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Easy, you use it to turn yourself into something with 3 natural attacks (I'm fond of Trogolodytes and Lizardmen). 3 natural attacks at full bab +Arcane Accuracy gives you the attacks (if you decide to spellcombat as well it's 4 natural attacks).If you take the Prehensile Hair hex you get 5 natural attacks. At higher levels you can easily get 10+ attacks around at full Bab and a LOT of extra damage per hit (using the exact same stats you'd use on a dex based magus for str based can easily do +15 to +18 damage per hit and you get a LOT of hits)
10+ attacks at full BAB ... And you are turning into what?
Surely you aren't using Alter self, so what spell and what form?What is the effect on your AC?
BTW, Prehensile Hair is a secondary attack if used to deal damage, so no full BAB there.
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Easy, you use it to turn yourself into something with 3 natural attacks (I'm fond of Trogolodytes and Lizardmen). 3 natural attacks at full bab +Arcane Accuracy gives you the attacks (if you decide to spellcombat as well it's 4 natural attacks).If you take the Prehensile Hair hex you get 5 natural attacks. At higher levels you can easily get 10+ attacks around at full Bab and a LOT of extra damage per hit (using the exact same stats you'd use on a dex based magus for str based can easily do +15 to +18 damage per hit and you get a LOT of hits)
10+ attacks at full BAB ... And you are turning into what?
Surely you aren't using Alter self, so what spell and what form?
What is the effect on your AC?BTW, Prehensile Hair is a secondary attack if used to deal damage, so no full BAB there.
Usually you are turning into either a Four Armed Gargoyle or the [url]http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/calik ang]Calikang[/url] for 6 attacks then using spell combat + Hasted Assault + prehensile hair for 3 more attacks. You're also doing this from 15-20 feet away so you get all the AoO's these cause as well. Routinely 2-3 round has been my expectation since you threaten so much of the battlefield.
There are about 3-4 other great forms I use but these give the most extra attacks.And yes you are right you get the secondary penalties on the hair hex but since as I said in the original post your main job is delivering spell effects onto the target you are using those 3 hair attacks as touch attacks to deliver the spell 3 times that round. This usually gives you a better to-hit chance then being at full bab and the int bonus to damage is incidental to this..
edit: Missed 2 of your questions.
Your AC actually goes up based on which spell you use (alter self increases it by 2), and since you are staying in a humanoid form you get to keep all your armor and gear.
At the higher levels you use Monstrous Physique I & II, which pump your AC by 3 and give you a whole host of other abilities as well.
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Even if a spell has multiple charges you get 1 extra attack with spellstrike only the round you cast the spell, and only 1 extra attack.
Turning into a four armed gargoyle (3.5. monster) require monstrous physique II and the gargoyle has no hair for the hex.
It seem very far from kosher.
Edit to your edit:
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.
Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.
No mention of an Ac bonus, unless you mean that you are turning into a small creature and so you get a +1 to Ac for small size and +1 for the increase dexterity at the expense of a lower damage.
Monster physique II give you 4 points of natural armor, -2 to dexterity and large make you lose 2 points and I really doubt that human shaped armor will work on the four armed gargoyle.
"When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size."
The equipment resize, it don't get extra holes to allow for the extra arms.
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You get one extra attack from Spell combat not Spellstrike and one extra attack from Hasted Assault AND one attack from Prehensile hair.
As for the 4 armed gargoyle:
A. it's from one of the carrion crown AP books so totally legal.
B. I did say we were using MP II. (When I want to get a 4 armed form with MP I you just use the sahuagin mutant which is much easier)
C. Many gargoyle statues are actually carved with hair and several depictions of gargoyles in game show them with hair AND state the naturally modify their appearance to to fit their surroundings. Nothing in the hex description ever states the hair has to be there, it specifically states it GROWS the hair when you use the hex. If you'll look at the polymorph school it states:
You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.
Even as a bald Gargoyle I can invoke this power and grow the hair anyway.
edit: You are correct on the Alter self AC change. I still make that mistake but all that means is your AC stays the same since Alter self keeps you as a medium size creature. and going to large size only makes you lose 1 pt of AC.
