourage players to subscribe. Personally, I would think that a consistent inflow of money would be more favorable than sporadic payments from MTX players. Perhaps they are expecting more net profit from the MTX players?

Goblin Squad Member

Based on what you found in the Blog, you may be right about multiple characters, but my instincts from trolling these boards indicate otherwise - the MTX purchases will just make it easier to train them up.

Per the cosmetic bonuses, that's specific content created outside of the normal flow of the game with much lower demand than the rest - I'd rather they dedicate my subscription money (I prefer subscription over MTX, personally) to mechanics/new playable content. But that's just me.

When it comes to subscribers vs MTX paying players, I believe (and this is one of those shadowy, nebulous "I think I read this once, but I could also be talking out of my backside" beliefs - I'll try to find evidence to support this and throw a link in) that microtransactions tend to be easier to get out of people than subscriptions. On pay day, I'm more likely to blow a couple extra bucks above and beyond what I normally would because my cost/value calculations are skewed by the emotional boost of having just been paid; I imagine the same goes for a majority of other people. Paying $5 for something once in a while (and getting an immediate return) generates a physiological response in your body where endorphins get released; it's literally addictive due to your brain chemistry. This phenomenon has been researched when it comes to impulse shopping in physical stores, and has been shown to have similar weight in online purchases (though diminished, since I have to wait for my stuff to arrive - except for things like MTX's in games, where the payoff is immediate). MTX will largely tend to supplement the backbone of subscribers who provide a constant and expected flow of capital, but will also account for surges in money - especially whenever specials/holidays are coming up. I see this a lot in League of Legends when new material gets released and there's a flurry of purchases made.

MTX is a way also to provide access to the game for people whose financial situation may not be stable enough to bank on always having that $X per month to put into the game, while enabling them to continue enjoying it. Or, if you can use MTX to pay for smaller increments than a month, a way to try out the game for less money/give a potential player the ability to play on your account with another character for 15 days and see if they are interested enough to subscribe. My examples here are just a few I'm spitballing and in no way represent the actual intentions, which you'll have to get from a Dev.

Goblin Squad Member

And I appreciate your insight. I think you are definitely touching on a realistic phenomenon, with the idea of the instant gratification that MTX provides.

I just don't want to feel like I'm "missing out" on these additional 'cool' things (albeit, as you said, likely 100% cosmetic in nature), just because I don't feel like paying additional dollars above and beyond my monthly subscription.

It seems that we'll definitely have to get an answer directly from GoblinWorks regarding what exactly will be included in this "above and beyond". And as for the subject of additional character slots - has this been discussed anywhere else on the messageboards? It seems like a rather important subject.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm cruising the threads searching for an answer for you right now so I can quote a dev. =]

I don't mind too much missing out on the cool things, probably because I know I will eventually break down and buy them if I want them enough.

Goblin Squad Member

This is the best information I could find, but I'm not seeing any Dev answers in it thus far.

Goblin Squad Member

Hroderich Gottfrei wrote:

I'm cruising the threads searching for an answer for you right now so I can quote a dev. =]

I don't mind too much missing out on the cool things, probably because I know I will eventually break down and buy them if I want them enough.

Heh, this might be the same for me as well. :P

Also, I must say I appreciate the thoughtful responses, instead of passing my concerns off as "some whiny brat that doesn't want to pay extra money for cool stuff."

Goblin Squad Member

@Aou, there was some relevant discussion in the thread Never punish a player for using a single account..

Unfortunately, there's still a lot we don't know about how many characters we'll be able to make without having to pay an additional cost, or about what there will be "above and beyond" the subscription in the Cash Shop.

I would urge you to heed Ryan's advice from Please don't make the game Free To Play!:

Ryan Dancey wrote:

I'm not really commenting on Pathfinder Online in specific, but I can tell you by far the overwhelming momentum in the MMO space is for games to allow players to spend money to be mechanically better than those who do not.

You don't have to like it, but you should get used to it. It will be the new normal.

Goblin Squad Member

Your concerns appear legitimate to me. My character might end up being an arrogant bruiser concerned only with breaking shield walls and cloaking himself in glory, but as a player (and someone seriously interested in this game flying high), it behooves me to try to help answer questions. That being said, Nihimon is probably the most informed person outside of the Devs I've seen on these boards.

