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You see where I'm going with this?Not really.
It seems that you want to defend and debate, hit on fringe issues, at best corner cases, etc.
The role of a guide is to guide. You're not doing this. If anything you are misleading.
I begin to think that you don't have sufficient experience with fighters for this task. What you posit is simply flat out wrong more often than not.
-James
Excuse me? You're taking a small part of my quote (which has no direction towards you and your viewpoints whatsoever), twist it around to sound like I am targeting you, specifically with your viewpoint of my guide (which again, has made no correlation towards the entire guide as a whole, merely to a sub-discussion I am having with somebody else,) and are discrediting me due to a differing viewpoint that you are still holding a grudge against (and is something that I let go and moved on with for a decent amount of time now)? Either you got confused with my statements and didn't read something, or you're still trying to argue something which I let die because there were points for both sides, and that proper adjustments were made (and ultimately reflected upon) in the guide.
And quite frankly, disagreement with a guide that isn't just Black-And-White selection (considering the guide isn't too build-discriminatory and is open for builds of just about all kinds) is going to happen; with discussion on anything in these boards, we're going to hit some things that would obviously step on people's toes in terms of gameplay, and that's due to every player's difference in their playstyle based upon the RAW listed in the books.
I mean come on, for example, AM BARBARIAN's Rage-Lance-Pounce lists the good and the bad, the interesting and the lame, the powerful and the weak in a general scenario regarding Barbarians. Yes, he lists what is good for his build, but it's not like his Rage-Lance-Pounce combination is the only good part of anything that the Barbarian class comprises, which is something I am sure he admits, and/or cites within the guide itself, and this sort of thing is vice-versa; what he lists is good for his build may not be so great with other builds (something which I believe is mentioned within the guide, that some feats are good for some builds, but not all feats are good for all builds). It's as silly as saying "Any Barbarian that doesn't follow this same exact build structure is a failure of the class and should be scrapped," which is hardly the intent of his guide (and an intent which I get from you that you expect of me, due to the statements you make, which again is hardly the purpose of this given guide).
For the sake of discussion regarding the guide itself, I'm not going to talk about this any further due to its unnecessary derailing to a matter of differing opinions. People find Full Attacks are better for them; fine. People find Vital Strikes are better for them; fine too. If it works well for their build, then why argue it?
People find Vital Strikes are better for them; fine too. If it works well for their build, then why argue it?
Because it doesn't work for their build. You are writing a guide. Many people that will read it do not know what they are doing and rely on your guide to tell them. If people do not know the game well, read your guide, and see "hey, Vital Strike is awesome," they're going to think it is and take it.
But Vital Strike is an objectively bad feat by every measure you could possibly use. You defend it for a baffling reason I cannot discern. It's almost like you said it was good once without thinking, and now have to go down with the ship insisting it is.
Vital Strike is terrible. It just is. Everyone knows it but you, apparently. And every example you've used to defend it, when analyzed, has proven that it would actually be the wrong choice in that situation--if someone defending it can't even come up with a scenario in which it's worth it, why should anyone take it?
Vital Strike is a trap feat and recommending it is doing a disservice to the clueless people coming to your guide for advice. You're deceiving them, and that's not ok--that's why people are arguing with you about it.
People find Vital Strikes are better for them; fine too. If it works well for their build, then why argue it?Because it doesn't work for their build. You are writing a guide. Many people that will read it do not know what they are doing and rely on your guide to tell them. If people do not know the game well, read your guide, and see "hey, Vital Strike is awesome," they're going to think it is and take it.
But Vital Strike is an objectively bad feat by every measure you could possibly use. You defend it for a baffling reason I cannot discern. It's almost like you said it was good once without thinking, and now have to go down with the ship insisting it is.
Vital Strike is terrible. It just is. Everyone knows it but you, apparently. And every example you've used to defend it, when analyzed, has proven that it would actually be the wrong choice in that situation--if someone defending it can't even come up with a scenario in which it's worth it, why should anyone take it?
Vital Strike is a trap feat and recommending it is doing a disservice to the clueless people coming to your guide for advice. You're deceiving them, and that's not ok--that's why people are arguing with you about it.
If it doesn't work for their build, then they are free to select other feats that are more in-line with the build and playstyle they want to accomplish; the guide isn't putting a gun to their face and telling them they absolutely must select that feat (chain) or die. It lists a general description of what the feat does and how it works out in the grand scheme of things. With the Vital Strike, I stated that it's a great feat for combating action economy, and that it synergizes well with many other feats. Its flexibility that it grants the PC at the level you can acquire it is what makes it a decent feat, and it's not like a PC is always, and I mean always going to get that Full Attack. The biggest issue with such flexibility is its interval cost, which if removed, would make the feat much more impressive and valuable.
Even so, Fighters are able to retrain any bonus feats they acquire at specific intervals, meaning if they start out with Vital Strike and realize it isn't that great or doesn't work for the build they were planning after all, or what have you, then they have that option to change it out. This is also true for the prime example that is Cleave for such a purpose. The guide has been updated to reflect that.
it's not silly, it's basic economic theory. nothing is free, for everything you do there is an opportunity cost. none of the things you mention will net you as great a benefit as tiger style.
iron will is good, toughness is good, guess what, you have more than enough feats with tiger style to take those, you can also at weapon spec and weapon focus
as i said before as a two handed fighter, you should not be focusing on defense save for will saves and raw hitpoints.
I agree with much of what you said, esp the Iron Will part. One goal of any PC is to HAVE FUN, and failing a Will save can really dampen a evenings fun.