All magical armor resizes to fit you as long as you stay humanoid, Otherwise noone would ever be able to cast any of the spells that grant you wings (looking at you Aasimar Paladins. Anything else is an arbitrary limitation put on you by a jerkish DM.
Next question?
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So Paizo has reprinted the four armed gargoyle, if was from COTC. Ok.
For the rest read Edit to your edit.
And link a picture of those haired gargoyle, I am curious to see them.
BTW: 6+3 give 9 attacks
Melee bite +15 (1d8+6), 4 claws +15 (1d6+6/19–20), gore +15 (1d4+6) = 6
Hair, spell combat*, Hasted Assault = 3
*
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
Where is your "light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand"?
You need to wield it and so attack with it. Now all your natural attack are secondary.|
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Well linking to artwork we don't own is frowned upon here on the boards however if you want it from Fiction look at the Gargoyles Cartoon.
If you want it from real world History Look here, or here or here.
6+3=9 +2-3 AoO's equals 10+. You want even more you can give up a claw attack and replace it with a 2-3 sword swings for 14ish attacks and use arcane accuracy/multiattack to negate the secondary attack penalties.
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If you wish to continue this conversation don't rehash things that have already been stated in this thread. Also the advantage of natural weapons is they are ALWAYS wielded even when your hands are empty. Unlike iterative weapons natural attacks are never sheathed and are always available and ready to use (unless you put something in that appendage preventing you from using them).
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ap, to repeat it again: You can't use spell combat unless you are wielding a "light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand".
So unless you something disproving that clear rule your example is full of holes.
You are constantly using assumptions that you never explain. It is not useful to get what you are suggesting. If you want to give advice do it in a complete form, like Quandry did, making vague statements isn't useful.
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and to repeat again: Natural weapons are ALWAYS considered wielded unless you have something occupying the appendage that contains the natural weapon. There is no unsheathe/sheathe action for them. No creature that possesses natural weapons ever has to ready them and there is no action called to prepare them. Just like there is no action necessary for a monk to prepare to punch or kick. ONLY manufactured weapons require you to ready them or decide between wielding or holding. Those are spelled out in the rules for them, there is no such entry for natural or unarmed attacks.
As for Quandry all he did was state an assumption with no backing in rules or examples. If that is what it takes to convince you well I can see this conversation going nowhere.
Moving on to the next poster, anyone else have questions?
Incorrect, the rules for spell combat state:
To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.
Yes, that is the primary limiter for if you can use spell combat at all.
I think it's certainly reasonable to believe that 'wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand' precludes natural weapons (like claws) since they aren't IN the hand, they are OF the hand (preventing holding objects/weapons in that hand, but they are not held in the hand themself).But that isn't really the main thing I was talking about. (I personally would probably let you use UAS iteratives or 1 Claw attack with Spellcombat)
I'm talking about what Spell Combat actually DOES, period.
To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell...
That is melee weapon not natural weapon, and that is 'his melee weapon' in the singular tense. So no multiple weapons, just all the (iterative+haste/etc) attack(s) you may make with ONE light or one-handed melee weapon. Anything else you might normally do with a Full Attack (outside of the scope of one weapon) isn't accomplished by this. In fact, it's not even technically a Full Attack for anything that matters for, it's just a 'unique' full-round action (compare to Flurry which is used via the Full-Attack Action, not 'a Full Round action').
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Quandryand to repeat again: Natural weapons are ALWAYS considered wielded unless you have something occupying the appendage that contains the natural weapon. There is no unsheathe/sheathe action for them. No creature that possesses natural weapons ever has to ready them and there is no action called to prepare them. Just like there is no action necessary for a monk to prepare to punch or kick. ONLY manufactured weapons require you to ready them or decide between wielding or holding. Those are spelled out in the rules for them, there is no such entry for natural or unarmed attacks.
As for Quandry all he did was state an assumption with no backing in rules or examples. If that is what it takes to convince you well I can see this conversation going nowhere.
Moving on to the next poster, anyone else have questions?
I find Reach Weapons are a great way to get a free attack against an enemy moving to attack you (or an ally, etc).
and then explain how she use them and why she use them.
