Below is my feedback for this guide. I have attempted to be as positive as possible, however I disagree with this guide in several Key areas, so please understand this is not a personal attack just a critique of the work, which I am attempting to keep unbiased.
Thanks for being as civil as possible.
I read the stat suggestions, and after examining the RAW regarding skill points (the sole reason why I kept Intelligence high), the recommendations would make more sense in terms of utilizing stats better (since you always get 1 Skill Point per level), so I adjusted the core statistics to have a higher base wisdom. Some people may want to have skills, and/or rely on intelligence for their build some, so a recommended change would be to cut down on Con and Dex, and Wisdom if necessary. The same can be said for Charisma builds.
I put Orcs as an Orange-Green, because I admit in the description that they would be the most raw-powered race to play, but they suffer in skill points (made negligible for skill points, unless you need to specialize in Intelligence builds, which makes this character obsolete), make not so great Charisma/Intimidate builds, and suffer in the Will Save department, something you list as being pretty dang important for fighter stats. It's more-or-less a trade in an extra +1 to hit and damage, in exchange for -1 to Will Saves, -1 to net Skill points (though never goes below 1), and -1 to Charisma-based skills (i.e. Intimidation builds).
I suppose you would be right in saying that Acrobatics wouldn't be green; I will put it as a Green-Orange not because of its very limited usefulness (avoiding hits from movement is a very nice thing, especially when you're getting beat up as it is), but that not many archetypes have Armor Training to use it for heavy armor, and/or the class features that synergize well with it.
Swim and Climb have been adjusted with color and description; stating that the DCs to make climb or swim checks aren't that horrible (compared to Acrobatics), and that it makes a good skill dip choice for the event that magic items won't be able to cover for you.
I'm leaving Intimidate at Orange due to the fact that with the suggested stat array, you're only going to get maybe 3 Skill points. If you're going Human for those extra Skill Points, you could probably put points into Perception, Intimidate, and use the third for dipping, but not every player is going to be Human and get those extra skill points; nor are they always going to be able to use Intimidate during combat when they could be thwacking people in the face with a Vital Strike/Full Attack.
Other archetypes get some pretty nasty things. And technically, you don't "give up" on the gloves if you select a different archetype; you just won't get as good of benefits. Some archetypes are pretty good, and some of them still get Weapon Training, but is merely adjusted to fit the archetype.
Re-reading it, you would be right since I forget that SR is a double-edged sword. Adjusted to Orange, and changed the description to accommodate.
Due to adjustments from the Swim skill, Spirit of the Waters will now be adjusted to Green (since being able to take 10 is a pretty neat and useful feature).
Ancestral Arms will be listed as blue due to the benefits of some Exotic weapons over Martial weapons. That is to say that Martial weapons aren't bad, but that the Exotic weapon benefits are one of a kind, just like the +2 Racial Bonus to Will Saves. In addition, the list of good and/or bad two-handed weapons to choose [including exotics] will be mentioned under the Weapons section when I complete it (which hopefully shouldn't be too much longer).
Well, it's only a specific choice and I am basing the color on what it replaces, not what the replacing object can be exchanged with. There is no need to adjust the color when there are a couple other (better) objects to replace it with.
The only good I can see with Toothy is that it works for the first few levels. But by that point, there will be creatures with DR/Silver or DR/Bludgeoning, and that 1D4 + (Half) Strength will be negligible, meaning your exchange is either better kept as is, or with something more valuable in the long run, hence why I am keeping it as it is. Unless there are rules to make your Natural Maw become Silver, or be able to change the damage type, then kiss it goodbye and hello other more useful racial trait. And I can tell you that you won't be able to apply Penetrating Strike to it.
If I recall the trade-off with that properly, you must not only sacrifice your feat, but your extra Skill Point per level as well, meaning that if you're dumping Intelligence, have Skill Points as favored class bonus, you will only have 2 skills. If you put points into Perception and Intimidate/Acrobatics (and/or have Point Dips), one of these three must be sacrificed to get that extra +2 to Wisdom or Constitution or Dexterity. Unless they want to pay that, they might be better off without the +1 to Will Saves (and Wisdom skill checks) or the +1 to Fortitude Saves and an extra Hit Point per level, or the extra +1 to Reflex Saves and AC (and Dexterity skill checks).
Combat Reflexes is adjusted due to the lowered focus of Dexterity. Spellbreaker is adjusted as well.
Vital Strike eliminates DR accumulation much more effectively than Penetrating Strike line feats. If you want to be realistic about it, both are technically traps, since Penetrating Strike feats only applies to creatures with specific DR (which will be 10+ almost all the time), being much more situational, whereas Vital Strike feats works with more than just DR, and is overall better than Penetrating Strike in terms of damage allotment and synergy with other builds/feats.
Some of the Maneuver feats are decent to have with some builds, especially since some archetypes do grant bonuses to perform some Combat Maneuvers, meaning you will probably want to get the respective Maneuver feats to utilize those features.
Tiger Style seems like a bit of a trap line of feats (just like you claim Vital Strike is) just to reduce penalties to hit, only to make you more likely to get the crap beat out of and die first. (As I've said in the guide, you aren't killing things when you're dead.) Taking penalties to hit isn't that big of a deal because chances are, during a full attack option you're only going to miss with one or two lower base attacks, and that's being generous. Even so, Furious Focus helps alleviate this to ensure you get a good means to hit, and synergizes quite well with single-attack actions (like Vital Strike), and costs a heck of a lot less feats (and drawbacks) to do so.
With the two-handed fighter archetype it actually makes alot of sense to get vital strike from levels 6 to 12 (until you get your third attack at level 11 and swap the feat at 12). Assuming power attack With furious focus your second attack is taken at 7-8 less while a single attack gets 2x str + Vital Strike damage which is very reliable and works when you need to move.
At level 11 you get your third iterative and at this point you are much more likely to have a reliable source for haste so it falls off. It depends on the campaign but you can always dump vital strike at level 12 for a different feat. Hell, a fighter isn't hurting for feats and you could improve vital strike if you want depending on your playstyle.
Tiger Style seems like a bit of a trap line of feats (just like you claim Vital Strike is) just to reduce penalties to hit, only to make you more likely to get the crap beat out of and die first. (As I've said in the guide, you aren't killing things when you're dead.) Taking penalties to hit isn't that big of a deal because chances are, during a full attack option you're only going to miss with one or two lower base attacks, and that's being generous. Even so, Furious Focus helps alleviate this to ensure you get a good means to hit, and synergizes quite well with single-attack actions (like Vital Strike), and costs a heck of a lot less feats (and drawbacks) to do so.
While I can see why tiger pounce seems like a problem or trap at first, think about it in this manner.
At 9th when you can get it you are paying 4 feats and 3 AC for a +3 to hit anytime you Power attack with every attack.
This means at 12th level you are basically able to buy with those four spent feats, weapon focus with every weapon you will ever wield 4 times.
Yes the AC penalty is something to think about however, AC is much cheaper and more easily available than bonuses to hit that are always on.
I have run the numbers from level 1-20 for rogue, paladin, fighter, and monk. For all of these classes tiger style + power attack is the largest damage boost possible in the game.
I also tracked AC and saves for the same level 1-20 progression and was able to keep a minimum of 15+level for AC on all characters along with buying a 14 wisdom for my fighter, and keeping decent saves.
I will provide a spreadsheet if you are interested.
@ James: The Blade of Mercy trait isn't something listed in the hardcovers, something not covered within the guide, so only works for people using other sources outside the ones listed.