One other thing that adds to fun is to have something to do when you’re not in combat . For a fighter, one easy and effective thing is to have a 12 WIS (helps to not fail those Will saves!) and burn a trait and maybe even a feat on a skill. The most rolled skill is likely Perception. There’s a few traits that make it a class skill, and throwing in Skill Focus or Alertness means you have useful things to do when not actually swing that big piece of metal around.
If it doesn't work for their build, then they are free to select other feats that are more in-line with the build and playstyle they want to accomplish
It literally is not good for any build or playstyle except "being a T-Rex or similar monster." That is the problem. You are saying, "if the feat isn't helpful people won't take it," but:
1) It is never sufficiently helpful to be worth taking2) Who is your audience for this guide?
People who know what works for their own characters don't read guides like this. Clueless people do--they go to your guide to help them make their character. People who do not know any better are going to see how highly you rated Vital Strike, and seeing a phantom authority in your words by virtue of you writing a guide, will take it. What's more, they are unlikely to ever know just how bad the feat really is. They're just going to trust you that it's good, and if their characters suck, they'll just feel badly about themselves for somehow screwing up in play.
If you could actually build a coherent example of a situation in which Vital Strike is actually a great thing to have, I'd back off on this, but even you (the only person who claims it's good), cannot do so.
It is a bad feat and it is harmful to the general Pathfinder playing public to have a guide claiming otherwise.
I have made an update to the guide; you can look at the list of significant tweaks in the spoiler below.
-Some feats have been re-evaluated and adjusted in both description and color coding. (For the Vital Strike chain, I believe a fair compromise regarding both sides has been made and ultimately reflected upon properly.)
-The Feats section is now currently completed (though not exactly finalized, as there may still be adjustments that have to be made for those that I recently implemented, as well as some problems which may not have been expressed to me yet). The Item section is now on the chopping block for the next update, starting with rating Weapons and the magical properties associated with them.
-A slight adjustment regarding the recommended point buy builds, lowering Intelligence down to a 7 to increase a couple of the other secondary stats. The description and color code for Wisdom has been adjusted to reflect the respective point buy listings.
I hope you are satisfied with the update applied!
After taking some time off and dealing with other issues, I have finally been able to update the guide.
-I have included a minor section in the Weapons part of the guide for recommended 'custom' weapons, with two weapon types listed. If you have a neat little weapon you believe should be included in the general arsenal of a fighter, feel free to submit a suggestion through private messaging and/or post in this thread, and if it is helpful enough, it will be put in the guide (and credit will be given).
-The next section to be accomplished is the Armor section. I will start with listing the armor types available and go through the special properties, as well as the specific armors.
-Slight adjustments here and there with capitalization and such.
Thank you for viewing the guide. Any more constructive criticism or other helpful input is appreciated! Stay tuned!
This is just me, but in games where we do a lot of exploring (swimming, climbing, jumping), I like to grab around three ranks in Acrobatics on many of my fighters. This is because with the heavier armors at lower levels, the armor penalty is pretty bad. So, in these times, I'll remove my armor, strap it on my back, and make the check I need to. In the event we get ambushed (happened recently), the Acrobatics helps to keep you alive when you fight defensively or use total defense. Good up through mid-levels, before you get armor training 2+ and mithral heavy armors. That plus Dodge and my shield and my Dex kept me at a healthy 18 AC in my Monday game. This is only really useful if your GM likes to through a lot of hazards and obstacles like that at you, like I and my GM do.
I don't think you have read Merfolk enough. They can trade water dependency away for lower swimnming but some land speed.
Not a big color change, but doable in heavy armor (as you are slow anyway).
Mobile could be a decent VS feat user but them only.
As an aside: Why do people think unarmed strikes are only possible when a monk has hands full? Why can't anyone kick?
Surprised Spiked chain got a non-red color, doesn't a (heavy) Flail cover it without wasting proficiency feat? Have you ever compared them?
I don't think you have read Merfolk enough. They can trade water dependency away for lower swimming but some land speed.
Not a big color change, but doable in heavy armor (as you are slow anyway).
Mobile could be a decent VS feat user but them only.
As an aside: Why do people think unarmed strikes are only possible when a monk has hands full? Why can't anyone kick?
Surprised Spiked chain got a non-red color, doesn't a (heavy) Flail cover it without wasting proficiency feat? Have you ever compared them?
Keep in mind that when I colored the races they only include as-listed racial traits, not the variant ones, which are covered in the traits section. I would say that if you were to play Merfolk, the water dependency removal is a must, the same as it would be with Gillmen.
Yes and no; Mobile Fighters are great in being able to combine both movement actions and full attack actions at the same time. Their capstone is pretty much a better version of Pounce. Vital Strike is adjusted to say that it is good if your chance to hit with two attacks is pretty slim and you have very high damage dice. It makes for a great retraining feat (much like Cleave), but that's about it. Its other upgrades aren't all they're cut out to be.
In terms of RAW, it is only stated in the Monk's Unarmed Strike that they can do so even with their hands full; sticking to RAW, this implies that for other classes, they must use their hands to perform Unarmed Strikes, meaning if they are using Two-Handed Weapons (both hands are full), they can't use Unarmed Strikes.
There are some slight benefits of the Spiked Chain v.s. the Heavy Flail; the Spiked Chain has a higher minimum damage (but a lower maximum damage), which counteracts. They are both Trip and Disarm weapons, but Spiked Chain can be finessable (whereas the Heavy Flail cannot). For us, it may not be a noticeable difference, but the finessability aside it's not much different than the Heavy Flail in terms of raw statistics. If some people get the ability to use Spiked Chain as a martial weapon (or have proficiency with it), it's more-or-less a variant of the Heavy Flail.