That is what I was referring to.You
Basic math breakdown for you, a 4th level magus can spend 2 rounds casting shocking grasp twice for 8D6 + weapon damage (usually about 3D6 more) or you can cast Alter Self for (3D6+ strx3) first round then Frostbite for (6D6 +3xstr +3xlvl) the second round. If given a single round to prep the numbers skew even further in favor of the charged spells and requires fewer resources to maximize. At higher levels it gets even worse. (20D6+10 crits vs 18D6+90 regular attacks at 10th level, which would you take?)
Getting the explanations on how you do that has required several posts and you are still not explaining some of your assumptions.
As an example:
"Natural weapons are ALWAYS considered wielded unless you have something occupying the appendage that contains the natural weapon."
I suppose that the assumption is:
"natural weapons count as light or one-handed melee weapon so the magus can use spell combat with natural weapons"
but what you didn't say that.
And I don't see any rule supporting this idea.
The point isn't wielding, is what you wield. The magus has a restriction in the weapons that he can wield while using spell combat and claws don't fulfil the requirements.
So for your build to work the gargoyle need to use a light or one handed melee weapon. using the melee weapon make all of his natural attack secondary.
At that point you don't get your full BAB attacks.
clear?
So she have enought spells to cast shield AND deliver touch spell at lvl 4? She'll have something like 6 spells pr day + cantrips.
I guess she don't see the need for shield often? Or do you guys just have short adventure days?
But it is good to hear that some magus seems to survive low levels. She used a whip? I guess if the barbarian and Ronin want's to be in the front shield isn't that important.
Now tell me about this " a summoned mount combined with whip would be an incredible combination."
Cilk, that's her name Uses the close range arcana, so she can use ranged spells as touch spells.
which lets her use acid splash as a touch spell, so, unlimited spell combat. It's not much but it gives her the ability to spell combat without running out of spells and she can save the higher level spells like shocking grasp for when they count.
No she doesn't cast shield often, not at this level, just when it's important, like boss fights or if there's a meany.
On a summoned mount (like the mount or phantom steed spell) she would have greater mobility and be able to stay out of range from a meleeist that was advancing on her.
The summoned mount doesn't have the limitation of the bonded mount of say a cavalier because you cant dungeon crawl with one, do you have a big enough room or area? Summon the mount.
Draw back? Low HP for the summoned mounts, but a bad guy would have to take an attack or spell to take out your mount, which is the same as them wasting an attack or a spell that isn't aimed at you.
could get caught in an AOE but there aren't a ton of those at this level.
Flight hex will also have similar benefits as an advancing baddie can't reach you if you are say 10 feet off the ground, but you can whip him. She's not high enough level for flight, but will be at "mid level".
later on, with summon monster III or so you could get mounts that might even last after getting hit more than twice.
Either way, the more mobility, the more you will vex you standard foot soldier baddie.
After 10th level, it's a no brainer the magus really holds its own. It's just being inventive at lower levels and figuring out how to use what you have.
Cilk will eventually get wand wielder, as well, but wands and scrolls can really help out for the shields and mounts the character might need from time to time.
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Rather questionable munchkinfu
I'm curious as to what kind of a crackpot DM would go with this "interpretation" of the rules...wilding ignore the SINGULAR weapon clause or the fact that if natural attacks DID count as light melee weapons for the point of spell combat then you'd actually NEVER have any hands free and spell combat would NEVER be usable as everyone would have a light melee weapon in their other hand with unarmed strike and as such makes absolutely ZERO sense. Sorry, but giving advice that isn't gonna fly in 99.99% of the games ain't exactly helpful.
1) Summon mount - well first concentration checks for mounted combat.
At lvl 10 concentration is no longer a problem. But before that, risky.
I'm still not sure about the stay out of range part. She needs to bewithin 30 feet to use her Hex, and 10 feet to use her whip. Well within charge range...
But +1 to hit from higher ground - let's not forget that!
2) "acid splash as a touch spell, so, unlimited spell combat." - okay - I just read it as she used shocking grasp to take down tons of "gray maidens" - she use spellcombat with acid splash to take down a lot of these things (what are they anyway?)