Goblin Squad Member

See? He's on top of everything in a way I'm aspiring to catch up to. :P

CEO, Goblinworks

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@Aou - there will be things you may wish to buy in the cash store even as a subscriber. The reason is simple: Some people will pay us more than the cost of a monthly subscription if we let them. So we're going to let them.

Over the longer term we expect to do a lot of content ourselves and potentially with partners that you'll pay to play. But it will all be optional "adventure module" style content; self-contained highly scripted PvE content. (Just to stop the rumor before it starts: Yes, there will be lots of PvE "adventure" content provided outside the cash store, and cash-store adventure content is a long, long, long way off.)

Our commitment to the subscribers is that nothing people buy in the cash store will make their characters meaningfully better in the game than the value subscribers automatically get.

A subscription will buy you a month (or a multiple of months depending on how you buy it) of training time. You'll be able to split that time across as many characters as you wish(*), but they train in series, not in parallel. To enable more than one character on an account to train in parallel you'll have to pay extra - either in the form of additional subscription time, or via training time purchased in the cash store.

RyanD

(*)We may discover some system limit that makes having infinite characters on an single account prohibitive, but I can't imagine that the limit would be meaningful except to people who just want to push the limit of the system to see where it breaks.

Goblin Squad Member

I love how quick GW is to come in and clarify things when we get them twisted.

My understanding, after Ryan's post is:

You can play for free, but won't be able to train your character's skills.

You can subscribe and get 30 days of training per month, divisible by character and done IN SERIES (15 days for my main, then 10 for my first alt, then 5 for my second alt).

You can purchase training time via MTX, allocatable as you desire - an additional 30 days of training I could give to my characters, effectively giving my main 30 days of training cocurrently with 20 days of training for my first alt and 10 days of training for my second. If I wanted to, I could purchase another chunk of training and give all three of my characters 30 days of training time in that month concurrently - but I will have to pay more money for this convenience.

Effectively, as a subscriber purchasing training via MTX I'd be paying for the convenience of leveling skills for multiple characters at the same time instead of all of my characters more slowly, yes?

CEO, Goblinworks

@Hroderich Gottfrei - our thoughts on "playing for free" are evolving. There will be some form of free play, that's a requirement in today's market where people want to try an MMO before they put in any money.

How long you can play without paying anything is something we're thinking about. We don't want a game full of folks who trained for 6 months, got reasonably competent, and are now playing without producing any revenue.

Goblin Squad Member

I can wholeheartedly agree with that - I don't want to see the game suffer because of abuse of generosity.

Perhaps limit the play time of free-to-play characters to X hours per month, starting at the full amount the month covers and dropping by 20% each month? That way you'd effectively go from 30 days of play time to 24 days of play time to 18/12/6/0, meaning you'd have to start subscribing/purchasing on the sixth month or your account will go inactive? The hourly equivalent could be 150/120/90/60/30/0 or something similar. I don't know how difficult that would be to implement.

Alternatively, you could set some hard time amount where if you're still trying to play after that, you need to subscribe/make an MTX purchase for game-time. That might be simpler, but these are all going to be complicated and out of my depth for an elegant solution.

Goblin Squad Member

@Ryan: Thanks for the quick response - you've answered my initial questions completely. I'm very glad to see that you're providing subscribers with all of the mechanical benefits available, and I do see the need to keep that "something more" around for those that want to spend even more money on the game than their monthly subscriptions. After all, why turn away more money?

I've seen some details hinted here and there about the adventure modules "add-ons", and this most recent post certainly confirms suspicions and rumors that already existed. These modules sound like a great idea, however as I share this information with my friends, another question arose about these. Would purchasing (and of course completing) these modules allow a character to become more powerful than someone who opts not to ever purchase one of these? Would this be another opportunity of "more dollars = more power" ?

Considering the way character skills will be leveling (at a theoretical maximum rate), my assumption is that character progression could in no-way be accelerated by purchasing/completing these modules. I would further assume that the only bonus tangible benefits (outside of the experience, the gained lore, and the general awesome fun from completing these) would be loot/gear, and maybe merit badges that would otherwise be cosmetic in nature. If this is correct, then my friends would have absolutely no issues here.

Regarding the multiple character slots (specifically the skill progression system you detailed) - this seems like a perfectly legit way to control the issue of character progression, while still providing a tangible benefit to those who wish to spend more money on the game. That's awesome for those who want to have alts that are just as powerful as their mains.

In fact, the idea of controlling the speed of skill progression seems like an excellent way to control the speed in which characters will gain power in the game, keeping to the original ideals of players not seeing lvl20 archetypes running around until 2+ yrs into the game. Bravo!