@ Odraude: Acrobatics isn't a bad feature for Fighters. It's just the most common use for it is during combat, and since there is a rule that restricts people whose movement is hindered by armor or encumbrance, it is generally going to be overlooked. In a case such as that, I'd label it the same as Climb and Swim in that it'd make for okay selections for skill point dipping.
I agree with that. It is a corner case if you expect to take off your armor. Since the GMs around here (and myself) have such radical encounters that may catch me with my armor off, I tend to grab some of those ranks. I'd rate it an Orange myself.
I agree with that. It is a corner case if you expect to take off your armor. Since the GMs around here (and myself) have such radical encounters that may catch me with my armor off, I tend to grab some of those ranks. I'd rate it an Orange myself.
Again, I have it colored in two different colors because its rating is dependent upon how you intend to play the character, as well as what features you will have available for whatever archetype it is you select. Acrobatics in itself is a very helpful combat skill, as well as a situational obstacle traversing skill (similar to that of Climb and/or Swim). However, its usefuless for the Fighter is determined by a select few features and/or playstyles, which is Armor Training, a few Mobile Fighter features, or the choice to use Light Armor (or Mithral Medium Armor) only.
If the Fighter does not have those features or is resorting to Heavy Armor (regardless of Mithral attachment), then Acrobatics is only useful when not wearing their armor, which is few and far between. Dismantling armor (especially Heavy Armor) takes a few minutes time (assuming you have help), and you won't have that kind of time when you're in the middle of escaping a Big Bad. If you only have access to this, then this serves only as an Orange.
If the Fighter in question has Armor Training (as well as if they are a Mobile Fighter with Acrobatic features, which further helps this goal), or is choosing to use Light Armor (or Mithral Medium Armor), they have access to what they would normally get above, as well as have it serve for avoiding attacks caused by movement during combat (which, regardless of what combat you're in, it's most likely going to occur), forcing creatures to have to focus on you instead of some other target in order to hit you (since they can't really get at you with their Attacks of Opportunity). If you have access to this level of capability, then this serves as a Green color, since it provides a helpful line of 'defense' for on-the-move combat, as well serves with the ability to avoid dangerous traps.
I have applied another quick update to the guide. The Items section is taking forever, but at least I am making progress.
-A 'recommendation' section for good and effective armor and weapon property combinations has been added under the respective titles. If you know of any, feel free to post one and list its notable versatility (for the example of the Ghost Touch Net, it makes you able to easily control an Incorporeal and let your ranged/caster buddies fire it up until it turns to dust without having any sort of casualties), and if it's good enough, it will be listed in its respective recommendation title.
-Small changes in certain rating statistics in which I used language referring to different 'tones' of a given color; all such statements should now be removed, as the color system has been simplified. If I missed any, please let me know.
-The next section I will work on is Special Materials. This will list the properties of a given material, what it can (and should) be applied to, the cost, and other interesting, informative tidbits.
Again, feel free to positively critique and give some constructive criticism. If I forgot a weapon or armor or other item within any of the hardcovers, please let me know so I can add it to the proper section. I hope you enjoy the update!
This update went by a lot quicker than I thought it was going to be, though I will say the next one will take the longest of them all.
Anyway, here's quick update notes.
-Attempting to add extra 'illustrations' for the guide so as to not have you look at text all day. So far it has been unusually buggy and there have been having technical difficulties. If anyone is wondering why the guide looks so disarrayed, this is the reason why, and I apologize in advance.
-Primitive Materials are not included in the Special Materials section, though that will be addressed in the FAQ section when the time comes.
-The next section is the large, dreaded Wondrous Item section. This will take a very long time to fully complete (I'm figuring about three weeks minimum, not working straight that is). The section has parts that cover each of the slots that characters can utilize for Wondrous Items. They will be categorized by price, and rated accordingly based on the listed price category range.
As with the previous update, if I missed any Special Materials, Armors, Weapons, their special properties, as well as any specific armors and weapons, please let me know, as all of the stuff I snatched is from Ultimate Equipment for simplicity purposes.
Looked through the guide and I applaud the effort, but it looks rather meh to me. The color-codes for a lot of things are wrong to me, with caveats in them for specific builds. I'd recommend that the basic feats EVERY 2H fighter would use (i.e. Iron Will & Lunge) and be really good be blue rather than some which are so specific to say a sundering build or an overrun build. Take a bit more time and try to get it either more generalized or more specialized with actual builds and what their preferred feats should be. Just my 2 coppers.
I know it has been a while since I have posted/updated on behalf of the guide (and in general), and that is because I have been without internet access for a long time. It is unfortunate that due to this turn of events that I have not been able to get any work done on the guide. (How I currently have access right now is a mystery, but the connection is slow and unstable, so I can only post stuff like this.)
I now have copy-pasted the current write-up of the guide so far, and I will continue to work on it offline, and when I can finally obtain internet access (as well as some more free time than what I have currently), I will attempt to make regular (and real-time) updates to the guide. Until then, I ask for more patience (and more constructive criticism for those who are still viewing it). In the meantime, I will attempt to respond to those who are offering criticism and/or debating what I have currently posted in the guide (in which they are doing so peacefully).
@ Martiln: RAW, an Unarmed Strike can only be performed with their hands full by a Monk, whose Improved Unarmed Strike list has extra caveats versus an Unarmed Strike by a different class. In addition, Unarmed Strike is listed as a Light Weapon in the hand, with no weapon description detailing that the Unarmed Strike attack can be used with other parts of the body than just the hands.