Enforcer feat would otherwise only work with weapons like a Sap or other Non-lethals, which may lead to inoptimization. (On top of which, there are quite a few creatures and subtypes immune to Non-lethal.)
Intimidating Prowess would be their only means to make their intimidate skill not go down the crapper. It would otherwise be sub-par compared to a human who puts average or positive Charisma scores for their respective build.
Skill points would suffer worse than a Human's, since you'll need points in both Perception AND Intimidate, meaning no skill point dips.
16th Level Fighter would have 3 Vital Strike feats implemented (since they would have access to Greater Vital Strike). They also have access to Devastating Strike, which implements 6 extra damage (that scales on a Critical Hit), and its Improved form, granting that damage bonus to the Critical Confirmation Roll. On a regular hit, they would be dealing 12D6 (not factoring in the Impact Property, making it 16D6) plus the regular modifiers, compared to a very high AC (and DR 15) creature, which the first 2 attacks would hit on average, the Vital Strike would still pull out with more damage in such a situation. (Obviously, if the creature has lower AC, the 4 attacks would outright win, but this doesn't factor in Power Attack penalties to hit, which Vital Strike does not have to deal with thanks to Furious Focus.)
@ Covent: A link to a spreadsheet would be appreciated; a Fighter's AC, while it may not be worthwhile in the long run, is still important to not be dying all the time. That, and those 4 feats can probably be better spent elsewhere.
**Edit** I will be updating the guide, finishing the last section of the Feats chapter, and starting with the first section of the next chapter later on tonight some time.
Sorry for not reading the whole thread. I just noticed that you rated Heart of the Fields alt trait is red. I disagree. Fatigue/Exhaustion can be quite crippling for a Fighter.
I would rate the VS feats good but not great, or more specifically the first VS feat would be decently good, but the rest of them would be a step below... Just because while VS is nice at low level, and situationally useful beyond that, the higher level VS feats are just putting too much investment into a marginal area. The first one is decent, beyond that, the rating should definitely drop... Not to 'BAD' or red or whatever, but not really beyond average. I think discussing who exactly would disproportionately benefit from VS (d10+weapon dice, having one or more dice enlarging effects routinely available) is a GREAT idea, but that doesn't really OVER-RIDE any general advice about VS, but rather 'pushes the breakpoint to the right'.
VS would probably bear mentioning if you did a specific section on Fighter Feat re-training, although that's class-specific so I don't know if you want to include it here.
Mostly, 2H fighters advantage is not needing lots of feats to invest to do lots of damage. Personally, I see sinking more feats to do more damage very situationally is just wasting that advantage. Damage isn't the problem for 2H fighters, certainly not the 2H archetype that already gets a bonus for Overhandchop Attack Actions. I think you should just emphasize that the most useful way to use the inherent advantage of 2H weapons fighting is to buff up the character in other ways - defensively, iron will, etc, offensively, stuff like Blind-Fight (and Imp/Grt Blind-Fight) is great at keeping your (good baseline numbers) ACTUALLY effective. Most of that I call 'combat utility', basically stuff that is very useful in combat, but isn't just +attack/+damage/+crit type of stuff. Rather than rating every feat like that (which there's tons of), I would prefer just a general discussion of this dynamic, and only mentioning clear 'top tier' 'combat utility' Feats.
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Tiger Style's Feat investment is pretty much the same issue as the feat investment for the entire VS chain... It just isn't worth it, when there's plenty of single Feats which are much more valuable and don't have pre-reqs (or have ones that you already want anyways). Most STR-based 2H weapon fighter-types don't have a problem with attack bonus in the first place, and there are easier ways to boost attack bonus than Tiger Style. It mostly seems useful for Monks who DO need attack bonus boosts. I don't think that warrants mention in a general guide for 2H Weapon fighter types.
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Any weapon can take a -4 penalty to do non-lethal, and UAS can of course always do non-lethal.
I don't see that as an impediment to using the Enforcer Feat.
It doesn't matter if you non-lethal attacks are at a lesser attack bonus than your +BIG vorpal greatsword, you should have SEVERAL weapons/attack options that all aren't going to have the same attack bonus, this is no different. Carrying capacity isn't an issue, so why not carry a non-lethal weapon (if you don't already have Imp. UAS)?
Intimidating Prowess is of course an obvious Feat choice for any STR based character interested in Intimidate, and it's certainly do-able to fit into most builds given it's just one Feat. I don't think it;s a TOP TIER feat, just because it's pretty niche, but I think it still bears mentioning since Intimidate and Enforcer are viable for 2H builds.
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Heart of Fields is definitely great for many characters, obviously for Barbs specifically (even aside from Rage Cycling, it protects you from being Exhausted BEFORE entering Rage, which is still a danger even when at 16th level dropping Rage itself doesn't make you Tired). For non-Barbarians, it's still useful, Exhausted sucks, and even Fatigue is bad: you can't Charge, and taking -6 penalty to STR/DEX is pretty damn serious. It replaces Humans' skilled trait, which may well be semi-important, but if the player is otherwise set on using Combat Expertise Feats (and thus has 13+ INT) I don't think skill ranks are going to be that much of a problem for them, so losing Skilled isn't that big of a deal. Mentioning the trade-off is a good idea, but it's one that each player can ultimately decide on their own.
1) The guide is much, much better. There is too much there to really fully analyze, so I'll just throw a few things out.
2) Its true that perception is the most useful skill in the game. However, on the off chance a player wants a fighter that isn't mentally stunted, you should make one or more skills green. Keep in mind that you are not appraising skills game-wide, but rather for this build, Acrobatics is an easy choice.
3) Halfling's Fleet of Foot. Make note that raising the character's speed from 20 ft to 30 ft will increase their jump skill, which will probably be a heavily armored fighter's primary use of Acrobatics.
4) I don't understand your dislike of natural attacks, especially those gained from racial traits. These are not the fighter's focus, but in no way detract from his ability to fight two handed.
5) You could include a short section detailing the synergies gained from multi-classing, organized by class.
1) The guide is much, much better. There is too much there to really fully analyze, so I'll just throw a few things out.
2) Its true that perception is the most useful skill in the game. However, on the off chance a player wants a fighter that isn't mentally stunted, you should make one or more skills green. Keep in mind that you are not appraising skills game-wide, but rather for this build, Acrobatics is an easy choice.
3) Halfling's Fleet of Foot. Make note that raising the character's speed from 20 ft to 30 ft will increase their jump skill, which will probably be a heavily armored fighter's primary use of Acrobatics.
4) I don't understand your dislike of natural attacks, especially those gained from racial traits. These are not the fighter's focus, but in no way detract from his ability to fight two handed.
5) You could include a short section detailing the synergies gained from multi-classing, organized by class.
Thanks for the feedback. I try to evaluate it (fairly) and apply it respectively.
Yes, Acrobatics is a good skill to select if you have armor training while wearing the heavy armor. There are a few Archetypes (as well as the Normal archetype) that allow this, but it would be labeled green-orange. Acrobatics could otherwise be labeled as a skill dip for fighters.
Interesting note; I forgot about that. The 30 feet will still be adjusted by heavy armor, so until they get Armor Training II, they'll have penalties to it instead.
