Kickstarter Community Thread: Subscriptions & Microtransactions


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Goblin Squad Member

Slaunyeh wrote:
Valkenr wrote:
I prefer pure subscriptions, but this is the way the market is going. You need huge numbers of players to maintain a game on subscriptions alone, and there are simply too many games out there. It worked 5 years ago, but now the slices of pizza are too thin.

Oh, I get why it's happening. I just really really hate that payment model.

Now, if there was a "premium subscription" that'd be ridiculously expensive but include anything and everything the micro-transaction market could ever hold, I would be all over that.

I subscribe to games because I don't want to worry about not having access to content (and yes, "cosmetics" is content. In fact, it's pretty significant content). I don't like when games go out of their way to bully you into subscribing, and then hit you over the head with the micro-transaction market.

I don't want to worry about which parts of the game I want access to. Or manually keep track of how much I've spend so it doesn't go out of hand. That is actively reducing my enjoyment of the game. I find it stressful. I want to be able to pay an upfront subscription and never have to think about it again.

Sadly, stress-free gaming seems to be a thing of the past.

*grumbles*

Most F2P games with subs give you a chunk of game-currency each billing cycle. So you can get the stuff without paying more, but you can't get

all the stuff at once.

Goblin Squad Member

Valkenr wrote:

Most F2P games with subs give you a chunk of game-currency each billing cycle. So you can get the stuff without paying more, but you can't get

all the stuff at once.

I know how they work. I have played most of them at one time or another. The free points just makes the matter worse, as the game is actively pushing you towards the store.

I don't want free points. I want the store to essentially not exist while I'm paying for a subscription. I don't care if it's a 100 dollar/month subscription (okay, mild exaggeration :p) if it means never having to stress over the contents of the store.

(I'd also find this to be a helpful gauge for the developers: is the new gizmo-idea for the store something we're not comfortable giving "premium subscribers" unlimited access to? Why, then it probably isn't something that should exist in an 'optional' store in the first place.)

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
@V'rel Vusoryn - the cost of everything you get with a subscription will be higher if you buy it ala carte via micro transactions.

Hmm, well, I guess that's the missing piece(s), then. So far I've only seen training time as part of what you get. It's everything else a subscription entails that I'm not seeing.

Are you (GW) prepared to talk about that at this time? I assume no as it would have been in the OP. If it is mentioned elsewhere then someone please direct me as it seems I have rolled a 1 on Perception.

Goblin Squad Member

Interesting article at PCGamer on aimbots in PS2 and F2P a/c's:

PCGamer wrote:
but considering PlanetSide 2′s free-to-play structure might allow cheaters to create multiple accounts to prevent banning, we’ll cross our Terran Assault Rifles for sturdy anti-hacker systems.

That is reduced by an initial game download price, which PfO will have is that right?

Goblin Squad Member

@V'rel Vusoryn

You can play the game without a subscription (training time+). I believe the price for a subscription (training time+) will be tiered based on what amount you are willing to pay for at once, much like in other games. Ex:

1 year training time+ - $12/month
6 months training time+ - $13/month
3 months training time+ - $14/month
1 month training time+ - $15/month
30 days training time (in-game item) - $18
15 days training time (in-game item) - ???
etc.

This is just an example, the only number we know is (I think) $15/month has been mentioned. It has also been mentioned that buying time with in-game items will be more expensive.

I also wonder what the training time+ will be, since they aren't giving out Skymetal.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@Decius & Valkenr

There is a subtle difference between selling Skymetal for coin and selling Training Time for coin. One of the reasons Ryan stated for liking the PLEX system is that he can look at how much game time is going into the system and how much Coin it is selling for and adjust the price on it to affect the in-game economy of it.

Of course, he could do the same thing by fluctuating the price of Skymetal, but at that point you're changing the price of various pretty do-hickeys as well as training time.

A new player coming into the game after prices had increased might say "$1.50 for a blue feathered hat? That's highway robbery! /quit."

To combat this, in turn, would require changing the price in Skymetal of all other items whenever they changed the price to buy Skymetal.

So I guess it comes down to the difference between changing the price of Training Time vs changing the $price of Skymetal and the Skymetal price of everything else. One is a little simpler, and causes less confusion/ill-will from players who actively use Skymetal. I don't think GW will sell as much Skymetal this way, but apparently there are good reasons for doing it like that.

I'm assuming also that Skymetal items being 'bound' means they are not tradable (besides Training Time, of course).

Goblin Squad Member

I just think it is very, very, very, very important that people can still PLAY when they are not paying. Limited as it might be with no advancement possible, I do not think you should be locking people that have bought the game and paid subscriptions in the past out of the game entirely. This is triple true for the MMo market that will be by 2014-2015.