3) Stay out of reach - fly + reach weapon - roger - well as long as the party has a decent tank that should work. If the party is more glasscanons (which i'm afraid the magus could become) everyone need to take their share of the hits.
4) natual weapons and spellcombat. Well I would like an official ruling on that one.
- I feel the rules are "a bit unclear", when does a natural weapon count as light weapon, can natural weapons be used in any way with spellcombat.
And how does spells with charges work with multiple natural attacks.
So please mark for faq:
5) "it's just a 'unique' full-round action" - good point.
6) "If you wish to continue this conversation don't rehash things that have already been stated in this thread" - it's quite ok to ask for clarification.
Re: gray maidens, normally a heavy armored fighter charging down on you could be a problem, as they have the advantage. But in the case of shocking grasp they don't its a touch attack. The other players had trouble hitting the 21 ac.
Cilk also used a wand of magic missiles a lot to do the same thing (umd)
Concentration rolls aren't a big deal for a magus, it's always defensively casting, this is part if the class, much easier to make a check to cast spells riding around on a horse than it is getting chopped by a battle axe.
The acid splash keeps the magus spell combating , giving her two attacks when she can take it without chewing up a good spell just to do it. Without casting something se can't spell combat. Which means she's down to just a whip crack.
I've never seen a combat where a non flying Mage could put himself out of charge range. Plus the farther a Mage is from his buddies the farther he is from help.
A magus can put a flaming sphere between her and mr metal and shield and whip at him from her horse. She can break away from him without provoking an aoo at 10 feet of range, he can't five foot step and full attack because he can't reach her. She has greater movement on the mount and things like grease , flaming sphere and web can make for fun things to ride around and vex melee monkies.
If you are looking to go toe to toe with fighters at low levels its not going to work, especially since you won't have acces to hexes and arcana yet.
Limitations you mentioned for hexes are also limits for witches who are even worse off if someone in bug heavy armor tries to charge them.
The hexcrafter can fly at 5 th level, but she's going o have to change her tactics a lot as none of her abilities are all day long or lather rinse repeat one hit wonders until higher level
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A couple of things about the survivability of a Magus at low levels...
Firstly, if following standard Pazio APs (or similar) then surviability for any character at low levels is usually pretty darned easy, mostly due to dropping the bad guys before they have much of an opportunity to do anything about it.
That said, a low-level Magus isn't usually built as a front-line 'meat shield' and shouldn't really be played like one. Their basic combat configuration matches a Rogue - so if the Rogue would hesitate to just charge in to face the enemy, then the Magus should probably be thinking twice about it too. Light armour and no shield make for a sucky AC until you can start to mitigate that with magic (or avoid the need for AC at all with the same). A d8 Hit Die only puts you an averge of 1 HP per level behind a d10 Hit Die guy (2 points behind at level 1 with maxed HP, naturally), but you're also slightly more MAD (needing Intelligence as well as Strength and Constitution), so may have a bit less from that too.
If you're wanting to play a 'Strength-based' Magus, then your aim is probably to be getting in as many attacks as possible (to make the most from that static bonus damage provided by your Strength). There are many other ways to play a Magus, but if this is what you're aiming for, then you probably do want to be spamming Spell Combat with melee touch spells as much as possible, to gain those extra attacks. Luckily, as a Hexcrafter, you add all level 6 or below spells with the curse descriptor to your spell list. This includes the zero-level melee touch spell brand - take this, and spam it with Spell Combat all the time. This is one of the main reasons to ever play a Hexcrafter in the first place! Now you can use Spell Combat all day, every day, and essentially have two attacks (on a full attack) from level 1 up. Any extra effects from the spell are just the cherry on top - your main goal is the extra attack, because your build is Strength-focused. If you have prep-time before a fight then at low-levels enlarge person is pretty much a must for this type of build: lasts all fight, boosts Strength (thus boosts static damage) and boosts weapon damage die size too. Plus the extra reach is nice (although reach as a defense is often less good than people imagine - at most you get an AoO against a guy who couldn't 5ft step next to you, and without investment in Combat Reflexes and Dexterity all it takes is one mook to soak your AoO for the rest of the bad guys to swarm you... so nice, but hardly invincible).