In regards to the maximum number of character slots per account, I would caution you: please put a reasonable limit here. Too many times have I joined an MMO "late" (even if only by a few months after release), and it is already difficult to obtain a "good" character name. In many F2P MMO's in which it is easy to create an unlimited number of free characters (or free accounts for that matter, if there's a character-per-account limit), it quickly becomes impossible to have a character name that is a word in the English language, or even both foreign and domestic names in general. I understand that most game developers would encourage unique and creative names, but there's a limit before names become just a bunch of garbled characters or otherwise a frustrated faceroll on the keyboard. I've seen it to where the game's name generators can no longer reliably produce a name that is not already taken, and that's truly ridiculous, really.

That being said, I would again recommend a reasonable limit on the number of characters that each paid account is allowed - if not for any other reason apart from maintaining the reasonable availability of "good" character names.

Goblin Squad Member

the good thing though is that even free players (up to a point, you dont want everyone playing free), even those who do not buy MT, can help by filling the game world with people and by creating demand for in game goods. This provides a better world for those people who will pay for MT and subs, thus encouraging them to keep buying.

thats also why i think that having something unique, such as an out of game skill trainer, for subs is a good idea. There are people who are comfortable paying a monthly fee and i think its a good idea to encourage that.

For example what im likely to do is have a sub and train my main fighty guy, then also buy time to fully train another character but would be crafting focused.

CEO, Goblinworks

@Aou - the purpose of the "modules" will not be to add power to the characters who play them. It will be to give those characters interesting new things to do with the power they already have.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
@Aou - the purpose of the "modules" will not be to add power to the characters who play them. It will be to give those characters interesting new things to do with the power they already have.

Will modules be replayable once bought/unlocked? I'd hate to buy one only to have a computer or connection issue and lose it... or depending on how it looks to others, to have a bunch of other players swarm in once it's opened.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

I am pretty sure the idea is something a kin to a PnP Module. So it will be like a stand alone adventure or one in a series. I would bet they are replayable since they are not a way to add power to a character.

CEO, Goblinworks

@All - the "module" concept is little more than a line in a brainstorming session with an astrix by it that says "want to do this". Not a fleshed out plan of action. That's why I keep caveating it by saying it's a long long long way in the future.


Ryan Dancey wrote:
A subscription will buy you a month (or a multiple of months depending on how you buy it) of training time. You'll be able to split that time across as many characters as you wish(*), but they train in series, not in parallel. To enable more than one character on an account to train in parallel you'll have to pay extra - either in the form of additional subscription time, or via training time purchased in the cash store.

You know this means that it will be more favorable to maintain two or more accounts than multiple characters on the same account for anyone who wants to have more than one competent character?

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

I'm not seeing it, Drejk. It favours neither approach from my sight.

Goblin Squad Member

Drakhan Valane wrote:
I'm not seeing it, Drejk. It favours neither approach from my sight.

I agree with Drakhan.

Also, not to sound like a jerk, but this thread is intended to discuss subscriptions and MTX. Perhaps this would be good to add to this discussion?

Sorry that I got a bit off-topic with the "modules" but this was potentially an important subject for me, being a fan of subscriptions, etc.

@Ryan - thanks for addressing my concerns! I'm fairly confident that as a subscriber, I'm sold. My fellow adventuring buddies are likely the same.


Dakcenturi wrote:
Darsch wrote:
IronVanguard wrote:
Er, none of that information was withheld, that's all been common knowledge for a while now. And is on the Kickstarter page. They certainly haven't been lying.
the newer blog posts are revealing more and more info about the forced pvp i do not like, this bit about the early enrollment requiring a monthly fee is the first i ever saw of it, and i have read everything on the kick starter page. Doesn't matter though damage has been done, opinion has been formed and I'm taking my money and walking the other way.

Just a note on this, if you look at the FAQ:

Will I have to pay a subscription to play the game?

Each reward tier that includes the game client also includes a set amount of game time. After that time is used you'll be required to subscribe in order to continue to log in to the game.
During Beta the game will only be available to subscribers. In the long term we expect to have options for people to use microtransactions instead of subscriptions to play.