Remember that paying monthly is the same as voting with your wallet. Many players will decide that for a month or for a few months they do not want to vote with their wallets for X or Y reason. Lock them out of them game entirely and your chances of getting that person to subscribe ever again have just gone down exponentially. It only take a month to stop caring about a character in a game.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan, will the Training Time that we get via Subscriptions be equivalent to the Training Time we can buy via Microtransactions to the extent that Subscribers will be able to sell their Training Time for in-game Coin?

Goblin Squad Member

avari3 wrote:
I just think it is very, very, very, very important that people can still PLAY when they are not paying.

I agree, and think this is one of the best things about PFO. While we might not be able to do this during Beta / Early Enrollment, it sounds like we'll definitely be able to continue to play even when we're not paying once the game gets to Release / Open Enrollment.

Goblin Squad Member

@avari3 - GW said this on kickstarter comments:

We anticipate a much flatter power curve than theme park MMOs employ. A character with a year's training time and play will be better than, but not utterly dominating to, a small group of new characters played by people who understand the game and know how to make the best use of their Gear and their tactics.

So players that freeze their training, it seems they'll still ft fine in that power curve.

Goblin Squad Member

Kakafika wrote:
I'm assuming also that Skymetal items being 'bound' means they are not tradable (besides Training Time, of course).

I am interested in the answer to this question as well. In general, I think I would prefer the Skymetal items be non-tradable.

Goblin Squad Member

Okay let me see if I understand this correctly. In EVE and here there will be skill training that is based off of real time; i.e. it takes 4 hours to train skill X.

With the Subscription, these skill will be trainable all the time and you will be constantly raising your skills in something.

With MTX, with the currency Skymetal, you can buy time that you are allowed to train skills; i.e. You buy 6 hours of skill training, allowing you to train skill X completely and work on Skill Y for the other 2 hours.

Am I correct in my thoughts, Ryan?

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

If I'm paying a monthly subscription, I would expect to get 28-31 days of training that month, and I would expect not to lose any of that time if I fail to queue up a new skill.

The only way it would be acceptable for me to lose my time if I fail to queue a Skill is if the MTX Training Time also continues to run while no Skills are queued.

Honestly, though, I'd prefer the former - even though I expect the latter.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
If I'm paying a monthly subscription, I would expect to get 28-31 days of training that month, and I would expect not to lose any of that time if I fail to queue up a new skill.

I would expect subscriptions to not give game time, but remove the need to have game time on the account. Otherwise you end up with a surplus, and if there are any '30 day' bonuses the subscription would have to re-up every 30 days.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Nihimon: How would you feel if there was some kind of default training that proceeded if you didn't have anything manually queued?

As it stands, I think that your proposal would require that a subscribed customer who missed one day each month of training for a year would simply have 12 days of skill training time after they terminated their subscription. For those 12 days to be valuable to the former subscriber seems like a very edge case.

Goblin Squad Member

@Decius, yeah, I had to go back and edit my post right after I hit submit, to add the "even though I expect the latter".

The more I think about it, the more my own design instincts tell me that the subscriber should just have Training always available, and the Training Time MTX items should have a set time associated with them that starts ticking down when you click them.

So, not only do I "expect" the latter, I actually think that's the "right" design...

Goblin Squad Member

I just want to check if I'm understanding this correctly with a scenario:
I back at $100 and get 4 months subscription, and play for 4 months in Beta. Then I don't pay for any more subscription time.
Now, when open enrollment hits, can I log in and play the character that I played in Beta? And if I do, can I work and earn coins to buy training time?

Goblin Squad Member

Grifta wrote:

I just want to check if I'm understanding this correctly with a scenario:

I back at $100 and get 4 months subscription, and play for 4 months in Beta. Then I don't pay for any more subscription time.
Now, when open enrollment hits, can I log in and play the character that I played in Beta? And if I do, can I work and earn coins to buy training time?

Yes, but the length of the beta is unknown, though no less than 9 months.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks for the clarification. And, that is awesome for anyone with monthly fluctuating free-time.

Goblin Squad Member

Has GW said which character(s) in a subscription get(s) the training time?

I'm guessing that those who buy training via MTX, or who buy with gold the time that others bought via MTX, get the training on the character which owns and uses the time tokens. What I'm wondering about is how many characters on an account can train at once. Would we have to pick one? If so, could we buy more training slots so we can have more characters training concurrently with an active subscription, or would we be limited to the choice to either get MTX time for them or let them sit dormant?