As I've said in previous comments, for E6 and/or low level campaigns, having such natural attacks is a good means to deal that extra bit of damage. However, when you reach the higher levels where you face creatures with nasty AC (applying penalties to hit) and DR versus Magic or Material or Alignment, unless you have Silver Teeth (Silver Tooth Fillings!), wear an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (which consumes a Neck slot that can be used for more important things), or some other sort of enchantment that can hardly be justified to maintain its full usage (which such efforts can be made toward enhancing your Two-hander) such attacks become obsolete. Most natural attacks take up limbs you use for movement or attacks with your big dumb weapon. Those that don't are difficult to maintain for many levels, and attempts made to maintain the natural weapon's effectiveness generally requires you to sacrifice optimization that could instead be used to benefit other areas that are weak, or the main offense (and purpose of your build) that is the big dumb weapon.
One of the bigger things about Fighters is that mainstreaming a Fighter with multi-classing other things makes the class as a whole significantly weaker in the long run. However, other classes can benefit from multi-classing with a level or 2 with Fighter (such as a Cleric) significantly, but since the Cleric is the main class in that relationship, the build would belong to a Cleric guide respectively.
On a side note, I did add in a Special Materials section that I forgot to implement at first.
Permanent Magic Fang or Greater Magic Fang can cover some of the issues related to needing to boost your natural weapons to bypass DR. Cold Iron and Silver can be problematic but I think those are less common. By the time Adamantine and Epic show up you are going to need dedicated weapons anyway.
Personally I think VS is a total trap of a feat that is only really useful in those rare situations where you consistently can't use full attacks or DR/15 and the like are pretty commonplace. I just can't see investing that many build resources in what is basically an situational feat when there are so many superior always on feats available.
RAW, can (Greater) Magic Fang be permanent? Not really. Such weapons are garbage against Dragons or other creatures who have DR 10+/Magic, which is about the most you can get from it, with it being 1D4 + half strength, after all.
Yeah; as I've said, such a trait is nice to have for the lower levels, dealing that extra bit of damage helps out a good chunk, but by the time you reach 4th or 5th level, where creatures are going to have much higher AC (where penalties aren't going to be welcome onsets) and possibly DR from sources such as Cold Iron and Silver, or Magic, it won't become worthwhile to use unless you want to spend resources (that can also be spent powering up your weapon, armor, or other weaker areas) to make it competent, but chances are you're going to be dealing better damage with your big dumb weapon regardless of which you power up, and some of those resources spent on defenses or combat utility would be more welcome than an extra 1D4 + half strength + 1-5 enhancement.
Vital Strike has plenty of uses. Not all situations/rounds are going to be 5' + Full Swing, nor are they supposed to be. Vital Strike (at least the base 3 feats) assists in pretty much all of those other situations that aren't going to be 5' + Full Swing (but still want/need to deal good, consistent damage).
**EDIT** Guide is somewhat updated; I tried to include the Advanced Race Guide feats section that specifically lists feats open to the respective races, but too confusing (or unfamiliar would probably be a better term) wording and understanding mechanics took a good chunk of time. The Core Races are included; the Featured Races will probably be difficult to implement as a whole, but the Uncommon races shouldn't be too difficult, since most only have 3 or 4 feats at the most that are available.
GMF is definitely capable of being made permanent.
It's somewhat pricey at 7500 GP but if you are loaded up with natural weapons it can be a decent strategy especially for wildshaped druids (which are outside of this document in scope).
I'm not saying stuff like a natural bite attack are awesome but I think for some builds and campaigns having a natural bite attack can be worthwhile.
Basically my opinion on vital strike is that if melee full attacks aren't relatively commonplace then you should be an archer or thrown weapon specialist and spam full attacks with arrows or thrown weapons, relying on vital strike simply isn't worth the reduction in DPR.
GMF is definitely capable of being made permanent.
It's somewhat pricey at 7500 GP but if you are loaded up with natural weapons it can be a decent strategy especially for wildshaped druids (which are outside of this document in scope).
I'm not saying stuff like a natural bite attack are awesome but I think for some builds and campaigns having a natural bite attack can be worthwhile.
Basically my opinion on vital strike is that if melee full attacks aren't relatively commonplace then you should be an archer or thrown weapon specialist and spam full attacks with arrows or thrown weapons, relying on vital strike simply isn't worth the reduction in DPR.
Let's just hope the BBEG doesn't know this, and doesn't feel like casting a Dispel Magic to get rid of it...
Again, it's good for low levels, but when you face creatures with high AC (and when the penalties to hit are a real drag), and/or DR 10+ on whatever, it becomes quite lackluster.
The sad part is, even if he hit it, the Skeletal Dragon had DR/Bludgeoning (for us, we rule the 3.5 method, making it half damage from the normal, but to absolve houseruling, it would be fair to make it DR 15), so even if he's dealing 30 points of damage a swing, it's only going to be 15 per, and since he's only hitting with 1 or 2, he's dealing 15-30 DPR at best.
So now we go to my character, a 6th level Human Mobile Fighter (who is a Two-handing Tank that uses a Buckler), who uses a Greatsword and has the Vital Strike feat. I make an attack at the same Dragon's AC 25. I also have a +4 Strength, a Masterwork Weapon (+1), +6 Base Attack, +1 Weapon Focus. With my Blessing of Fervor, I will gain a +2 to Hit(, and a +2 to Dodge AC and Reflex Saves). I will make a 5-foot Follow Up before I make my Vital Strike, granting me another +1 to Hit and Damage. I will also use Power Attack to amplify my damage (to a total of +16). I will also have access to Furious Focus, meaning I get no penalty from Power Attack on this attack, making my hit more effective without costing anything.
On an average roll, points of damage will be dealt with this attack. It'll be reduced to 15 due to the 50%/15 DR. However, I will note that most creatures don't have such significant DR at this low of level (except ghosts, but there are weapons to counter this), firstly. Secondly, with this build if I chose to use a Full Attack with 3 attacks, I would have to make a 10 on my first roll, a 13 on my second roll, and an 18 on my third roll if I used Power Attack, and I would not get that extra +7 (average) damage total. These significant penalties to hit will drastically drop my DPR compared to Vital Strike, which would be much more consistent to that of a Full Attack.
In a similar scenario, you'd be extremely lucky to get all 4 hits as a level 16 Fighter against an AC 38 (CR 16) Dragon. Chances are, the Dragon is also going to have a major bonus to hit you back, and won't just sit there and let the Fighter use his full attacks, either. He's probably also going to have some DR, whether through spells or natural means. Vital Strike alleviates a good portion of these issues.
Quick note about Gillmen:
I'm playing a Samurai 3/Fight X Gillman in an Inner Seas campaign (Skull and Shackles), and in order to not worry about the whole 'water requirement' thing, I've taken the Riverfolk racial trait. This makes it so that they don't suffer for being out of water, but they have fire vulnerability.
Just saying that taking this trait would likely get it to at least a solid orange, even in a campaign where swimming and breathing water could save you. Then again, maybe I'm just biased for a race that I've had fun playing. =)
On topic: I'm still reading the guide, but I'm liking what I see so far.
On an average roll, 3 + 4 + 3 + 4 + 16 = 30 points of damage will be dealt with this attack. It'll be reduced to 15 due to the 50%/15 DR. However, I will note that most creatures don't have such significant DR at this low of level (except ghosts, but there are weapons to counter this), firstly. Secondly, with this build if I chose to use a Full Attack with 3 attacks, I would have to make a 10 on my first roll, a 13 on my second roll, and an 18 on my third roll if I used Power Attack, and I would not get that extra +7 (average) damage total. These significant penalties to hit will drastically drop my DPR compared to Vital Strike, which would be much more consistent to that of a Full Attack.