Realistically, I would agree that kicks and headbutts and shoulders and other parts of the body would suffice for Unarmed Strikes with any class (not just Monks). But if the RAW doesn't support it, then neither should the guide.
@ ub3r_n3rd: I look back and I notice that your term of approach would be the better one. I do try to rate feats based off of their overall usefulness for the class/character as a whole (i.e. Grapple, Dirty Trick, and/or Sunder Maneuvers are more helpful and debilitating than other Maneuvers, which are not so much or they are, but only work on a limited kind of enemy), though as you say, listing a feat Blue for a Roughrider or Mobile Fighter archetype, whereas that feat would be Orange/Red for a Fighter of any other archetype does tend to be misleading for people constructing and planning character builds.
I will look over all of the posted feats and re-examine their color code, making adjustments accordingly. Hopefully this will resolve some (if not all) confusion with this part of the guide, and will help me push forward in my current progression of the guide.
@ Solusek: I will ask that you read 1. of the Forward within guide again, as that will answer why those aren't listed. If it's not an Official Hardcover Pathfinder Rulebook (i.e. Core, APG, UM, etc.), then it will not be explained upon, and my reason for this is because not all players will have access to the miscellaneous Paizo books (like the Seeker of Secrets or Adventurer's Armory soft-cover books) whether through money, tracking down sources, or because it interferes with their style of play. It is also because of this reason that I have feats and traits and races separated the way they are, for players who are going Core-only, or have limited access to all of the current Hardcover Rulebooks.
If I am mistaken, in that those two subjects are actually listed within a Pathfinder Rulebook (like the examples I've listed), then if you can cite the book name and the corresponding page number so I can reference it, then I will display them within the guide under the respective sections.
It took forever since I have posted in here or gave any sort of updates; I was out of internet for many months, and I did not have an offline copy set up for a couple of those months, so I could not work on it.
However, I will not renege on my creation so easily, and now I have finally managed to compile a 1.0 version of the Guide. From head to toe, the guide is ready for an official level of completion. Simultaneously, I have plenty of bugs that I need to fix and plenty of changes that I need to make to it in order to accommodate this update as an official "release," if you will.
2. Some of the previously completed sections have rewritten content in attempts to apply suggestions that other reviewers have provided to make the guide more helpful. Please understand that while I try my best to have it be functionable for players of all kinds that I won't always be able to please everyone. I apologize if the guide does not suit your needs, and feel free to look elsewhere for one that does, I won't have any hurt feelings, but I feel that not all choices are obvious to a Two-handed Fighter, and that with each build one should be careful as to how it should apply, and with this guide I attempt to address such issues, and expand upon other issues that are equally prevalent.
3. The Update does not currently include character traits from the new book Ultimate Campaign, nor will it have content from Mythic Adventures (though these sections will be included once I get a chance to work on them, and/or the official content for it will be released). I will also not include the Drawbacks/Flaws of Ultimate Campaign, as those are completely optional, and/or most games will not run with such rules.
4. I will still be taking suggestions and/or criticism as to how the guide should be constructed. I do understand that the guide is large in size, and that it might not be the most practical, and is something that I am trying to work on, but alike with Paizo publishing errata'd content for their books, I also have to work around the fonts and stylization of Google Docs, so it will take time and patience for me to apply such things. I also am still asking for civilized conduct/chatting.
5. I am now open for you, the reviewers (and viewers alike), to post your builds on this thread (or via PM on the forums or my e-mail address). In order for me to post the build in the Builds section, the build must have a Title and contain a Forward, a summarization as to what the build accomplishes, as well as the creator's name (could be anything, a Paizo Messageboard name/alias, real life name, whatever, though I would prefer it to be rated PG-13 for the young players). It must also only use legal material (and combinations) from the Hardcover Rulebooks. This includes the Core, APG, ARG, UM, UCo, and/or UCa (when the guide includes the information). Anything else outside of this does not count (and it may/may not be because of the source it comes from). In addition, it must list the total Point Buy Value, Total Wealth Amount (for simplicity, simply follow the WBL chart), as well as the level the build reaches (generally at the maximum of 20, though lower level ones are acceptable). Once the criteria is met, it will be published on the Builds section with credit given to the one who made the build.
With any luck, I will finally have this guide up and running to a very great capacity for the forum community (hopefully soon). Thanks for the patience (and possible understanding) you all have (at least that is my impression, chances are I'm wrong), and I hope the guide, when completed, is a fair enough contribution.
Looked through the guide and I applaud the effort, but it looks rather meh to me. The color-codes for a lot of things are wrong to me, with caveats in them for specific builds. I'd recommend that the basic feats EVERY 2H fighter would use (i.e. Iron Will & Lunge) and be really good be blue rather than some which are so specific to say a sundering build or an overrun build. Take a bit more time and try to get it either more generalized or more specialized with actual builds and what their preferred feats should be. Just my 2 coppers.Agree about the fact that there are certain feats which are must haves for fighters (Iron Will and Lunge being two of them).
Also,
Sunder: 2H Weapon Fighters are the masters of this since Shattering Strike stacks with Overhand Chop, Backswing, Greater Power Attack, etc to make a near ultimate sunderer.
Dual Talent: If you choose Con for the extra +2 (say alongside Str for your race bonus), compare this with Toughness, beyond level 2 you are equal to Toughness AND gain +1 on Fort Saves as well as having the ability to choose Toughness as well. Worth a feat and 1 Skill Point a level? For a fighter yes in my opinion.