Goblin Squad Member

Something I'm curious about right now is how subscriptions work with alt characters. Far as I can guess right now, subscriptions give time for one character, and I'd have to buy (skymetal or coin) time for any alt characters I'd like to play.
If so, it'd be nice to just up the subscription a bit to get time for a second character.

Goblin Squad Member

I beleive you can have multiple characters per account, no word that I've seen on how many, but only one can be actively training at a time.

Time would be per account, not per character and you can split it amongst the characters on your account as you see fit.

(This btw is how eve works, with a limit of 3 chars per account if I remember correctly)

If you want to train to characters at the same time you would need two accounts.

(This is also how eve works, people have multiple accounts for different activities (missions, pvp, crafting)

Goblin Squad Member

I believe Mr. Dancey had hinted that he sees no reason to make you get a second account for more training. I got the impression IronVanguard's request was close to how it would work.

Goblin Squad Member

Drakhan Valane wrote:
I believe Mr. Dancey had hinted that he sees no reason to make you get a second account for more training. I got the impression IronVanguard's request was close to how it would work.

While that would be nice, you can't dual box with 1 account unless they intend to allow you to log in more then 1 character at a time?

If craft farming is anything like eve mining it will be too boring and tedious, like having a 2nd job, to do without being able to dual box a real toon actually doing something.

Goblin Squad Member

They haven't made any official announcements yet about how many characters they're going to allow per account during Beta, or whether or not you'll be able to pay an additional subscription to train a 2nd character full time.

I think it's a fairly safe bet that you'll be able to create a 2nd character at least, and choose which to train at any given time.

Goblin Squad Member

@Summersnow

I think you will be pleased to see the information contained in the blogpost Butchers, Bakers, and Candlestick Makers!

I also recommend reading the dev posts in the corresponding thread, as they give a good amount of clarification to points they made in the blog :)


Ryan Dancey wrote:
Valkenr wrote:


In Early Enrollment you must have a subscription to log in, the subscription includes training time.

In Open Enrollment you don't need a subscription to log in, but you must purchase skill training to advance your character.

This is the current plan.

so basically my invite for the $100 dollar level to early enrollment (beta) that includes four months of game time is going to require me to use that four months game time during my time in beta,( which should really be called what it is, kick starters get to play the game anywhere from 1 month to 9 months before everyone else for backing the game but will need to still pay that monthly fee, so we are going to rip you off worse then any other mmo maker out there) Yeah, you guys can keep your PFO and you your kick starter, I'm going to go ahead and stop my pledge now that I'm getting the same sinking feeling I get every time someone withholds information, lies, or otherwise tries to cheat me. Never mind the fact i just can't agree with the game design direction PFO is heading, its sou nding less and less like Pathfinder and more and more like eve online mixed with gankfest of the month forced pvp b$~&**~%

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Er, none of that information was withheld, that's all been common knowledge for a while now. And is on the Kickstarter page. They certainly haven't been lying.


IronVanguard wrote:

Something I'm curious about right now is how subscriptions work with alt characters. Far as I can guess right now, subscriptions give time for one character, and I'd have to buy (skymetal or coin) time for any alt characters I'd like to play.

If so, it'd be nice to just up the subscription a bit to get time for a second character.

Or better yet not to rip us off and force us to pay more for each additional character on the same account!


IronVanguard wrote:
Er, none of that information was withheld, that's all been common knowledge for a while now. And is on the Kickstarter page. They certainly haven't been lying.

the newer blog posts are revealing more and more info about the forced pvp i do not like, this bit about the early enrollment requiring a monthly fee is the first i ever saw of it, and i have read everything on the kick starter page. Doesn't matter though damage has been done, opinion has been formed and I'm taking my money and walking the other way.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Bye!

Goblin Squad Member

Jiminy wrote:
Bye!

No need to feed the drama trolling. The "taking my ball and going home" displays may be annoying, but a pseudocheerful 'last word' is too.

Goblin Squad Member

What can I say? I'm a cheery sort of guy.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Lol Jiminy!

I just can't understand how people can get so worked up without even bothering to look for answers or understand what's going on. There are so many assumptions and so much incorrect information in his post, it's obvious that he hasn't.

So far, I think I've seen 7 posts by him, none of them asking a single question... *boggled*


Kakafika wrote:

Lol Jiminy!

I just can't understand how people can get so worked up without even bothering to look for answers or understand what's going on. There are so many assumptions and so much incorrect information in his post, it's obvious that he hasn't.

So far, I think I've seen 7 posts by him, none of them asking a single question... *boggled*

No I never asked a single question because I did not need to.