First, can I say that your stats and gear seem pretty bad for a typical level 6 character. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with playing that way, but it's hardly typical and would not be a great basis for a guide without warning ahead of time that this was for a low wealth campaign. You don't have a magic weapon, you don't have a magic attribute booster--it's odd for level 6.
Second, let me do this math out, here (which is against an opponent well above your level--I mean, we're talking around CR 10 here at least).
You're using a Greatsword (7 average) with 4 strength (+6 damage) while leap attacking (+1) and power attacking (+6). I'm not really sure where the other 3 damage is coming from, but I'll include it. So your average hit is 23 damage, and your average Vital Strike is 30.
Your attack bonus for a normal full attack is +13/+11/+6 and +15 if Vital Striking.
Against AC 25, you're looking at hitting 45%/35%/10% or 55% Vital Striking.
With no DR, the dpr of your full attack is going to be 20.7. The DPR of Vital Strike is 16.5. Advantage, full attack.
With Half DR (and seriously, why didn't you just pull out a blunt weapon? Don't you carry a weapon of each damage type? I've never seen a fighter that didn't), you're looking at 10.35 with a full attack and 8.25 with Vital Strike.
With DR 15 (turning it into DR 15 instead of half is an extreme disservice to your party, by the way), Vital Strike finally just barely edges out with 8.25 for Vital Strike vs. 7.2 with normal attacks.
If you just switched out to a Morningstar or heavy mace, you'd be looking at 18.45 with a full attack and 13.75 with Vital Strike.
So, look, even in your scenario, Vital Strike was the wrong choice, and you were stacking everything in your favor, including an extremely unusual DR, low wealth, no back up weapons for beating the aforementioned DR, and an enemy both above your CR and with higher than normal AC.
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I'm not sold on the idea of natural attacks being rendered obsolete at higher levels... especially for a two-handed Fighter.
Being a two-handed Fighter one assumes the character is going to be based around maximising their Strength Ability Score. So it's reasonable to assume a 20 at level one, and a 36 by level 20 (+5 from levels, +5 inherant, +6 from belt).
That's a +13 to-hit at level 20 on top of the +20 generated from the character's BAB, so +33.
Assuming the character has had their bite attack from level one, it's also reasonable to assume that their second Weapon Training choice is 'natural weapons' (their first being 'whatever big two-handed pointy thing' they usually use to hit things with), so that'll be adding another +3 bonus to-hit, and to damage.
Secondary natural attacks are basically free extra attacks you can tag onto your full attack routine which take a static -5 to-hit (so, before items and other specific bonuses as good as your second iterative attack) - or a +31 bonus to hit for our 'basic' level 20 example here. That's hitting AC 41 on a '10', so not bad, really - and that's before any magic (beyond the character-wide Strength boosts) is added in.
The attack gets +6 damage from (halved) Strength bonus, +3 from Weapon Training, so it's +9 damage on top of whatever the base die is, again before any additional magic (or Power Attack and the like - PA would be adding an extra +6 damage at level 20, for a -6 to-hit, so a total +15 damage before any additional magic or other effects, or even the base damage roll).
A free +25 attack doing +15 damage (without any extra investment) at level 20 is obsolete?
Let's see, basic CR 20 critters...
Balor: AC 36, DR 15 (so that bite is hitting on an '11' and still doing damage)
Ancient Gold Dragon: AC 39, DR 15 (so hitting on a '14' and still doing damage)
Pit Fiend: AC 38, DR 15 (hitting on a '13' and still doing damage)
Tarm Linnorm: AC 36, DR 20 (hitting on an '11', having trouble doing damage)
... obviously these critters can (and will) have extra enhancements, but so will the Fighter biting them - but in general terms that looks far from obsolete to me. That's also only looking at single critter CR 20 encounters - many encounters will be with multiple less individually challenging opponents.
Again, that's investing nothing in the bite attack except whatever it's taking to obtain the bite attack in the first place, and building the two-hander Fighter you'd be building anyway.
As always, YMMV. ;)
@ Covent: A link to a spreadsheet would be appreciated; a Fighter's AC, while it may not be worthwhile in the long run, is still important to not be dying all the time. That, and those 4 feats can probably be better spent elsewhere.
I have added the spreadsheets to Google drive.
I feel these show conclusively that TP is amazing, perhaps too good. I would like to point out that after acquiring TP a fighter could choose to retrain Furious Focus and simply use TP, thus only spending 3 extra feats on the tiger pounce chain.
The comparisons show that the TP chain after acquiring TP is just as good as acquiring WF+GWF+WS+GWS again for every two handed weapon you Power attack with. You simply only get the benefit once you acquire TP.
I hope these help.
On an average roll, 3 + 4 + 3 + 4 + 16 = 30 points of damage will be dealt with this attack. It'll be reduced to 15 due to the 50%/15 DR. However, I will note that most creatures don't have such significant DR at this low of level (except ghosts, but there are weapons to counter this), firstly. Secondly, with this build if I chose to use a Full Attack with 3 attacks, I would have to make a 10 on my first roll, a 13 on my second roll, and an 18 on my third roll if I used Power Attack, and I would not get that extra +7 (average) damage total. These significant penalties to hit will drastically drop my DPR compared to Vital Strike, which would be much more consistent to that of a Full Attack.First, can I say that your stats and gear seem pretty bad for a typical level 6 character. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with playing that way, but it's hardly typical and would not be a great basis for a guide without warning ahead of time that this was for a low wealth campaign. You don't have a magic weapon, you don't have a magic attribute booster--it's odd for level 6.
Second, let me do this math out, here (which is against an opponent well above your level--I mean, we're talking around CR 10 here at least).
You're using a Greatsword (7 average) with 4 strength (+6 damage) while leap attacking (+1) and power attacking (+6). I'm not really sure where the other 3 damage is coming from, but I'll include it. So your average hit is 23 damage, and your average Vital Strike is 30.
Your attack bonus for a normal full attack is +13/+11/+6 and +15 if Vital Striking.
Against AC 25, you're looking at hitting 45%/35%/10% or 55% Vital Striking.
With no DR, the dpr of your full attack is going to be 20.7. The DPR of Vital Strike is 16.5. Advantage, full attack.
My PC was a tank character; wealth spent is going to defensive bonuses more than damage/offensive bonuses. Obviously I could've selected a +2 Strength belt if his optimization was dealing the highest damage. I could've had a +1 Weapon with Keen or some other damage bonus to it. I could've had a bunch of other stuff instead of tanking gear. But I didn't, since my character isn't built for optimal damage (nor is my character based on the guide). He has another, more important role to fill than just beat things in the face, he takes hits and negates damage too.
The extra +3 damage comes from the Armbands of Might, a 3.5 item (that was adjusted to Pathfinder rules), and it amplifies the Power Attack as if it were 1 step greater (so instead of -2/+6, it's -3/+9, except without the -3 to hit on the first attack thanks to Furious Focus). The extra +2 to Hit comes from the Blessing of Fervor I received that fight (and also gives +2 to AC and Reflex Saves, and since I'm a tank..).
So, you ignore all the math in the post in favor of responding to a single point about your lousy gear? <_<
And that's still no excuse for not having a blunt and piercing weapon as backup, especially if your main weapon isn't magical.
Oh, and I almost forgot--you're a Mobile Fighter. Your core ability--the only reason to play a Mobile Fighter--is to move while making a full attack. You can't possibly claim Vital Strike is worth having when you can do that.
