I have a Two-Weapon Warrior that uses Twin Bastard Swords. He also has the Critical Feats and Weapon Focus line of Feats.
He currently DPRs for more damage than our Barbarian. Even before criticals.
That said if you want I have the Class Chart done. or nearly done.
Umm, yea, because bastard swords are better than scimtars? Or because you use better feats than anyone else here?
What makes the Scimitar so good?
And I wasn't making any assertions or anything of the kind.
Idk, sorry, I'm just annoyed by this board sometimes, dont take it personally.
Idk, sorry, I'm just annoyed by this board sometimes, dont take it personally.
I know the feeling...
Though I never understand why people love the Scimitar other than for Flavor and Appearances.
More profit from crit feats. Thats the only advantage of playing TWF builds later on:P
More profit from crit feats. Thats the only advantage of playing TWF builds later on:P
I never realized that Scimitars have such a good crit range...
I might use them next time my group use the Crit/Fumble Decks.
Umm, yea, because bastard swords are better than scimtars? Or because you use better feats than anyone else here?
Bastard swords can work very well if your offhand is a Sun Blade, since it can count as a short sword a.k.a a light weapon. Plus the fact that dual-wielding bastard swords gets you way more cool points than dual-wielding scimitars.
Umm, yea, because bastard swords are better than scimtars? Or because you use better feats than anyone else here?Bastard swords can work very well if your offhand is a Sun Blade, since it can count as a short sword a.k.a a light weapon. Plus the fact that dual-wielding bastard swords gets you way more cool points than dual-wielding scimitars.
EWP(Bastard Sword) with the Two-Weapon Warrior Archetype can do it cheaper.
Umm, yea, because bastard swords are better than scimtars? Or because you use better feats than anyone else here?Bastard swords can work very well if your offhand is a Sun Blade, since it can count as a short sword a.k.a a light weapon. Plus the fact that dual-wielding bastard swords gets you way more cool points than dual-wielding scimitars.
If you're willing to take a -4 penalty to hit for using non-light weapons.
Also, most magic weapons and items don't exist in the Iron Kingdoms.
@Umbral Reaver: The Sun Blade counts as a Light Weapon. which means only a -2 penalty.
TWW Archetype is a Major boon for anyone not wanting to sacrifice Damage do to using Light Weapons.
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.. Are twin scimitars not good?
1d6 Damage is OK, isnt it? For a light weapon?
Scimitars are not light weapons...so twin scimitars are gonna suck up -4/-4. I believe two weapon archetype can reduce this somewhat...but that means -2/-2 vs. no penalty...and that is at level 15. You get a -1 reduction at 11. You can make it work if you REALLY want to and if you have access to the right magical items...
In anycase, you will STILL want UMD...maxed, with feats to boost it. At higher levels, scrolls of giantform 1 or 2 will let you do bad bad things with your fighter. This of course assume iron kingdom has normal access to magical items...like scrolls. Completely unfamiliar with the setting.
Why do you need magical items?
I have a TWW Fighter that has out done most 2H Warriors.
This was with a 25 Point Buy. I can do the same with a 20 Point Buy.
It just requires you to be smart to pick the right feats.
.. Are twin scimitars not good?
1d6 Damage is OK, isnt it? For a light weapon?Scimitars are not light weapons...so twin scimitars are gonna suck up -4/-4. I believe two weapon archetype can reduce this somewhat...but that means -2/-2 vs. no penalty...and that is at level 15. You get a -1 reduction at 11. You can make it work if you REALLY want to and if you have access to the right magical items...
In anycase, you will STILL want UMD...maxed, with feats to boost it. At higher levels, scrolls of giantform 1 or 2 will let you do bad bad things with your fighter. This of course assume iron kingdom has normal access to magical items...like scrolls. Completely unfamiliar with the setting.
Scrolls do exist. Magic items cost 50% extra and the creator risks losing hit points permanently (and with high cost items or crafting multiple items could even die). These lost hit points can never be recovered, perhaps save for wish, which is only castable at one well-guarded place in the whole world.
Magic items that run on what are basically magic batteries do exist but have limited charges and require technological skill to build and recharge.
The only magic item my Fighter currently relies on is magical weapons.
Not to say he probably won't end up with a Belt of Physical Perfection or such.
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I'm curious, why TWF and not just Two-Handed Fighting?
Two-Weapon Fighting is inferior to Two-Handed Fighting for the most part, for a Fighter, because of how the math ends up working out. The reason Two-Weapon Fighting is awesome on a Rogue is because of the extra Sneak Attack Damage that piles on top of the two weapons attacking.
The system of Pathfinder/3rd Edition was not built with the idea "low magic" or "no magic". Characters are balanced against each other by wealth and magic items. To not have either of those things does in fact significantly change the suggestions we can give you.
If you are set on doing TWF, I would suggest two Kukris, because of their high crit range. Spend a feat slot on Improved Critical for Kukris once you're high enough level.
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I have a TWW Fighter that has out done most 2H Warriors.
This was with a 25 Point Buy. I can do the same with a 20 Point Buy.