The fault is my own however because I somehow missed some of the information in the blogs, probably from getting distracted by other things happening in my house. When I did discover the information, by the way the beta subscription stuff was an update to the kick starter page it originally was not there when i decided to make my pledge and did not think to double check it again before making my pledge, I admittedly over reacted on the forums. so I apologize for that.

I'm still however not backing this project unless I see something absolutely amazing about the game that makes me want to play it regardless of my reservations about the pvp system and the beta that they are asking us to pledge to get into then pay a monthly subscription for after our "free time" is up. why would anyone pay a monthly subscription for an incomplete game is absolutely mind boggling to me.

Goblin Squad Member

They have made it quite clear, but your assumptions have one big flaw. The Early Enrollment aka (Beta) is not a true Beta. The game will be completed but will allow supporters to build up communities for the regular release of the game.

They should've used another word besides Beta to remove the confusion that you seem to have.

Goblin Squad Member

As the blogs have mentioned (What to Expect From Early Access Beta), It is not a "help us find the bugs!" beta. It is a beta where everything is functional (if not necessarily finalized) but not all features have necessarily been turned on. It's an opportunity to help shape the game when it releases to all. In fact, since there is no wipe at the end of the beta period, you actually have a leg up on people joining at open enrollment.

Imagine if Guild Wars 2 had promised Guild Halls and didn't have them upon release, so we had to wait for a patch to enable them . . . oh wait. That's exactly what happened. ^_^

Goblin Squad Member

@Darsch, Well that is quite gentlemanly of you, sir.

For what it's worth, I can appreciate where you are coming from. Since the kickstarter began two weeks ago, many others had similar reservations about many of the same aspects of the game and kickstarter that you are referencing. Much of it is due to the somewhat inaccessible nature of information that might change their views.

I'm confident that you will have a very different view of what PFO will be if you look through the threads that deal with your specific concerns and the posts made in other threads starting in December. Like I said, many of your same concerns have been addressed to the best of the devs' and the community's ability.

I only hope we can convince you that it is worth the (admittedly not insignificant) time it would take to learn more :)

EDIT: Also searching the many pages of Kickstarter comments for "Goblinworks Inc" will get you some answers to concerns posted there.


Banesama wrote:

They have made it quite clear, but your assumptions have one big flaw. The Early Enrollment aka (Beta) is not a true Beta. The game will be completed but will allow supporters to build up communities for the regular release of the game.

They should've used another word besides Beta to remove the confusion that you seem to have.

yet they openly said with the vote for next race to be implemented at launch would not be in early release, that is an intended race, its core race Thankfully that said upfront not all the core races and possibly not all of the core classes ( or what ever they will be called considering the skill up system that at first reminded me of star wars galaxies preNGE wow clone) will be available at launch much less early access. GW also has said early access it to get feedback (a beta thing)to help guide content development for "Release" so yeah incomplete game. They are doing an alpha test, lots of bugs tend to always make it past alpha, so there will be bug squishing during this early enrollment/beta phase regardless of how much GW tries to avoid it. It would be naive to think otherwise. Simple fact of life crap happens, no one is perfect, and sometimes things slip past that never should have. I commend the effort though.


Kakafika wrote:

@Darsch, Well that is quite gentlemanly of you, sir.

For what it's worth, I can appreciate where you are coming from. Since the kickstarter began two weeks ago, many others had similar reservations about many of the same aspects of the game and kickstarter that you are referencing. Much of it is due to the somewhat inaccessible nature of information that might change their views.

I'm confident that you will have a very different view of what PFO will be if you look through the threads that deal with your specific concerns and the posts made in other threads starting in December. Like I said, many of your same concerns have been addressed to the best of the devs' and the community's ability.

I only hope we can convince you that it is worth the (admittedly not insignificant) time it would take to learn more :)

EDIT: Also searching the many pages of Kickstarter comments for "Goblinworks Inc" will get you some answers to concerns posted there.

I tend to do a lot of extensive reading and research before i post, I could have misinterpreted things, but at this time i think im just going to keep an eye on the game and see what new info comes out before the end of the kickstarter in Jan. there is still awhile before it ends and a lot could change by then. But anyways, enough getting off topic of the thread.

Goblin Squad Member

@Darsch, Most full-releases of games are buggy, too. I don't see how that particular point makes sense in this case. As for feedback, GW has always solicited community feedback, from the very beginning. Many of us here, myself included, have seen systems (or aspects of systems) designed right here by ourselves put into the game.

Anyway, I'm glad you will be following the project. It has been my experience over the past two weeks that over half of the people that continue to engage the community on the forums and keep looking at new information end up supporting the kickstarter. Many of the most active contributors right now have only been here for two weeks! Even if you don't have enough faith in GW to pledge in the kickstarter, I hope you take a look at player and gaming site reviews of early-access, or more importantly, the full release of the game.