What do you mean that's "No Excuse"? I have a Greatsword, a Lucerne Hammer, a Gladius, a Battle Aspergillum, and Javelins. I have one-handed weapons and two-handed weapons that respectively counter all forms of martial DR, and I can always be in a situation where I have a proper weapon to utilize. I was no longer striking the dragon by that point because there were other threats that were present (such as a Vampire Spawn, the nasty Cleric that controlled the Dragon, and the BBEG himself), all of which didn't have DR like the Dragon does, so I left the Barbarian and the Wizard (and the Cleric NPC) to handle the Dragon while the rest of the party (including me) turned their resources toward the oncoming threat. By that point, there was no reason for me to change weapons, especially since it would actually decrease the DPR I do compared to the Greatsword I already had drawn.
So wait, you're telling me that losing my Highest Base Attack, to make 1-3 attacks while moving (all the while provoking Attacks of Opportunity from the nasty things you'll be fighting) is supposed to be a good thing? How is that good when you sacrifice your best attack, getting a slew of significantly weaker attacks (which are just plain lucky to be able to hit with), all the while getting your face beat in just to say you can move around and make garbage attacks at the same time? Mobile Fighter is good due to its other tactical usage during combat, such as Save bonuses to Slow, Entanglement, and Paralysis effects (over stupid Fear effects, which are much easier to counteract), its ability to effectively use the Acrobatics skill during combat (which is helpful to allow flexibility during encounters), make you run very quick (up to 40 feet in base), faster than most PCs, and the fact that it grants a general bonus to hit and damage to all weapons when you perform a 5-foot step for the round. I am not going to use it for a useless ability at 11th level, for it to only be slightly upgraded at 20th level to include your Highest Base Attack, a very small (and garbage) class feature in the grand scheme of things.
AFAIK if you have Haste or similar effect running, you will make a Full BAB attack as part of Mobile Fighter's Rapid Attack.
And if you are using 2WF, then you will also still be making one normal attack at Full BAB -2. (+Haste if applicable)
I think Darksol MAY (?) be misunderstanding AoO's, how many squares you move thru is irrelevent, you can't provoke more than 1 movement AoO from a given opponent... The rules are direct and explicit on that matter. Only other types of provoking actions (casting a spell, using a ranged weapon, etc) can provoke further AoOs.
So did anyone check my work On the Tiger Pounce math I posted earlier? I would appreciate it.
But I already admitted that the gear wasn't optimal for damage (especially considering the PC isn't optimized to deal the most damage). And what gives you the impression that I "ignored" the math that you posted? Because I made no remark on it? So you proved that when a Full Attack makes all the marks that it's better, which is something that I already admitted to in the first place, so there's no need to re-illiterate that point. (You happy now?)
No, you copped out on the point claiming Vital Strike was still valuable, and it isn't. Vital Strike is terrible--why won't you accept that? It's ok to be wrong sometimes--this is not a good feat chain.
What do you mean that's "No Excuse"? I have a Greatsword, a Lucerne Hammer, a Gladius, a Battle Aspergillum, and Javelins.
...then why did you hit the dragon with the Greatsword?
I was no longer striking the dragon by that point because there were other threats that were present (such as a Vampire Spawn, the nasty Cleric that controlled the Dragon, and the BBEG himself)
First, your GM hates you. Second, why would you use this dragon as an example of why Vital Strike was good if you weren't even fighting it (plus, it still isn't good against it!)?
So wait, you're telling me that losing my Highest Base Attack, to make 1-3 attacks while moving (all the while provoking Attacks of Opportunity from the nasty things you'll be fighting)
I am going to explode reading your posts. Now you suddenly don't like moving? Why do you like Vital Strike, then?! If moving apparently draws AoOs all the time, what is the benefit to not just full attacking?
And besides that, yes, making 1-3 attacks while moving with lower attack bonuses is still better than Vital Strike.
(which are just plain lucky to be able to hit with)
Maybe if you got normal fighter gear instead of "tank gear" whatever that is, it wouldn't be so hard, not to mention the fact that you're apparently facing extremely powerful enemies--and hordes of them, no less. Actually normal enemies for your level should be cake to hit.
Mobile Fighter is good due to its other tactical usage during combat, such as Save bonuses to Slow, Entanglement, and Paralysis effects (over stupid Fear effects, which are much easier to counteract), its ability to effectively use the Acrobatics skill during combat (which is helpful to allow flexibility during encounters), make you run very quick (up to 40 feet in base), faster than most PCs, and the fact that it grants a general bonus to hit and damage to all weapons when you perform a 5-foot step for the round.
Not a single one of those things that you mentioned is powerful at all. A base fighter is better in every way compared to those things. The one and only reason a Mobile Fighter is a useful archetype at all is because of the ability to move and make a full attack.
I am not going to use it for a useless ability at 11th level, for it to only be slightly upgraded at 20th level to include your Highest Base Attack, a very small (and garbage) class feature in the grand scheme of things.
Ok, you can't be serious at this point. Are you serious? No, there's just no way you can mean these things.
Because the Dragon had DR and high AC. None of the other targets had both of those properties. I made a swing on the target, and by that point the other enemies were closing in on our position, so somebody had to go face them, and since our Barbarian was already making 3 swings against the Dragon and was Raged (and had significantly less AC than me); that, and the fact that the BBEG is a part of my PC's story, I had to go face them.
There's a difference between not wanting to move, and not wanting to move when I'll only get my face beat in for doing so. You're not going to be making Full Attacks when you die because of a weak class feature. That, and when the Full Base Attack is gone (the only good means of which for you to hit until the later levels), you're not really going to make the hits that you have left, unless you have Haste, and that's going to maybe be 1 or 2.
I got a +1 Full Plate, a +1 Transformative [allows me to change it to any other shield type as a Standard Action] Buckler (with a feat to use without losing AC bonus) and items like the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (+1 Luck bonus to AC, negate critical hit/sneak attack 1/day), Amulet of the Shadow Scorpion (Shadow Form 2/day, grants +4 Dodge Bonus to AC, +10 Stealth, and DR 10/Magic [+2], Neutralize Poison 3/day), Cloak of Resistance +1, and Boots of the Cat + Feather Step Slipper combination. Sure, I got Armbands of Might (+2 to Strength Checks [doesn't stack with Strength Belt], Power Attack category increases by 1) and Gloves of Weapon Focus (grants Weapon Focus feat for one weapon), but those are hardly good DPR items compared to stuff that I could be getting over them. But again, my role in the party is a tank; not to deal the most damage.
So movement speed is worthless? Being able to effectively use Acrobatics to avoid attacks (which honestly, could synergize a lot better with the fail that is the 11th level class feature) is worthless? Save bonuses to Slow, Entanglement, and Paralysis effects are worthless (since those are much more severe penalties, whereas Fear can be much more easily counteracted)? You must be kidding me if you're going out and saying that a Base Fighter's Bravery and Weapon Training and Armor Training (which doesn't offer much beyond the second rank, which the Mobile Fighter still provides) is better than what a Mobile Fighter receives.
You forgot to cover Dawn flower Dervish Archetype and LoreWarden.
Both make awesome 2 handers (the Dervish is a pouncer and the Lore Warden is a Maneuver god and is a lot smarter)
I have an issue with your rating of Fast Learner.
Fast Learner lets you get both one HP and one skill point each level for your favored class. If you take a level in another class, the feat does nothing for you.