It just requires you to be smart to pick the right feats.
And what level is this? How optimized are you vs. the 2H warriors you are comparing to? This is why anecdotal evidence...especially vague ones like this is rather useless for anything honestly. Post your build and the other 2H warriors and we can see if there is anything to what you claim.
Str 15+2+1, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 11
Ranger3 Fighter1
TWF, Exotic double bladed sword, weapon focus, doubleslice, power attack, endurance
Favored enemy undead.
Standard action +7(1d8+12)
Full attack +7(1d8+4) or +5(1d8+8) twice
Extra +2 to hit and damage vs undead
Fort+7, Ref+6, Will+3... lose 2 damage from the off hand attack for +2 will saves if you switch double slice for iron will..
If spells aren't wanted, skirmisher next level, but ranger spells are pretty nifty.
Stick with ranger to have a badass wolf companion (boon companion feat), favored enemy evil outsider, and a variety of tricks.
Switch to fighter TWF or weaponmaster for mastery of the blade.
Ranger is not available in Iron Kingdoms. It is replaced with the 'Scout' class, which doesn't get the same things. I don't actually remember what the IK scout has. I think it was more focused on leading into rifleman or something.
And what level is this? How optimized are you vs. the 2H warriors you are comparing to? This is why anecdotal evidence...especially vague ones like this is rather useless for anything honestly. Post your build and the other 2H warriors and we can see if there is anything to what you claim.I have a TWW Fighter that has out done most 2H Warriors.
This was with a 25 Point Buy. I can do the same with a 20 Point Buy.
It just requires you to be smart to pick the right feats.
Yea, this is exactly what made me mad earlier as well... Seriously...
@Cold_Napalm: They are all my characters they aren't Optimized or Min-Maxed but they aren't worthless.
They use pretty much all of the standard Optimization basics but with some fluff feats thrown in.
The one I really noticed:
My TWW vs My THF.
Comparing them at Levels 5, 10, 15, & 20.
My TWW was dealing an average of 3 Damage more. Now the THF was ahead by 2 Damage at Level 1.
Strangely, I found that the THF was landing fewer attacks than my TWW normally landed.
I can't find the Character Sheets otherwise I would post the builds.
You know, fighter builds are pretty simple - depending on what way you go everyone has an idea about the damage the character does because all optimized builds have to use the same feats, so there are no mysterious builds who are better than the regular optimized ones. So you have damage caps for every char, build and level what makes it really easy to compare. Thats where you can see that a THF fighter deals more DPR than a TWF one.
Depends on what they use. Heck, Different book availability effects what the PC has access to.
And? The cap power of any given class is still determined and in case of simple melee builds obvious.
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@Cold_Napalm: They are all my characters they aren't Optimized or Min-Maxed but they aren't worthless.
They use pretty much all of the standard Optimization basics but with some fluff feats thrown in.
The one I really noticed:
My TWW vs My THF.
Comparing them at Levels 5, 10, 15, & 20.
My TWW was dealing an average of 3 Damage more. Now the THF was ahead by 2 Damage at Level 1.
Strangely, I found that the THF was landing fewer attacks than my TWW normally landed.
I can't find the Character Sheets otherwise I would post the builds.
And?!? Just because you made them all does not mean they are all equally optimized. You may just be better at TWF optimization because you like the concept better. I am quite excellent at optimizing the EK. I can make them more effective then straight out wizards I make. That does not mean the EK is more effective...it means it's more effective FOR ME.
And seriously, if your THF is dealing less damage AND hitting less often then a TWF, you seriously did something wrong on the THF.
Weapons can cause variations. Some up to a variation of 5.
Neither of these are only Melee. They are built to be able to equally be good at Range.
The problem with the math most people look at is Average Damage. I am looking at it from what I have discovered.
If you Min-Max and Optimize then maybe you will get a 1 or 2 higher damage with your THF over the TWW. BUT what are you giving up for that?
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Weapons can cause variations. Some up to a variation of 5.
Neither of these are only Melee. They are built to be able to equally be good at Range.
The problem with the math most people look at is Average Damage. I am looking at it from what I have discovered.
If you Min-Max and Optimize then maybe you will get a 1 or 2 higher damage with your THF over the TWW. BUT what are you giving up for that?
So instead of a nice mathematical formula that we can compare, we take your word for it?!? Umm...no. And what you have discovered? What does that even mean? From playing the game? Do you keep track of each time you hit or miss? And the damage rolled to average them out? And how do we account for you having a sting of lucky rolls unless your sample size is rather extensively large? And why do all that when math will give you all that and more without the pesky variance of luck...which we shouldn't be taking into account anyways as everyone at every game will have different variance with that factor. And of you think the damage difference between a THF and TWF when optimized is only 1 or 2, your sadly mistaken. Not even at level 1 is this true. So basically you have zero math to actually back up your claim, no actual mechanical reasoning behind it, while there is oodles of math and game mechanics analysis that seems to pretty much disagree with your claim and we take your word over things that people have actually done work on and proven with...umm...fact why?