As a side note they need to update the FAQ to read During Early Enrollment not during beta since they've updated their terminology most other places.

that particular fact was not on the kickstarter p-age when i fisrt pledged, i later misread, its all irrelevant now as i have re pledged and actually went for the crowd forger pioneer buddy pledge. Thanks for being kinda enough to point that out though, very apreciated even if its been awhile sense it was posted and i am just now seeing it. :)

Also a very special thank you to kakfika (spelling?) as i have forgotten to thank him/her earlier.


Aou wrote:

First post on the messageboards - woo. :P I've played the tabletop with friends for months now, but never knew about the PFO project until yesterday. I've since read the entire blog, I've pledged $100, I'm trying to get my friends together for the Guild package, and I'm now slowly going through messageboard posts that seem important to me.

I've never really been a huge fan of F2P games - or at least I don't feel like investing a lot of time into them. Coming from UO, SWG, WoW, SW:TOR, etc., I'm very used to paying a monthly sub in order to get what I expect from a good MMO:
- good, respectable, and meaningful support
- fast support and short response times
- regular updates (and/or expansions) to the game
- expedient bugfixes
- greater quality in general
- etc.

I know some would argue that these are still possible with F2P games, but I feel that the devs in F2P games are not obligated (as much) to provide these things.

I know the whole F2P vs. Subs argument has gone on for a long time, and I'm sure it's been discussed in great length somewhere on these messageboards. The purpose of my post here is not to spawn some huge repeat argument, but I just want to express that I'm more of a proponent of Subs before I continue my post.

Onward to the real purpose of my post!

I obviously plan to have a subscription to PFO. However, I read this in the blog:

Quote:
Some things in the Skymetal Bit store will not be automatic subscription benefits, so subscribers can also buy and spend Skymetal Bits if they wish.

I personally feel that:

a) the benefits for subscribers should 100% trump any benefits that come from paying ala carte
b) subscribers should not be required to invest any more money into the store than they already have with their subscription dollars.

What I'm saying is that I feel that as a subscriber, I should have access to everything the game has to offer - even the cosmetic silly stuff that'll be offered in the store.

So tell me, GoblinWorks, how will you be...

I'm sorry, but i laughed when you listed those games and i read fast support and short response times. WoW and SWTOR do not have fast support. SWG pre NGE did however, and i like to think UO did/still does, as i remember having tickets answered within minutes of submitting them back when i played my tamer. Anways rest assured GW will have good support, and a monthly subscription will trump micro transactions. PFO is not going to be F2P as it is generally viewed/done. unless your spending money you are not going to advance,at least not past a certain point, it is my understanding however that you can "buy time" with in game currency at some point in the life cycle of this mmo. as far as MTX items subscribers will have to pay extra for i assume it will be random cosmetic items and modules when/if they become available. some of this may have already been answered and i am sorry if i am repeating stuff you have already been replied to with. I came across the new posts such as yours in this thread late and i tend to go along reading and replying to posts as i reach them before getting to the end of the thread...I should probably stop doing that one day. oh well im old and set in my ways and just survived the end of the world (lol) I think i can be humored from time to time ;)


Ryan Dancey wrote:
@Aou - the purpose of the "modules" will not be to add power to the characters who play them. It will be to give those characters interesting new things to do with the power they already have.

Basicly sidestories that are interesting and fun story wise but otherwise provide no real benefit such as gear for completing it? I'm cool with that. not every quest needs a huge reward.


Drakhan Valane wrote:
I'm not seeing it, Drejk. It favours neither approach from my sight.

Ok, I think that I misread Ryan's statement.

Spoiler:
On first reading I understood that if I buy two months of training on the same account I cannot apply them separately to each character's training time and instead they apply to account as a whole.

So I thought it would look like:

1#TTTTTTTTTT----------TTTTTTTTTT--------------------TTTTTTTTTT
2#----------TTTTTTTTTT----------TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT----------

Instead of:

1#TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
2#TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

Goblin Squad Member

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Ryan Dancey wrote:

@Hroderich Gottfrei - our thoughts on "playing for free" are evolving. There will be some form of free play, that's a requirement in today's market where people want to try an MMO before they put in any money.

How long you can play without paying anything is something we're thinking about. We don't want a game full of folks who trained for 6 months, got reasonably competent, and are now playing without producing any revenue.

I really don't think that will happen Ryan. 6 months is enough to get competent but not very good. Anybody who "hangs around" for 3 months without paying will see their character lag behind and not want to stay like that. Keeping them around for 3 months or even 4 entices them to stay involved in the game and gives them more chances to eventually pay more money. I think over the long haul it produces MORE sales.