If you're wasting spells per day casting shield at very low levels then you're not dropping the bad guys fast enough! As you approach the mid-levels, when you've got spells per day to spare, then shield does become a worthwhile cast (especially when it starts to last you more than a single combat) if you're still relying on AC as your bread-and-butter combat defense.
Playing a Strength-based Hexcrafter means you should probably stay away from Hexes which grant a save - for them to be really effective you need to be playing an Inteligence-based Hexcrafter (sort of a 'combat-Witch' I guess...). Your choice of really effective Hexes will be somewhat limited, because your basic tactic is to be spamming Spell Combat for maximum attacks per round. The cackle Hex, for example, is amazing for a Witch who is casting or hexing each round, and has the spare Move action to burn, but pretty useless to a Strength-based Hexcrafter. You only ever need to take one Hex as a Hexcrafter, of course, so you could go for something to round out the character's abilities (like cauldren or disguise or flight). If you could sneak it past your GM you could take the nails Hex and not wear shoes or socks - using your toenails as an extra couple of natural attacks in your full attack routine... but be prepared to field cries of 'cheese' (from a game rules point of view as well as a no shoes or socks point of view... ;) ).
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Rather questionable munchkinfuI'm curious as to what kind of a crackpot DM would go with this "interpretation" of the rules...wilding ignore the SINGULAR weapon clause or the fact that if natural attacks DID count as light melee weapons for the point of spell combat then you'd actually NEVER have any hands free and spell combat would NEVER be usable as everyone would have a light melee weapon in their other hand with unarmed strike and as such makes absolutely ZERO sense. Sorry, but giving advice that isn't gonna fly in 99.99% of the games ain't exactly helpful.
That "crackpot" gm would be SKR from the Feb 7, 2012 Faq Attack Blog. Here I'll quote it for you since noone seems to pay attention to the rules updates.
Can a magus use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, move, and make a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the touch spell, all in the same round?Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat. So, just like casting a touch spell, a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.
On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell.
However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.
I bolded the two most important parts where he states it's not a singular weapon it's any weapon you put in that hand. So once you use spell combat to cast the spell you can channel it through ANY weapon you have in that hand for spellstrike purposes, for that one bonus attack granted by that ability then it defaults back to the regular rules for touch spells.
After you have channeled that single charge through your weapon (whatever weapon that is at the time) then you go back to the regular rules of touch spells,However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.
and every natural attack requires you to touch your target so the charges are dispelled as normal.
Here's the exact rules quote for you (am I the only one who bothers to back up an interpretation with actual rules quotes in this whole mess of an argument?)
If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
It's extremely simple, use spell combat to cast a spell and take however many attacks you are entitled to for that round. THEN use Spellstrike to channel it through any weapon you are wielding per the rules of SpellStrike:
whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through ANY weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
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As a natural weapon using character your weapons are always wielded (since there is no way to ever un-wield them or put them away in the same way that a monk is always armed and always wielding his weapon ie; fist)
More to the point, everything I've stated here has been backed up with quotes of the core rules and direct clarifications from the Devs all responses knocking it have been kneejerk responses based on how individual posters "FEEL" the rules should work.
I have no problem accepting if my interpretation or facts are wrong all I have ever asked for is some actual game rule showing my interpretation is wrong or even suspect. Unless you can show something, anything somewhere that this isn't how the rules of the game actually work then you are just cluttering the discussion with your background noise.
I've brought the rules showing how I CAN do this, you need to bring the rules showing I can't.
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More munchkinfu later...
Yeah...SKR's comment about holding a charge is irrelevant. All he is saying is that you can grab A WEAPON...as in singular and not discharge the held spell. Spell combat STILL LIMITS YOU TO ONE WEAPON...so even if you COULD use natural weapons...and that is a BIG if, you get to pick one and attack with JUST that one. You don't get the full attack pattern. All you have stated is that you have a rather flimsy grasp of the rules and your willing to try and bend utterly unrelated items to try and make yourself seem more knowledgeable.