Like I said, TWF works better for YOU can not be disputed...by ANYONE. When you claim TWF is better then THF, you'd better have more then because I said so to back that up.
I more than agree with Cold Napalm.
5th level THF hits for: +12 (2d6 + 16, 19-20/x2), assuming he has a +1 weapon. He spent 4 feats though. He hits the average AC (17) for 20.24 DPR. TWW'ler do not come close to that, but if you have such a build that proves me wrong, go ahead, Im curious.
If you do not like average damage vs average AC we can assume the AC and the dice roll is Gauss distributed and see wether that really makes more DPR (I can tell you nothing changes until high levels and then at high levels it will favor the THF even more).
Sometimes I really dont get what planet such ideas come from...
EWP(Bastard Sword) with the Two-Weapon Warrior Archetype can do it cheaper.Umm, yea, because bastard swords are better than scimtars? Or because you use better feats than anyone else here?Bastard swords can work very well if your offhand is a Sun Blade, since it can count as a short sword a.k.a a light weapon. Plus the fact that dual-wielding bastard swords gets you way more cool points than dual-wielding scimitars.OMG!!!! http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/image-files/exotath-1.jpg
I like!!!So why exactly are these better than scimtars? Besides the crit.-thing? (BTW.. I never EVER landed a crit till now -.- my dices HATE me!)
There is no advantage in using bastard swords. For low levels kukris are best, for high levels its the scimtar.
Ich glaube, Schild möchte sie nicht - sieht ja auch nicht so cool aus...
Ansonsten - jo, muss man halt das beste aus dem machen, was verfügbar ist. Die Voraussetzungen sind nicht optimal, aber spielbar ists schon irgendwie.
Optimalerweise nimmt man auf niedrigen Stufen quick draw, um single attacks und AoO's zweihämdig ausführen zu können - später (level 8 z.b.) kann es retrained werden.
Ich würde außerdem wohl nicht auf trip gehen - das kostet feats und 13 int, sowie boosts um wirklich effektiv zu sein. In dem scenario würde ich wohl wirklich EH(orc) reflavorn lassen vom GM und das abgreifen - aber leine Ahnung, wie das ins setting passt.
Ansonsten chakrams mitnehmen und auf niederen Stufen mit TWF/quick draw kombinieren - sehr effektiv!
There still is no ranger
EWP(Bastard Sword) with the Two-Weapon Warrior Archetype can do it cheaper.Umm, yea, because bastard swords are better than scimtars? Or because you use better feats than anyone else here?Bastard swords can work very well if your offhand is a Sun Blade, since it can count as a short sword a.k.a a light weapon. Plus the fact that dual-wielding bastard swords gets you way more cool points than dual-wielding scimitars.OMG!!!! http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/image-files/exotath-1.jpg
I like!!!So why exactly are these better than scimtars? Besides the crit.-thing? (BTW.. I never EVER landed a crit till now -.- my dices HATE me!)
For your game bastard swords are strictly inferior to your other choices. What we were talking about is a particular weapon called a Sun Blade that is a bastard sword that can count as a short sword for the purposes of wielding. So you can have it count as a light weapon in your offhand and thus only get -2 to hit on your attacks instead of the -4 to hit [with all of your attacks] offhanding a bastard sword would normally invoke. However if you do not have access to this weapon then dual-wielding bastard swords is mechanically inferior.
I'm curious, why TWF and not just Two-Handed Fighting?
Two-Weapon Fighting is inferior to Two-Handed Fighting for the most part, for a Fighter, because of how the math ends up working out. The reason Two-Weapon Fighting is awesome on a Rogue is because of the extra Sneak Attack Damage that piles on top of the two weapons attacking.
*sigh*
Why can't the reason be, "because I think dual-wielding is cooler than a two-hander" or "when I envision this character she wields a weapon in each hand?" Why must the attitude be, "If it's not the best DPR then it sucks."
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I'm curious, why TWF and not just Two-Handed Fighting?
Two-Weapon Fighting is inferior to Two-Handed Fighting for the most part, for a Fighter, because of how the math ends up working out. The reason Two-Weapon Fighting is awesome on a Rogue is because of the extra Sneak Attack Damage that piles on top of the two weapons attacking.
*sigh*
Why can't the reason be, "because I think dual-wielding is cooler than a two-hander" or "when I envision this character she wields a weapon in each hand?" Why must the attitude be, "If it's not the best DPR then it sucks."
If that's the reason, then that's fine. I was simply asking.
Consider the OP was asking for help with making an effective character, and also consider that she mentioned a Rogue.
Rogues with TWF are good, because of Sneak Attack. But it's really /only/ because of Sneak Attack. I was simply trying to point out that this doesn't carry over for the Fighter, whose math works such that THF gives out a little more damage.
It's an easy mistake to think that, after seeing how well the Rogue capitalizes on TWF, you might think a Fighter would do as well. In fact, THF does just a bit better, for a Fighter.
If the answer really is "because it's cool", then great! I just wanted to make sure you knew that there was something out there that might do a little better, mathematically.