If after 3 months of "hanging around" somebody still isn't sold on putting more money into their character and advancing it, they are probably leaving the game anyways. Nobody plays a non advancing character for THAT long.

The only place where I could really see the problem is for players that have 2 years old characters that really can do everything they want to do in the game. As far as that problem is concerned I'd say:

a) wait till you come to thast bridge and see just how big a problem it really is.

b) these players have already paid you $350 + for your VIDEO GAME, so cut them a break.

c) The onus is really on you guys to make a game that people want to keep paying for monthly for 3+ years.

Goblin Squad Member

Drejk wrote:
On first reading I understood that if I buy two months of training on the same account I cannot apply them separately to each character's training time and instead they apply to account as a whole.

Indeed, I think it was a misunderstanding. It seems to me that your first example (indicating the serial training - only one character training at a time) - would be correct if the player only had a single subscription on his/her account. Your second example would be possible if he/she had purchased an additional subscription for that same account, or has otherwise obtained more "training time" through MTX or via another player selling his/hers for coin.

Further, it would seem there is no limit to the number of characters on a single account that may train in parallel, so long as you're somehow providing the extra skill training.

Goblin Squad Member

@Ryan

During early enrollment you have said that MT will not be available. Unless i miss my guess a subscription will provide the player with 1 month of training time, which means unless you want to split training, you will only be able to fully train one character per sub.

for those of us who are planning two full characters, will there be a method I could either 1) have two accounts (and pay sub for both of them) or 2) buy training time for a second character during early enrollment?

I really want to be able to have one character dedicated to exploring and monster hunting and another fully dedicated to crafting.

Goblin Squad Member

I want to re-post something that I posted in this thread.

"I am wondering about something, though....

$35 – Adventurer wrote:


Patrons at this level will receive a digital downloadable copy of the Pathfinder Online MMO and an invite to play once the game hits Open Enrollment, a one month game subscription, and a New Player Pack of consumables. In addition, you will be made a member of the Goblin Squad. Goblin Squad members will be identified with a special icon on the Goblinworks messageboards, currently on paizo.com and later on goblinworks.com. The Goblin Squad will receive special alerts letting them know about new information first: announcements, blog posts, concept art, etc. We’ll give special priority to Goblin Squad members throughout the development process. This is your chance to identify yourself to us and to the community as a key supporter of Pathfinder Online.

Emphasis mine.

Now on to my donation level...

$100 – Crowdforger Pioneer wrote:


Patrons at this level get all the Loremaster rewards including a digital downloadable copy of the Pathfinder Online MMO and an invite to become an Early Enrollee in the Beta, a three-month game subscription, a New Player Pack of consumables, and a Pathfinder Alliance Pack. Patrons at this level will be invited to join Early Enrollment in the order that they pledged this level. The first 2,000 will be invited into month number one of Early Enrollment. Once we have reached 2,000 patrons at this level, the next 2,000 will get invites to month two, with the next 2,000 getting invites for month three and so on through the ninth month of Early Enrollment.

Again, emphasis mine.

I am not trying to cause a fuss, but if you run this back, I should get a 3 month sub (now raised to four months) and a new player pack of consumables, whatever that is, for donating at the $100.00 level, and in addition, get an additional 1 month sub and another new player pack of consumables because my donation also gave me the rewards for the previous tiers, which includes the Adventurer rewards.

The new player consumables pack is probably not going to be a big deal.
That extra month, though, is another matter."

Just think that it is something that you may want to look at.


Our commitment to the players is that nothing you can purchase with microtransactions will be mechanically superior to the materials created in-game through character activity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------

Woohoo! I'm so glad you posted this. Pay to win really takes the.fun out of games. Especially for people who play as much as I do!

The PLEX system Eve uses works remarkably well. I really like the way it's handled, and how you can sell them for in game coin on the games market.

Really like many of the ideas that PFO is based on. And many of the features I've been waiting to see in a game!

Goblin Squad Member

In response to Ryan Dancey:
"Our microtransaction system will also allow you to buy some consumables that will make playing the game a bit easier, items that you'll be able to use to make your character look different and interesting, mounts that are distinctive, and other ways of making you stand out from the crowd. Our commitment to the players is that nothing you can purchase with microtransactions will be mechanically superior to the materials created in-game through character activity."

-----------------------------------------------

I have to say that I am 100% against the idea of have any kind of upgrade outside of the game only available through money.