Kakafika wrote:

@Darsch, Most full-releases of games are buggy, too. I don't see how that particular point makes sense in this case. As for feedback, GW has always solicited community feedback, from the very beginning. Many of us here, myself included, have seen systems (or aspects of systems) designed right here by ourselves put into the game.

Anyway, I'm glad you will be following the project. It has been my experience over the past two weeks that over half of the people that continue to engage the community on the forums and keep looking at new information end up supporting the kickstarter. Many of the most active contributors right now have only been here for two weeks! Even if you don't have enough faith in GW to pledge in the kickstarter, I hope you take a look at player and gaming site reviews of early-access, or more importantly, the full release of the game.

honestly if I see it can bring back my glory days of SWG and UO minus the flaws that eventually made me detest UO i will probably see you all in game, just to early to know for sure right now.

Goblin Squad Member

@Darsch, I really think you are going to like this game. I know the threads are long, and I caution you that there are a lot of people that posted there without doing the sort of research you do before posting, but I highly recommend you read the extremely long PvP threads, especially the one started by Ryan Dancey.

There is a lot of good info in those, and you will notice that many of the people that began posting with concerns about the PvP systems that GW has in the works eventually changed their feelings on the matter and started trying to draw other PvE-focused people into the game.

My posts in those threads also describe my thoughts of how the PvP systems GW has designed have changed and evolved, based on my perspective as a PvP-lover.

EDIT: Also, please forgive the community for losing patience occasionally!

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Keep abreast of the new developments. It might be that the early enrollment program isn't right for you, and there is nothing wrong with that. I would recommend that everyone keep an outlook of cautious optimism, and vary the ratio of caution to optimism.

Angry ragequitting posts don't do anyone any good, nor do passive-aggressive replies to those posts. What is good for the community is a simple explanation of our concerns and confusions, and a frank recognition that PFO is not the perfect game for anyone.

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

Darsch wrote:
IronVanguard wrote:
Er, none of that information was withheld, that's all been common knowledge for a while now. And is on the Kickstarter page. They certainly haven't been lying.
the newer blog posts are revealing more and more info about the forced pvp i do not like, this bit about the early enrollment requiring a monthly fee is the first i ever saw of it, and i have read everything on the kick starter page. Doesn't matter though damage has been done, opinion has been formed and I'm taking my money and walking the other way.

Just a note on this, if you look at the FAQ:

Will I have to pay a subscription to play the game?

Each reward tier that includes the game client also includes a set amount of game time. After that time is used you'll be required to subscribe in order to continue to log in to the game.
During Beta the game will only be available to subscribers. In the long term we expect to have options for people to use microtransactions instead of subscriptions to play.

As a side note they need to update the FAQ to read During Early Enrollment not during beta since they've updated their terminology most other places.

Goblin Squad Member

Im a little confused here, i must be missing something key.
When you do the kickstarter and get your 4 months subscription, this is used up when you are playing in closed beta?

I was under the impression that you only need to start paying when the game was released....

Can someone direct me to the appropriate posts to clear this up?

EDIT----------------
https://goblinworks.com/blog/index.html#20121130

Its a paid beta..... wow.

Not what i was expecting when i pledged. It looks more like its just an early release vs a beta. I mean I've closed beta some MMOs before, were its a buggy game and you work with the dev team to help adjust/fine tune difficulty in encounters, economy values and other similar game mechanics. GMs change your level and inventory according to what needs to be tested and you 'pay' with your time and reports.

Im really very disappointed by this paid beta / early release. Very. I was so looking forward to actually beta testing this.

Goblin Squad Member

@Spahrep: Why don't you suggest to GW's your interest in actual bug-testing specifically: Afterall this "Crowdforging" is sorta a 2-way street: So start running with it, why not? :)

Scarab Sages Goblinworks Executive Founder

If you want to bug test you could always jump on board with us Alpha testers :D

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

@AvenaOats - after re-reading the plegde levels etc, I'm assuming that the crowdfoger Alpha and or paid testers will be covering this aspect.

I guess the use of the word has just changed over time in the industry from what it was 20 years ago. I can remeber having to sign NDAs, fill in weekly reports and actually test during 'beta testing'. Now it seems like its a preview or a demo more then a beta, this isnt specific to golbin works or this game.
I'll forward my views on to goblin works anyway as I like what they have planned for the game.

Goblin Squad Member

Yes I did Beta testing for a living back in the 90's, rather enjoyed it. :-)

Daniel.

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