More to the point, the reply you got to your suggestion on this board suggest that at any given gaming table, it will get shut down. What SKR, JJ or any of the DEVs say when the reaction you get from the vast majority of us is gonna be...WTF? Umm HELL no. So YOU can run the game your way, but I can assure you that the chances of you finding a game you can run the magus your way will be slim.
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BTW note that at level 1 a Hexcrafter spamming brand and Spell Combat is only getting the 1 point of brand damage extra out of the deal... so until level 2 when he gets Spellstrike it's statistically better to just two-hand his weapon... but no-where near as much fun! ;p
Also - a 'Strength-based' Hexcrafter is somewhat of a weird beastie (do-able, but hardly optimal), since Hexcrafters are usually all about the debuff magic (curse spells and Hex effects), which usually means the Magus really should be an Intelligence-based character first and foremost. That is to say, he should probably be maxing his Intelligence before he even considers other Ability Scores, in order to up the save DC on his spells and Hexes. Remember that as a 2/3rds casting class the Magus is already losing out on spell save DC in comparison with the full-casters - a Hexcrafter would usually be focused on keeping that save DC as high as possible, wth everything else a secondary consideration.
@Mathwei - great with some quotes.
I really want the magus to be able to use natural weapons, but I'm not sure the rules support this:
Spellstrike.
Not much confusion here any more as far as i can see.
If you have a touch spell with a charge, you have 4 options;
a) deliever it as a touch attack
b) Use unarmed strike (normal attack, unarmed strike dam + spell dam)
c) use a natural weapon (normal attack natural weapon dam +spell dam)
d) with spellstrike - use a weapon (normal attack, weapon dam +spell dam)
I think we can all agree on that part. Yes?
Now Spell combat:
This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand
Again this is spell COMBAT - can we use natural weapon here?
You argue that natural weapons are considered "light weapon" - but I can find no rule that support this.I could find weapon finesse:
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
But all this tell me is that for this specifik feat - natural weapons are considered light weapons.
But then they could just have written "With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category or a natural weapon"- they didn't so I'm not sure. And any rule that's unclear puts us out of RAW and into RAI. (thus my - ASK FOR FAQ)
The second part "while wielding". Are you tecnically wielding a natural weapon? - Ask an english professor. But then again paizo makes great products, but could spend more on editting.
The last part:
As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty)
Here the magus can as a full-round action (not as part of a full attack) cast a spell (if this is a touch spell he can at anytime during his turn use a free action to deliver it using option a) b) c) or d) from above (so here the magus CAN use a natural attack)
BUT - it also says "make all of his attacks with his melee weapon"
"melee weapon".
Well claws aren't "ranged weapons". And they ARE weapons.
So is there any diffence between a "Melee weapon" and a "non-ranged natural attack?"
I'm not sure - but they do discribe the same thing - a weapon you use in melee...
So can anyone point me to a quote that tells us when it's important if something is one or the other?
And if not - please join my ASK FOR FAQ
Come to think about it
There is a diffence between "ranged weapons" and "melee weapon"
But what is not an "natural attack"? - that would be a "manufactored weapon".
So If melee weapons is just weapons that isn't ranged - then natural weapons are melee weapons.
Had a look at "natural weapons"
[url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks[/url].
Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon).
That woul imply - when they say "weapon" - natural attacks doesn't count.
As previously mentioned, the hex nails will give your hexcrafter natural weapons and there are feats like eldritch claws etc which are fun. Our magus considered this, but went whip instead, prehensile hair is a decent one too, if, like our magus, her isn't is higher than her str
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More munchkinfu later...Yeah...SKR's comment about holding a charge is irrelevant. All he is saying is that you can grab A WEAPON...as in singular and not discharge the held spell. Spell combat STILL LIMITS YOU TO ONE WEAPON...so even if you COULD use natural weapons...and that is a BIG if, you get to pick one and attack with JUST that one. You don't get the full attack pattern. All you have stated is that you have a rather flimsy grasp of the rules and your willing to try and bend utterly unrelated items to try and make yourself seem more knowledgeable.