Even if it is cosmetical, it is good to feel that everything within the world is available through gameplay and not through one´s wallet.

Even if gametime is gained through a subscription or other form of payment, I would leave any gains that are shown in the world, within itself.

If you cross this border, you are also breaking immersion. Just my opinion.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Basically I can imagine a common thought in someone´s mind, when some things are not reachable within the world.

"Look at this jerk who thinks he is so cool because he got this flashy <enter cosmetic upgrade item name here> with his real money"

I can imagine a common thought in someone´s mind, when everything is reachable within the world.

"Look at this guy who managed to gain <enter cosmetic upgrade item name here>... he is so cool ! I have to get one to myself, it can´t be so hard...".

Not that this would be my own thoughts, but I imagine that people normally reacts this way to these different situations. I for one, started hating WoW a bit, when some items where only available through the shop... even if they were some silly pets... and then some awesome mounts... and then... well it is frustrating even though I always had plenty of money for it, I didn´t feel comfortable getting it that way... it felt against my principles, so never bought anything and it didn´t feel cool when seen in-game worn by someone else (*golfclap*).

Everything should be achieved in-game, except for the idea of training offline, but that´s actually instructing your character to work while you are away anyway, so it is not technically out of it. It is actually pretty cool and encourages casual players to not be stressed due to not playing all the time and being unable to keep up with others.

Goblin Squad Member

Elynor wrote:

"Look at this jerk who thinks he is so cool because he got this flashy <enter cosmetic upgrade item name here> with his real money"

"Look at this guy who managed to gain <enter cosmetic upgrade item name here>... he is so cool ! I have to get one to myself, it can´t be so hard...".

Goes to a rogue buddy of mine and whispers to him...

"Hey.. see that guy with that fancy <enter cosmetic upgrade item name here>. I'll pay you <random sum> in gold if you 'borrow' it from him to give to me."

Goblin Squad Member

@ryan

I have a few questions about subs.

1) during early enrollment will it be possible to buy enough sub time to fully train two characters or will i need to have two accounts with subscriptions?

2) Will the cost for buying extra time to train an extra character (on the same account) be the same has having two accounts with subs or will it be cheaper? I dont see it being more expensive since that will just encourage people to have more than one account

3) Will there be restrictions on having more than one account?

4) if i pledged early enough in the 100 level to get into the first month of enrollment, but then upped my pledge to the 175 level (but not one of the first 500) will i still be able to get into the first month of early enrollment?

The reason i am asking is that I plan on having two mains - a martial hunter/explorer character and another crafting focused character.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
leperkhaun wrote:

@ryan

I have a few questions about subs.

1) during early enrollment will it be possible to buy enough sub time to fully train two characters or will i need to have two accounts with subscriptions?

2) Will the cost for buying extra time to train an extra character (on the same account) be the same has having two accounts with subs or will it be cheaper? I dont see it being more expensive since that will just encourage people to have more than one account

3) Will there be restrictions on having more than one account?

4) if i pledged early enough in the 100 level to get into the first month of enrollment, but then upped my pledge to the 175 level (but not one of the first 500) will i still be able to get into the first month of early enrollment?

The reason i am asking is that I plan on having two mains - a martial hunter/explorer character and another crafting focused character.

1 and 2 are very good questions, the answers for which I am closely interested in as well. I gave your (and my) post a benign flag in hopes that it will get an official answer.

For 3, I don't think there's any real way they can keep people from having multiple accounts, since people can do all sorts of things including creating fake IDs if they really want to. I think it is better to encourage single accounts by making training time slightly cheaper for alts on a subscription account. Multi-boxers would still create separate accounts, but that would be more costly for them since they wouldn't get the discount.

Question 4 has been answered a few times on the KS comments. Your initial pledge date is preserved for Daily Deal qualification (the earliest date that the pledge was at the 35$ reward tier or above), but your place in line is not preserved for the EE access month. There are currently 102 Crowdforger Buddy slots for the first month, but if you switch up to that and later change back to CF Pioneer, you'd be in the 2nd month.

Goblin Squad Member

leperkhaun wrote:

@ryan

I have a few questions about subs.

1) during early enrollment will it be possible to buy enough sub time to fully train two characters or will i need to have two accounts with subscriptions?

I think that question has to be asked here is, 'what do you mean by 'fully train?" I mean they're looking at 2 YEARS to get a Capstone (I.e. LVL 20) characters.

They will probably have 6 month subs so I guess that'd be plenty of time?

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