Weapon Focus/Specialisation: My issue is the cost, 2 feats for +1 to hit, +2 damage with 1 weapon, or 4 feats for +2/+4. Are there better ways to spend 4 feats? Quite possibly.
Thrown Weapons: Strength for damage and the 2 handed thrower feat. Worth a mention.
Barbarian Dip: Rage bonuses and abilities, a bit like nitrous oxide for your fighter. Worth a mention.
But well done, well done.
G
Of course, I have that adjustment made in the off-line copy; I just need to apply it to the on-line copy, and it will be made.
And I am in agreeance that Sunder is a good combat maneuver. The only problem that it would pose is constantly breaking (and eventually repairing) useful loot you may acquire from foes you slay, so it adds a money tax that might hurt.
I did re-read that, and considered what it does, and you're right; that is one of the things that I will change.
In some cases, yes. It might not be completely necessary, though it's still nice to have. One issue that it does run into is that it only applies to a single weapon, though there are some ways around that (or it might not be an issue at all, depending upon archetype by the endgame).
Thrown Weapons can have their uses, but they need to waste feats on being able to apply things that can already be used with standard melee two-handers.
If the build plans on not reaching the endgame, then perhaps it is worthwhile, and I have that mentioned in the offline copy; simultaneously, Fighters mainly are only good with going pure fighter. Of course, there will be differences based upon build.
Thanks for review and feedback!
At long last, I finally put in enough time to have the guide look (hopefully) somewhat comprehensive and have an ending to it for a change. Of course, I did develop it to grow like any other living entity.
The improved guide includes the following:
2. The Miscellaneous Items section is complete; it includes (as far as I can tell) bare essentials for what any character should have. Other creative implementations I will leave for the reviewers to comment on (as I can't come up with anything else).
3. The Strategies and Tactics section is complete; cited within are party formations, as well as tips and suggestions as to what a Fighter should be doing while playing. Included also is an enemy weakness table which cites what type of weapons or attacks are most effective against a given creature type (or subtype).
4. The Recommended Builds section is up and running. As it stands, there are only two builds (of which I made) in it. The first is a "fun" build which pushes the limits of what a Two-Handed Fighter can do in the endgame. The second is a build based upon the concept of Mr. Party Leader Guy, a Two-Handed Fighter who also has decent leadership skills. There may be more to come from myself, though I am also looking for intriguing (and extremely potent) builds from the Paizo community to be posted in this thread here, or sent as a private message to me.
5. A FAQ section has been created in attempts to answer any questions that come up frequently for my viewers or to answer some things that my guide does not currently answer. Feel free to browse and/or add on to the escalating list of questions that I generated myself (since I doubt I have all of the possible questions listed).
6. I also give credit to those who have helped construct the guide to what it currently is. If I missed a contribution, please direct me to where (and what) it was so that I may include it.
7. Revision of Feat color codings and descriptions. Color correction of some subjects.
8. Application of potential multi-classing opportunities.
There are a few issues that I may still be having with the Guide. Firstly, I want to be able to have the Table of Contents hyperlink to respective sections of the guide, but I have no idea as to how I could do that. If you're proficient with Google Docs and figured out how it could be done, please show me how so I can make cycling through the guide to get to the desired section that much easier.
Secondly, the guide takes quite a while to fully load (approximately 2-3 minutes) due to its enormous size (I captured about at least 60 pages according to Microsoft Word; it would be close to 100 if we go based on Google Docs), and is something that may frustrate some people. In hopes of taking this problem to a minimum, would it be possible to include a download link to the guide itself (which I will update whenever changes are made), or be able to shrink down the load time (would prefer to not cut stuff out if I don't have to)?
Lastly, I can't really tell if the guide is in a comprehensible format (that is, pictures aren't out of place or cropped, text isn't all around the page, etc). On my screen, it seems okay, but some 'testers' that can let me know if the format is easy to view or if there are bugs I need to fix, I would appreciate it.
With that said, I believe I am done with the guide for a little while at least (until I get some more feedback and/or reviews). I hope the Paizo community enjoys the contribution I (attempted to) make for the players of Pathfinder.
Hello everybody, I know it's been a while (I think a little over a year), but I have come with some news:
Update includes the following changes:
-Fixing of Guide Link (thanks to Rerednaw for stating it wasn't working; apologies for taking so long, was lazy and never got around to it. Also, link worked fine for me, but might be because I have full access to it. The new link is as the start of this post by clicking the enlarged text above.)
-Addition of Quick Draw feat (credit to critical spit for PMing me a question about its inclusion and usage)
-Minor Grammar/Punctuation Changes.
-Image and Format revisions to (try and) fix glitchy/buggy viewing UI.
-Slight Entry Editations for some feats to account for Erratas.
Remember that I am taking viewer-created Builds to post in the Guide to help players develop a different/effective playstyle. Please post them to me in this thread or Private Message them to me, and if they follow the guidelines I ask for, I'll post it in the Recommended Builds section for everyone to see.
For those who want to know the details of the inclusion of the Quick Draw feat, I have the PM in Spoilers here (it sort of seems like fanmail, haha):
Hey Darksol,
Absolutely loved your Fighter optimization guide; well-written and quite comprehensive. Question for you, feels like the Quickdraw feat is overlooked and undervalued. Most guides say it ain't worth the space it takes up in the book. You make a good point about thrown weapons, but that's about it. I'm wondering how come no one ever pointed out that you can use it to AoO an opponent with a reach weapon as they come rushing at you, drop it and quickdraw your greatsword to finish them off with a full attack. Or am I missing something? Ever since spiked chains lost their reach, I've been tossing that on my PCs and NPCs, and it seems to work great for bringing on the hurt. Your two cents?