Toughness gives you one HP per level, which can be further increased by putting your favored class bonus into HP, making it +2 HP per level. Also, it continues to build if you multi-class. Alternatively, you could put the favored class bonus into skills, giving you the exact same benefit as Fast Learner. (Or put it into your race's favored class bonus for fighter)
The only way I can see taking Fast Learner is if you already have Toughness. Otherwise, it looks like a trap.
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Fast Learner isn't really a 'trap' - assuming you stick to a single class, and assuming you'd normally (being a frontline type) be using the bonus for the +1 HP per level, it's effectively giving you +1 skill point per level. So it's giving you 20 skill ranks overall - better than any of the 'plus to Skill X' Feats - although unlike them it doesn't stack (you still hit the maximum Skill ranks cap). So it's not a bad Feat... but not one a two-hander would ever need to take - flavour and character rounding only, I'd suggest.
I have to say- I can’t see anything very heroic about drooling foolish idiots that have the social graces and looks of a flatulent warthog.
If you are getting a 20 pt buy, there’s simply no reason to have any stat under 10 (except for racial adj).
Str 16+2 (Hu or H-orc)
Dex 14
Con14
Int, Wis & Cha all 10. Sure, for a little role-playing you can make the Wis 12 and the Cha 8 for the silent type.
You forgot to cover Dawn flower Dervish Archetype and LoreWarden.
Both make awesome 2 handers (the Dervish is a pouncer and the Lore Warden is a Maneuver god and is a lot smarter)
If I remember correctly, both of those archetypes are not listed or mentioned in the Hardcover books (the only sources I'm using); because of this, I did not include them (as the soft-cover/3rd party books aren't always used for proper rules or builds).
I did look at both of them on the SRD, and I will agree that they seem pretty solid archetypes to select. However, since the guide does not cover soft-cover sources, they are not included.
I will not lie and say it's not a good feat to have; it's amazing and works well with the Fighter class, who is really only effective with being just the Fighter class (since making other level dips would dilute its power unless you are working towards a Prestige Class or something).
Toughness is a decent feat, and good if you need that extra bit of health to stay alive, and is probably almost a given in the first couple levels. The biggest issue with such a feat is that it's not a Combat Feat, meaning you can't take it (and then retrain it later) as a Fighter Bonus feat, so unless you're willing to keep it until the end of the PC's gameplay, don't fudge with it since it's technically a trap feat due to these circumstances.
The issue with having all of the stats at 10 is that yes, it's good to not have penalties on the board, but most of those penalties generally affect nothing that a Fighter would otherwise normally use. You're sacrificing optimization for flavor; whether you're fine with that is not the concern, but it is what it is, and if you're not dealing as much damage, making as much hits, etc. Then you can blame the decision you made.
Darksol, I have to say that going off the deep end into SPECIFIC ENCOUNTERS you have had in your personal games is just not relevant to making a guide. A guide constrained to the Core Rules especially should be written according to core assumptions: WBL spread according to the recommendations, and facing a range of encounters which conform to normal CR vs. APL ranges (e.g. max APL+4). If you aren't doing that, then you aren't going to get advice applicable to people who are playing by the normal assumptions.
An INT pre-req of 13 is met by any Fighter who has Combat Expertise, which means any Trip Fighter. The only way to bypass that is multi-classing in something that grants Combat Expertise or Improved Trip without the Pre-Reqs (e.g. Flowing Monk/Maneuver Master) but since you are explicitly advocating against multi-classing that would seem to be ruled out (even if you do include such a recommendation, covering the normal full Fighters who have INT 13 for Combat Expertise/Trip seems reasonable to me). Reach Weapon builds synergize pretty damn well with Trip, so including them in a Guide to Two-Handed Weapon-using Fighters doesn't seem that far out.
Darksol, I have to say that going off the deep end into SPECIFIC ENCOUNTERS you have had in your personal games is just not relevant to making a guide. A guide constrained to the Core Rules especially should be written according to core assumptions: WBL spread according to the recommendations, and facing a range of encounters which conform to normal CR vs. APL ranges (e.g. max APL+4). If you aren't doing that, then you aren't going to get advice applicable to people who are playing by the normal assumptions.
An INT pre-req of 13 is met by any Fighter who has Combat Expertise, which means any Trip Fighter. The only way to bypass that is multi-classing in something that grants Combat Expertise without the Pre-Reqs (e.g. Monk), but since you are explicitly advocating against multi-classing that would seem to be ruled out (even if you do include such a recommendation, covering the normal full Fighters who have INT 13 for Combat Expertise/Trip seems reasonable to me). Reach Weapon builds synergize pretty damn well with Trip, so including them in a Guide to Two-Handed Weapon-using Fighters doesn't seem that far out.
Encounters in my home games don't really have anything to do with how I rate Vital Strike. As you've said; sure, I can include examples from my personal sessions, but not all games are the same, nor are these sessions that I play "acceptable" to list as a type of game suitable for every player to use as a basis for building their character (which I can take to mean "Your personal games are garbage, don't bring them up when they don't really use RAW that well"). I've already listed multiple core game examples as to when Vital Strike is good to utilize, something that is indifferent to my personal sessions, and since there are going to be those situations on a regular basis, it wouldn't be a horrid idea to keep such a thing on hand for when that time comes. After all, the guide is saying "Vital Strike is a decent feat to select," not "Vital Strike is mandatory; don't take this and you will die by the Big Bad Evil Guy of Doom and Sadness."
It's no different than players misconstruing the RAI that should be taken from the RAW in a given Hardcover book. For example, RAW, the Defending property from a weapon (as far as I know, the wording wasn't adjusted properly) only requires a character to "use" the given weapon. The term "use" can be misconstrued in a number of manners, such as "using" a weapon to defend from melee attacks, or "using" a weapon to make attacks themselves, or "using" a weapon just to have it ready and on hand for a time to come to use one of, or both, of the former options. However, the devs explicitly wrote out the RAI, saying that "use" means the PC has to make attacks with the weapon for the property to take effect. Same concept with this.
There are going to be Intelligence-build Fighters. They will most likely be picking Combat Expertise, and the most (generally) effective maneuver is going to be Dirty Tricks. There's also a feat that allows them to use their Highest Base Attack (during a full attack option) for a Dirty Tricks maneuver. Combined with Greater Dirty Tricks, they'll have to spend standard actions to remove severe debilitations, and you don't even have to sacrifice much in the action economy to do so. The thing with Trip is that in the later levels you're going to be facing a lot less creatures that you are capable of tripping, meaning unless you're enlarged to the size beneath Colossal permanently, you're not going to affect every creature (and even so, nowhere near as effective or capable as Dirty Tricks can).
Right, I just didn't see the point of you discussing your Core Assumption-violating home game here re: the Vital Strike discussion. It seems clear that normal wealth investment didn't apply to the PC (at least in terms of areas of investment), and the enemies seemed to over-shoot APL+4 CR, so that battle has zero relevance to Vital Strike's benefit within Core Assumption games. Anyways, I already wrote my opinion on the VS subject, that it's probably best to indicate that progressing further in the chain past the 1st Feat has decreasing relative use-value given the narrow application of VS and the narrow range of scenarios where a potential Full Attack wouldn't be better. Mentioning the importance of weapon die size is also good (I haven't glanced at your latest update, not sure if that's there), Falchion is not such a great VS weapon.
Retraining Trip to Dirty Tricks (or anything else, really) at mid-high level is probably a good idea worth including in the guide.