More to the point, the reply you got to your suggestion on this board suggest that at any given gaming table, it will get shut down. What SKR, JJ or any of the DEVs say when the reaction you get from the vast majority of us is gonna be...WTF? Umm HELL no. So YOU can run the game your way, but I can assure you that the chances of you finding a game you can run the magus your way will be slim.
Well first I quoted the rules for SPELLSTRIKE, not spellcombat which modifies how touch attacks work in relation to spellcombat by specifically changing it from one weapon to ANY weapn (and since it's the more restricted option it overrides the rules for spellcombat).
And two your insulting and disparaging comments have no place in a public forum where civil conversations are trying to be had.
Now I will politely direct you towards the "don't be a jerk" rule here and follow it up with a
"I hope I never have to play at one of your tables, you strike me as a rude and disparaging person. Good Day to you."
1) I'll less others comment on natural weapons - until i hear otherwise i'll assume they can't be used as part of spellcombat
2) mounted combat - ah the Dc is only 10+spell lvl. If you don't spend your traits on migical linage and wayang spell hunter - there should only be small chance to fail that.
3) "If you're wasting spells per day casting shield at very low levels then you're not dropping the bad guys fast enough!" - George the Glasscanon - famous last words.
4) "If you're wasting spells per day casting shield at very low levels then you're not dropping the bad guys fast enough!" - George the Glasscanon - famous last words.
- i would take wand mastery ASAP - buy a wand of shield - and cast shield at the start most fights :-)
5) So much more is should comment - no time now later...
More munchkinfu later...Yeah...SKR's comment about holding a charge is irrelevant. All he is saying is that you can grab A WEAPON...as in singular and not discharge the held spell. Spell combat STILL LIMITS YOU TO ONE WEAPON...so even if you COULD use natural weapons...and that is a BIG if, you get to pick one and attack with JUST that one. You don't get the full attack pattern. All you have stated is that you have a rather flimsy grasp of the rules and your willing to try and bend utterly unrelated items to try and make yourself seem more knowledgeable.
More to the point, the reply you got to your suggestion on this board suggest that at any given gaming table, it will get shut down. What SKR, JJ or any of the DEVs say when the reaction you get from the vast majority of us is gonna be...WTF? Umm HELL no. So YOU can run the game your way, but I can assure you that the chances of you finding a game you can run the magus your way will be slim.
but spell combat doesnt limit you to one weapon. it requires a light or one handed weapon in one hand and an empty hand to cast your spell. never says you are just limited to the attacks with weapon hand and spell. and since natural weapons are always considered light weapons you can make those attacks as well.
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The wand mastery arcana does nothing for the shield spell, since there's no associated DC for the spell.
You could use the wand wielder arcana to wand-cast shield at the start of combat, using spell combat... but at very low levels using a wand to cast a melee touch spell and spellstrike so you hit the bad guys with an extra spell and an extra melee attack is much more likely to be helpful. The best defence possible is making sure the other guys aren't in a state where they can hit you back...
Also, you don't get any arcana at all until level 3, then again at level 6, etc.. 'Very low levels' means just that... those first few levels when blowing your only spell slots (and actions) on casting shield at the start of every combat is generally a complete waste of time. Combats are over in one round, most of the time, at levels one to three, maybe two or three rounds up to level five. This is assuming standard AP fodder and a party which doesn't completely suck at combat, of course. Shield starts to get useful when it lasts longer than a single combat, and you have the spell slots to spare. Before that it's just not a good thing to be blowing your very, very, limited resources on, IMHO.
Unless you can be sure of having shield up a majority of the time (such as if you, for example, don't win initiative) then that spell does very little to mitigate a Magus's 'glass cannon' status. Being able to cast that spell for maybe two encounters (assuming enough Intelligence for a bonus level 1 spell) at level one, when most scenarios are built around something like five encounters also does very little to mitigate the class's glass cannon status.
Again, IMHO, of course.
a)
"and since natural weapons are always considered light weapons"
- Now that's what I'm looking for! Source?
(other than the weapon finesse feat)b) - "very low level" - I should have specified that in the OP.