A fairly valid question. While I've liked Quickdraw back in 3.X, since there was no rule of drawing a weapon as a Free Action except with that feat (it otherwise took a Move Action as far as I knew), Pathfinder mentions that you may draw a weapon as a Free Action as part of a Movement Action. (Whether this means you may spend an action equivalent of a Move Action and not a Move Action for movement itself, it can be debated, but the intent is obvious. A better question may be if it works with the 5-Foot Step option or not; I'd say it would, but I'm rambling...)
As to why I recommend it with Throwing builds, most weapons with Throwing builds either have the Return Property, or are disposable (and feats correlating with disposable weapons would work with Throwing builds as well if that's the gameplay you're looking for), and you must spend a Move Action (or Free Action if already doing a Movement Action) to draw a single weapon from its scabbard or sheath. Quickdraw basically allows you to avoid that limitation. It's also a good feat for Switch-Hitter builds, which usually involve Ranger/Fighter multi-classing.
To answer your question, I'll quote it and point out what you're missing.
I'm wondering how come no one ever pointed out that you can use it to AoO an opponent with a reach weapon as they come rushing at you, drop it and quickdraw your greatsword to finish them off with a full attack.To examine this, an AoO is something that occurs outside your turn. This, and Immediate Actions are the only things that can be done outside your turn without specifically stating that it can (Speaking, for example). With it being the creature's turn, you can make the AoO with your Reach Weapon, but it then resumes to the creature's turn. From there, you'd have to wait until it's your turn to drop the weapon (Free Action), take (either) a 5-Foot Step (or a Movement Action, if going by strict RAW), draw your weapon (as a Free Action, or part of Movement Action), and then proceed to Full Attack. A lot can happen from the enemy's turn to your turn, either by you being dropped from the creature's attack or something displacing the creature's distance towards you (i.e. Battlefield Control spells), so it is a risky option.
Quickdraw would eliminate the need to question the actions if going by strict RAW, but what you are describing is a matter of Switch-Hitting, which is something that is almost essential to the build. However, several of the fighter's offensive features seem to focus on one group of weapons for pure optimization (and their capstone focuses on a single weapon of choice), so Switch-Hitting, unless they involve the same weapon or group of weapons, leads to some inoptimization. Is it build-breaking? Probably not, if you lack those features. Mobile Fighters, for example (and my personal favorite), don't need to rely on weapon groups nearly as much as other Fighters, so they may be one of the better Fighter Archetypes to choose for a Switch-Hitter.
In addition, changing weapons around like that (dropping them/sheathing them) can allow enemies to use your best subjects against you, something that's very bad in a given combat. Being hit for your build choice or action choice can lead to victory or defeat, and with it being optimization, it's not something that's desired. But each game is different, whether it's a PFS Game, or a Home Game, people change the rules around, or have different styles of playing the game, and things are changed to accomodate that (for the most part), so building this Switch-Hitter may be great for your game, but not so much in the RAW Scheme of things.
I hope this answered your question and gave you insight (that others may not have gotten). :)
Cool guide; very comprehensive. Actually has a decent amount of stuff that seems useful for other martial characters as well.
Zenith Games, if you are watching this Discussion thread, the link to this thread is messed up -- it is:
http://paizo.com/threads/paizo.com/threads/rzs2p6pp?Two-Hands-are-Better-Th an-One-A-Guide-for
but should be:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p6pp?Two-Hands-are-Better-Than-One-A-Guide-for
(Note that the first one gives an error.)
Zenith Games has fixed it -- thanks.
Being perfectly blunt, as someone playing a two handed fighter, I didn't find this guide terribly helpful.
Yes there is a lot of detail but as someone that can pickup the book, read feats and items and work things out on my own, there is nothing in the guide that I cannot figure out on my own.
What *is* useful - and has been seen on other guides (Treatmonk, Rogue Eidolon) is sample builds that have been playtested and trialled. That is the gold of those guides - someone who has tried these things out and found what works in practice.
E.g.
What archtypes work and don't, what feats work with those builds, how would you put them together, what feats should be retrained and when (if any), what equipment might look like for a character at level 5, 7, 12 (for PFS) or level 20, what are the gotchas? And which feats/abilities are traps.
Would it be too much to ask for at the very least a few sample builds with the archtypes recommended and their progression and how they play out. A mobile fighter and two handed fighter archtype (along with their point buy allocations) and feats at a very minimum would be helpful.
Thanks.
Bit late with the followup - I just noticed that there were two sample builds in the guide. I don't know when they were added (or how I missed them the first few times I read the guide?) but that helps. I would still add a few more if possible.
Think of it as not so much of a guide specific to Two-Handed Fighters (including the class specificity) as a guide for full BAB characters that use two-handed weapons, that happens to be better for Fighters due to their greater feat availability.
Think of it as not so much of a guide specific to Two-Handed Fighters (including the class specificity) as a guide for full BAB characters that use two-handed weapons, that happens to be better for Fighters due to their greater feat availability.
With respect, I disagree vehemently. I find it immensely unhelpful to not explore the archtype dedicated to two handed fighting in depth. Highlighting mobile fighter is useful but I do feel more exploration of the archtypes - especially the two handed fighter is needed. Or perhaps more precisely, it does the Fighter no justice (a class already marginalised).
I also found the absence of detail on Vital Strike builds (which *are* viable and *do* have advantages *specifically* with two handed builds) is a mistake. The fact I had to find another guide (see below) to find that guidance strikes me as odd.