So movement speed is worthless? Being able to effectively use Acrobatics to avoid attacks (which honestly, could synergize a lot better with the fail that is the 11th level class feature) is worthless?
Rapid Attack isn't useless. You have to build to take advantage of it, but if you do so it becomes quite powerful. For example, I'm working on a two-weapon wielding fighter that plans to use Dazing Assault to go from enemy to enemy and Daze them. Obviously it's not an every battle thing but in general you shouldn't dismiss abilities that allow you to break the normal rules of how combat works.
Tiger style is a blue
The benefit is two fold,
first is that your second and third power attacks are very likely to hit, which is alot of damage. you are going to get hit, esp at high levels if you are a two hander. those extra plus you lose on the second and third attacks are HUGE because your BAB to hit on them is so much lower.
2. it increasing the usefulness of assault line feats, which are much better for a two handed fighter not using a crit focus weapon- like a earth breaker or a sycthe, because more hits means more saving throws, and even if the saves are "relatively" easy to make having to make them 3 times a round isn't a given( i assume haste).
you are going to get hit, esp at high levels if you are a two hander.
The game changes several times as you level, and these generalizations fade in and out of validity as you do so.
That said, the chain is a nice chain for a fighter if they don't have other expensive feat chains to take. Likewise this is assuming that they don't have another use for the swift action to activate the stance.
-James
to an extent that is true and it is not true, because i think it's pretty much a given i think if you are a 12 level fighter and you are fighting the CR rated tanky monster for your level, you are going to get hit, just as i'm confident in saying that at that level you are frequently going to be targeted by will attacks.
will there be encounters where your ac will be pretty good, im sure there will be, I just don't think it will be a common occurance.
That doesn't mean you can't build an ac build, but as a two-handed fighter you are already behind the curve, and if you took the two handed archtype you are now way behind in the AC race, that you are never going to catch up. as that point your best defense is a good a offense, and you just need to accept the fact that you are going to be hit and plan from there.
I'd like to add a little support to the Vital Strike camp based on the fact that the full attack data shown here is rarely going to happen.
That Dragon [up thread] isn't going to allow you to full attack, in fact most high level monsters with any kind of brain aren't going to let you full attack. Sure, on paper, it looks like you can out damage a VS attacker but you're going to be getting one attack off far more often than you'll ever be getting full attacks.
Having said that, I concede that the above mentioned brain is, of course, the DM's and I've seen many seriously under worked brains occupying DM heads in my time, YMMV!
I like the guide, lots!
Secondly, it still comes at a high price to utilize that feat which you spent 4 feats towards. At the low-mid levels, AC is a pretty prevalent thing to hang on to; you don't really need a shield or special defense item to make it relevant, since armor alone at that point can be pretty impervious. That -2 or -3 to AC (to make sure your hits count more) can really bite you in the rear from the BBEG's nasty attack power. However, at the higher levels, where AC no longer becomes an important thing for you (due to the creature's insane growth with CMB and Bonuses to attack and not being able to optimize with it), it's no longer that crucial to maintain the AC, and that you specialize in other forms of defense, such as DR, SR, Resistances, Immunities, etc.
Thirdly, most of the Critical feats do require a fortitude save (the most common and highly statted saving throw in the game for all creatures and PCs), and due to that fortitude saving throw not scaling too well to accommodate. (10 + base attack? Add a Strength modifier [or Dexterity if they are using Weapon Finesse to hit]).
Again, I can see how it helps, but I also see how it hurts with some builds, and not many people may want to make that kind of feat investment for a single (yet unique) "gain". *Just like Vital Strike.*
However, they are right in saying that not many weapons would work well with how Vital Strike and its synergies operate. For example, a Greatsword dealing 2D6 damage with a Vital Strike would only be dealing 4D6 damage plus normal modifiers, whereas using a Guisarme-Glaive would only be dealing 2D10 plus normal modifiers. This doesn't include things like the Impact property, or an Enlarge Person effect, which may drastically alter these numbers for better or for worse.
Hopefully when I get some time I'll be able to make another update to the guide (and finish the racial feats set, and work on magic items).
you are making a two-handed fighter- the only feats you need is power attack.
1st. there are very few things as useful to a two handed fighter as more damage in this case a lot more damage. damage is a two handed fighters best defense, being able to kill it before it kills you should be your motto.
2nd. vital strik is nowhere as good as tiger style they are not even in the same univere one is debateable and the other is very very close to being overpowered. tiger style + power attack + haste + dazzing/stunning assault is tremendous. in almost every situation that would be the optimal action for you to take.
you might think it's uninteresting, but if combat effectiveness is the goal, it's a sky blue option, this isn't even a question.
P.S yo dou realize that unlike crit feat which require a minimum of 16, these happen on everytime and any time you make hit.
making 3 saves in a row is never a gimme.
I'd like to add a little support to the Vital Strike camp based on the fact that the full attack data shown here is rarely going to happen.
That Dragon [up thread] isn't going to allow you to full attack, in fact most high level monsters with any kind of brain aren't going to let you full attack. Sure, on paper, it looks like you can out damage a VS attacker but you're going to be getting one attack off far more often than you'll ever be getting full attacks.
Having said that, I concede that the above mentioned brain is, of course, the DM's and I've seen many seriously under worked brains occupying DM heads in my time, YMMV!
I like the guide, lots!
I think your assumption is actually the less likely one for several reasons, the most important of which are:
1) Monsters want to full attack, too. Dragons have 6 or so attacks they only get on a full attack--they're going to want to take advantage of that. If they full attack, you can generally full attack back without a tremendous reach advantage on their part
2) Melee characters should have the Step Up feat chain (and/or Stand Still if they think they can keep up with it), so it should be hard for enemies to get away from you. You should generally only need to get into melee once to mire them down in your kill zone.
3) You are not alone (part 1) and it is likely, though admittedly not a sure thing that you'll have an arcane caster in your party. If they are doing their job right (and are not some weird niche build), they are disabling the enemies, which will prevent them from escaping your full attacks.
4) You are not alone (part 2), and others in your party can help you get into melee without giving up your full attacks. There are lots of tricks to pull this off, but the most common I've seen is Dimension Dooring the Fighter into the enemy's face.
5) If you really can't stick in melee with an enemy, then the much better option is pulling out a composite bow for your Strength and spending those feats you would have spent on Vital Strike on bow feats. Vital Strike is so bad that you're almost always better off just switching to a ranged weapon to keep your full attacks, than you are using it.
@ Ikari: So AC is useless? DR, SR, Resistances, Saving Throws, those are all going out the window, right? What about Skill Points, Hit Points, and other special properties, are they garbage also? Damage being the #1 priority doesn't mean it's the only priority you sink your stuff into, that's just plain silly.
With that said, it's also pretty silly to lower your defenses and other statistics to the point where even if you're being more consistent (and ultimately, dealing a better average amount of damage), you're also breaching the point to where that extra damage is going to be unusable (due to dying or being heavily locked down), or perhaps even misused (in the case of domination/confusion). It's also just as bad as Vital Strike in terms of feat sinking for an extremely volatile benefit (which is also what Vital Strike is for many people). The worst part about all that feat sinking for the Tiger Pounce is that the payoff doesn't really work until after you get all the feats sunk in, which takes levels (or time in other words), and resources which can probably be better spent elsewhere with things like Additional Traits, Iron Will, Toughness, Blind-Fight (and its upgrades possibly), even specialize in a very helpful maneuver like Dirty Tricks or Grapple. On the other hand, Vital Strike scales as you spend feats in it, and can also take other feats that synergize much better with it than it would with the Tiger Pounce (or perhaps even nullify others feats you may normally select. Furious Focus goes out the window, for example).