Link:
http://tylerkamstra.com/gaming/pathfinder/vital_strike.php
I take your point about needing to explore the Two-Handed Fighter archetype and Vital Strike in more depth, but in the latter case, Vital Strike may not be usable as much as you think -- swinging around weapons that big is going to be troublesome even if you have the strength (unfortunately, Pathfinder rules are vague -- if they even speak at all -- on the concept of limitation of how big a weapon you can use in a given space; the only exception I can think of off the top of my head is the mention of cutlasses being suitable for use onboard ships with their cramped conditions.
Also, I wonder if the Vital Strike guide misinterpreted Devastating Strike?
Benefit: Whenever you use Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, you gain a +2 bonus on each extra weapon damage dice roll those feats grant (+6 maximum). This bonus damage is multiplied on a critical hit.
Reading that, I can see 2 ways to interpret it: Does each "extra weapon damage dice roll" refer to each die in all the weapon damage rolls, or does it refer to each roll of a set of dice for the base damage of the weapon? I lean towards the latter, but I could see the other interpretation being popular.
I take your point about needing to explore the Two-Handed Fighter archetype and Vital Strike in more depth, but in the latter case, Vital Strike may not be usable as much as you think -- swinging around weapons that big is going to be troublesome even if you have the strength (unfortunately, Pathfinder rules are vague -- if they even speak at all -- on the concept of limitation of how big a weapon you can use in a given space; the only exception I can think of off the top of my head is the mention of cutlasses being suitable for use onboard ships with their cramped conditions.
Also, I wonder if the Vital Strike guide misinterpreted Devastating Strike?
Benefit: Whenever you use Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, you gain a +2 bonus on each extra weapon damage dice roll those feats grant (+6 maximum). This bonus damage is multiplied on a critical hit.Reading that, I can see 2 ways to interpret it: Does each "extra weapon damage dice roll" refer to each die in all the weapon damage rolls, or does it refer to each roll of a set of dice for the base damage of the weapon? I lean towards the latter, but I could see the other interpretation being popular.
I don't want to get into an interpretation of Vital Strike. Let's stick to the discussion of builds and comparisons for the guide.
If you want a more agile fighter, higher AC then go Mobile Fighter. If you want to do maximum damage, insane, ridiculous blows, laugh at DR, sunder stuff like it's made of glass and maximise your chances to hit against high AC opponents and BBEGs, then I would go a Vital Strike build.
I would also like to see builds dipping Barbarian (e.g. Armored Hulk). What about Titan Maulers?
I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to try and make a guide in the first place. It isn't easy. I just think there's a ways to go just yet.
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I really feel like vital strike is being over estimated here. I mean yeah, there's a way to make it do all the things stated above, and it's called Mythic Vital Strike.
V. Strike aside from that is really for stuff like T-Rexes who can get one big attack and get bigger, not really that great for humanoid creatures unless they can super size themselves. So in this respect, I can see why V. Strike didn't get lots of play in this guide.
Darksol: Just a small note, but you mention that acrobatics is an OK choice because of armour training... but then go on to say stealth is a bad choice because of armour check penalty. Surely, both will be suffering from the penalty and/or benefiting from the training equally? Perception also does not rise with CR as reliably as CMD does, giving stealth an advantage in terms of later level DCs. I have no opinion as to how useful they are generally, just that the argument for their usefulness is currently contradictory.
You have a few odd points I completely disagree with (toothy, vital strike) but otherwise the guide seems to be maturing really nicely!
{. . .}
Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to try and make a guide in the first place. It isn't easy. I just think there's a ways to go just yet.
By the way, I didn't make the guide -- that's Darksol the Painbringer. I just posted in here originally because the link to this discussion thread was messed up on the Zenith Games Guide to the Guides (it's fixed now). This guide doesn't have to cover EVERYTHING to cover quite a lot. Also, I'll give an example of where this guide DOES say something that should be covered in other guides about martial classes, but usually isn't: While Power Attack is often good, it isn't always good (this piece of advice is even more important for non-full BAB classes, even though those aren't what this guide is about). An awful lot of guides just say you always want Power Attack.
I didn't realize this discussion thread got traffic recently, my apologies. I'll answer some questions/concerns being raised so as to help explain things:
@ Grokk_Bloodfist: I find the guide helps out the best when you're first looking at playing the class to a strong level, as the guide is overly-explainable when it comes to a lot of the choices, such as race, feats, traits, etc. It also tries to explore the more unorthodox playstyles, such as Dexterity-focused builds via Elven Curved Blade, a Mounted Fighter build with a scalable mount or even companion pet, etc. When you're coming across players who already have an idea what they're supposed to do with a class and have the general understandings of what to do, the helpfulness of the guide diminishes, since they look at several of the 'good' options I have highlighted and go "Well duh, of course every Fighter is going to take that feat. Who wouldn't?"
As much as I would like to post playtested builds that are almost guaranteed to work in a generic Pathfinder setting, there are two problems presented. The first one is that I don't really have any playtested builds, as I only play in what many would call severely homebrewed games, and I don't have any group of people to play with to actually get any data gathered. The two builds I posted are ones that I simply theorycrafted and built using about 75% of the guide's suggestions, and about 25% of my own intuition for what I want from the build. More accurately, the single one I built, since the first one is simply a 'fun build' I made to express the absolute limits of the class, and that build I made to show that even if a Fighter invests a fair amount into outside combat utility, can still provide a great source of damage in the heat of battle.
So, in attempts to solve this problem, I was hoping that the Pathfinder community would suggest builds they have made for games in the past (and fit the criteria that I cite for the guide, in that it uses the same materials as the guide says are acceptable, etc). Unfortunately, nobody has stepped up yet (that I know of), so it remains empty. I certainly welcome builds with a set design value in place, regardless of how quirky it is.