Dazing/Stunning Assault is hardly good since the saving throws scale like garbage. Saving Throw = 10 + Base Attack = DC 30 Saving Throw at best, which is very easy for other front-line creatures to bypass. Maybe if they added in a Strength (or Dexterity) modifier to the DC, adding in a scaling (and ultimately more effective) ability, then I would agree that those feats are amazing and would obviously be blue. The issue is that it hardly works unless you're facing a non-melee creature (even then it's arguable), and you need a good case of lock down without regarding the sacrifices to hit if their AC is pretty garbage.
Even if they must make the saving throw for 3 hits, the only way they are going to fail the fortitude saving throw is if they roll a 1, especially considering most monsters (and NPCs) have higher stats than we do, meaning more Con, better overall Saving Throws, other miscellaneous modifiers we don't have access to, etc.
@ MPL: Of course they do, but they have gimmicks to where they can full attack whereas we cannot. Reach, Fly-by Attack, Pounce, Spring Attack, and there are many more methods which a creature can make full attacks but PCs cannot.
Step Up only works for the 5-Foot Step action. Not many creatures are going to just merely 5-Foot Step and Full Attack, unless they're completely dumb and don't know any better. Even utilizing Step Up only makes it worthwhile against creatures who have an equal amount of reach, and only works for adjacent creatures. It's a 3 feat chain that allows you to move up to 10 feet as an Immediate Action (and make an Attack of Opportunity for doing so) when a given creature does the 5-Foot Step 'action'. Taking that extra 5 foot of your Step Up action (with the initial 5 feet you would normally move) will provoke an attack of opportunity from the target. In addition, this only works on adjacent creatures, meaning that this doesn't work against a Creature with Reach.
it's not silly, it's basic economic theory. nothing is free, for everything you do there is an opportunity cost. none of the things you mention will net you as great a benefit as tiger style.
seriously DR? in almost any enounter you can run able being able to hit with an extra power attack is more benfitical than DR or SR
iron will is good, toughness is good, guess what, you have more than enough feats with tiger style to take those, you can also at weapon spec and weapon focus
as i said before as a two handed fighter, you should not be focusing on defense save for will saves and raw hitpoints. you are wasting resources, you are going to get hit accept. your job is kill them before they kill you.
what you can't get is things like vital strike, which again you should be not be picking over tiger style unless you have a specific idea in mind. (there is nothing wrong with this, i would do it, but it's not apporiate for an optimization guide, the minute you start ranking, you made it an optimization guide)
As i said, you can make other characters, just as you can take spells othert han haste or cast a spell other then haste, sure you can, but if i'm writing a guide as to what you should cast most of the time, well it's haste, this is no different. optimization is optimization.
two handed fighters have maximum utility when hiting and damaging things, things that increase that will always be most useful.
Again i don't understand the criteria you're using for the guide, in almost every instance, vital strike is never going to be an "optimal choice". it might give you more felxibility, but as a fighter you should be doing all you can to avoid the situtions where vital strike is needed.
A two handed fighter is not "optimal" when he is felxible, he is optimal when he can dish out insanes amount of damage in the shortest peroid of time.
sure everyone loves mobile fighter runing across the battlefield or the flexiblity of being able to do it, but the fact is, is that it is a sub optiminal choice to make in almost every situation for the two handed fighter.
optimization is not about fun, or being creative, often times optimization the opposite, but if you are going to set on this path to build an optimization guide, which is what you do, the moment you start giving rankings, then you need to do it right, and the numbers should prevail, not our ideas of what would be neat.
as a two handed fighter you should have four main goals.
do as much damage as possible
have as much hit points as possible
get as high a will save as possible.
find ways to ensure you can do as much damage as possible
those should be your four guiding principlas as a two handed character if what you are going for is optimization.
your blue feats are ( for the purpose of what is and is not optimal)
iron will
improved iron will
improved initiative
toughness
power attack
tiger style feat chain
furious focus ( switched out at later levels)
dazing assault- line
weapon focus
weapon spec
greater weapon focus
greater weapon spec
everything else is what could be fun or what ever, but if you are going for "optimal" the above are the feats you ought/must have at some point .
I want to be clear, you can be a very effective two handed fighter without be optiminal.
Of course it's silly. You're pretty much saying not even have a defense and just deal the most damage. No defense = easy pickings, easy pickings = first to die, and first to die = first to not deal damage, and it deteriorates to semantics from that point. Why even have a priority list when you're pretty much saying one goal is the only thing you need to worry about?
So SR is useless against that Domination spell that you seem to believe that a high Will Save is so important to have? DR/Resistances are useless against that Fireball that's burning you to a crisp or a melee Power Attack that's automatically hitting you [since AC is apparently also garbage] and deteriorating your HP a lot more than it otherwise normally would? Don't be ridiculous. Subjects that allow the PC to live longer and be able to deal damage longer is just as important as the damage itself, because you're not dealing damage when you're Paralyzed, or Stunned, or Helpless, or Unconscious, or Dead, or whatever.
Flexibility is also quite important to maintain acceptable DPR averages all across the board, regardless of the situation. This ranges from subjects such as having a weapon of all kinds (1h slashing, 2h slashing, 2h piercing, 1h bludgeoning, etc.), or selecting that interesting feat you came across. There's no point in having that Greatsword against a DR 15/Bludgeoning creature since that only provides suboptimal damage since you're not using a Bludgeoning weapon (which is apparently the only thing that matters, and since it's not top notch, it's garbage). There's also no point in using a Full Attack when you are only able to hit with a single given attack in the first place, and is suboptimal when you can use that single given attack with Vital Strike, and makes such a situation much more fruitful than you would with some other type of specialization.
It boils down to Flexible Guy of Flexibleness, or One-Trick Pony of Doom. With the former, you're the best at making Full Attacks, and dealing the most damage in the freaking world with each attack. You can't miss, and your damage is always the highest; but guess what? You're garbage at everything else. Will Saves, Hit Points, DR, SR, Resistances, all down the drain just for that extra +6 for damage and +3 to hit, and that's just inside combat. Whereas Flexible Guy of Flexibleness can deal great damage with Vital Strikes and Full Attacks, have decent Will Saves, large amount of Hit Points, some DR, SR, and Resistances, and also have a little bit of outside-combat utility. You see where I'm going with this? Even with optimization, it requires a fair amount of balancing with the other statistics as well. Even AM BARBARIAN knows this, and he's just AM BARBARIAN. (I wonder where AM FIGHTER! is at in all this mess?)
If the build was designed to be One-Trick Pony of Doom, then great, you're the best at that single thing, and outside that you're disposable cannon fodder. If the build was designed to be Flexible Guy of Flexibleness, then you have a lot more to offer with other abilities without sacrificing much in an area that One-Trick Pony of Doom is the best at, still being quite competent with the party.
As I've said, the Tiger feat chain requires a 4 feat investment for the purposes and gain of a single feat that can be fairly volatile in its benefits. The only good this provides is that your penalties to hit are transferred to AC; even with a two-hander fighter with competent AC, that penalty cannot be scaled back, and is quite frankly nasty to begin with when you get higher in the levels. Even scoring more hits, you're making it easier for them to hit you with a full attack and ultimately kill you in a single round.