The Sunder stubs I wrote originally because the rules as worded only allowed single attacks, of which Vital Strike would synergize perfectly with (along with Furious Focus, and the other related feats), but with the Sunder FAQ released, saying that you can substitute the Sunder maneuver with any given attack, not just the attack action as it is written, the usefulness of Vital Strike and the related feats went down since Sunder then fell onto the same paradigm.
Lastly, I initially supported Vital Strike in that it is a great way to get the biggest bang for your buck if your iterative attack bonuses are suffering, however, the cons that the other, more knowledgable forum-posters stated had me turn the other cheek. You also have to remember what all Vital Strike is for: 1 attack. In one round. And you have to invest several feats to keep it effective at all levels of play (which can be applied to other, more beneficial feats). It's just not worth it when I can be slaying 3 or 4 mooks, or even the BBEG himself, in a single round by pumping my attack bonuses (and my damage bonuses, if my Power Attack doesn't make me miss a lot). Hell, my 'fun build' casually kills 2 balors in a single round without any consumables or temporary buffs active, according to the DPR he pulls out on average. Stacking them, he could just not roll a 1 on any enemy across his iterative attacks, and perhaps get 50% more damage out of his given DPR. If we're talking Sunder, I could sunder 5 pieces of gear in a single round, essentially cutting a given enemy's magic item effectiveness down at least 25%, if not more.
With the Vital Strike feat chain, I would kill 1 balor or sunder only 1 piece of gear if I was lucky, regardless of if I got a critical or not, which translates to this: Iterative bonuses win out in the grand scheme of things. But do they suffer in the levels? Probably. But that's exactly what being able to retrain the bonus feats are for.
@ Blakmane: I have Acrobatics listed as a little higher than Stealth because of its potential combat uses in addition to its conventional out-of-combat utility, of which Stealth would be at least equivalent to, if not superior. Being able to close the gap without provoking AoOs as well as avoiding a crevasse that will end up getting you trapped and dead is something that's infinitely more useful than being able to avoid combat/detection from enemies that you should be able to cleave their face(s) in without issue, assuming you're optimized. Our class features aren't exactly dependant upon being seen like some other classes, *cough*Rogue*cough*, so I find its mere out-of-combat value doesn't outweigh the combat value that Acrobatics can potentially have, especially when you can get hit from regular mooks quite easily.
Additionally, Acrobatics is only shunted through Armor Training because Acrobatics cannot be used unless your movement is not hindered from armor, of which Armor Training allows, and is the reason why Stealth would otherwise be a more valuable choice. A 7th level Fighter with Armor Training, the Armor Expert trait, and a Mithril Full Plate has a 0 Armor Check Penalty, and isn't restricted in movement, meaning he moves just as fast as that light-armored/armorless punk. Granted, this mobility doesn't come out of the gate, it certainly makes a difference in the later levels when you're scraping for a basic sort of defense.
Perception doesn't scale as wildly as CMD (since CMD has more statistical modifiers factoring into its calculated, such as Strength, Dexterity, BAB, size, etc. and these only increase in the higher levels, where there becomes more variety and higher of all of those statistics, before specialization and such), but it still scales. I imagine any basic creature who actually has perception would have maximum ranks, and would be opposing it just as much. But as I said above, there's no reason you need to tip-toe around something that you should easily crush into a thousand pieces in 2 or 3 rounds tops, but there is much more reason to properly avoid the attacks of mooks that will wear you down before you even get your licks in on a BBEG.
I've addressed the 'toothy' argument in the FAQ section as to why I have it the way it is. I don't need to add to that much more than what's already there.
@ Strayshift: If you have a build ready, you can send it to me via PM, I'll look it over and see if I can't slap it on the guide for those who wish to dabble in multi-classing.
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As a brand new player to Pathfinder, I say thank you for this guide.
BUT, your math on the point buy is off.
Your Standard Fantasy point buy is only 13 points.
Your High Fantasy point buy is only 18 points.
Your Epic Fantasy point buy is only 24 points.
Maybe I'm calculating wrong. Yesterday was my first Pathfinder game.
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As a brand new player to Pathfinder, I say thank you for this guide.
BUT, your math on the point buy is off.
Your Standard Fantasy point buy is only 13 points.
Your High Fantasy point buy is only 18 points.
Your Epic Fantasy point buy is only 24 points.
Maybe I'm calculating wrong. Yesterday was my first Pathfinder game.
Reviewing the point buy, your calculations seem to be correct, good to know I've been shortchanging people all this time...
Should be up to snuff now.
Quite enjoying your guide, not sure if you're still updating, but wanted to mention that for the Courageous weapon special property it boosts all morale bonuses to anything by half the enchantment bonus.
Not sure how many morale bonuses a Fighter sees, but can be nice with either someone who has taken the flagbearer feat (a nice + half enchantment bonus to hit and dmg), or when paired with the Furious property and a friendly caster who knows Rage (a +2 Furious Courageous weapon would net you an effective +4 enchancement and an extra +2 str/+2 con and +2 to will saves). Admittedly these are more corner cases that require some teamwork, but certainly better than half enchancement bonus to saves against fear.
Courageous only gives a bonus to fear saves, not all morale bonuses. faq
This reminds me that I should apply the current errata to the guide, so people are up to snuff on their character options. I'll work on that right now.
QUICK UPDATE
-The Errata for Ultimate Equipment has been applied, and their impact on the character choices (and existing builds) have been implemented.