So let's say level 1-6 (since you get medium armor at lvl 7 - and will have around 11 spells pr day + cantrips + the first Hex or two, if hexcrafter)
But i guess what you are saying - at low level - most things have low AC/HP - kill them asap - and save the spells for when something dangeous come up, then use them for damage..
c) I was made aware that Mathwei had answered the
"Spells like frostbite have charges. If a tengus magus with 2 claws and a bite attack cast Frostbite in round 1, can he make 3 natural attacks and deliver a charge with each attack in round 2?"
- yes he can.
Now I just have to find the source - so it will fly when i present it to my group.. The Bite part doesn't make sense to me - så have to find the source :)
There we go:
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
At
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combatNot under magic... Were the last part is missing...
So If i have 10 charges from a cast frostbite - and 5 natural attack. I can deliever frostbite with each natural attack for 2 rounds - Sweet!
No 3.5 rules about which and is holding the charge... .
natural attacks cannot be combined with iterative attacks, they get down graded to secondary attacks, this was all overly covered in the whole eidlion thing with people trying to make ones with attacks and weapons and all sorts of things.
the problem with a natural attack magus is that spell combat doesnt work in conjunction with multiple natural attacks.
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natural attacks cannot be combined with iterative attacks, they get down graded to secondary attacks, this was all overly covered in the whole eidlion thing with people trying to make ones with attacks and weapons and all sorts of things.
the problem with a natural attack magus is that spell combat doesnt work in conjunction with multiple natural attacks.
And where does it state that anywhere in the rules?
The only requirement we can find for using Spell combat is:
To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.
One hand empty? Check.
Weilding a light or one handed weapon ? All natural weapons are considered light weapons by RAW. Check.Where's the confusion?
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Weilding a light or one handed weapon ? All natural weapons are considered light weapons by RAW. Check.
Source?
The only point in the rules that I know where it say that is under the weapon finesse feat and it say:
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
Special generally mean that what it say is an exception to the rules that apply to that feat, not the norm.
Weilding a light or one handed weapon ? All natural weapons are considered light weapons by RAW. Check.
Source?
The only point in the rules that I know where it say that is under the weapon finesse feat and it say:
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
Special generally mean that what it say is an exception to the rules that apply to that feat, not the norm.
or the "special" can be used to clarify something that has not been specified but is relevent, which is how i consider the text for weapon finesse. and by the wording i would allow natural attacks to be used in conjunction with spell combat the same as unarmed attacks.
yes but you can spell and claw or claw claw bite, you cannot exploit casting a spell and using a claw claw bite sequence, you can do ONE or the other, not both.
yes but you can spell and claw or claw claw bite, you cannot exploit casting a spell and using a claw claw bite sequence, you can do ONE or the other, not both.
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty).
bold mine- that says make all your attacks and then cast. all you have to do is designate a claw attack to cast and then make the rest of your natural attacks with the full round action.
I'm running a Gnome Hexcrafter Magus right now that I absolutely love, built out to be a Fey Knight. Very "survivable" at low levels so far.
I'm going Weapon Finesse / Dervish build, going with the Fell Magic (Chill Touch and +1 DC on necro) and Bond to the Land (+2 AC in woods) alternate racial traits. Took Naturally Gifted (gnome) trait to get an extra Chill Touch, and Devotee of the Green for nature flavor.
With small size, 18 dex, shield spell, and bond to the land, I'm rolling with an AC of 25 in my favored terrain at 1st level, and counting racial stuff I've got 4 1st level spells a day. Got a Riding Dog for movement - those things are fantastic.
Plan to take Craft Magic Arms/Armor when I get 5th, and build myself a +1 keen spellstoring scimitar, to stick empowered intensified shocking grasps in, or perhaps bestow curses when available, to mitigate the flat spell pyramid.
if you get all your attacks with your weapon hand as a full attack action, there is no reason you cant use all of your natural attacks with spell combat as well. they are both full attack actions.
thank you i posted the whole part i was highlighting the first part.
@1-nothing says you cant use all of your weapons, and actually the very first sentence of that paragraph says, At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. the only requirements that must be met are that you have a light or 1 handed weapon in one hand and at least one hand free to cast spells.
the rules, SPECIFICALLY call out you cannot MIX natural attacks with iterative attacks, for example having TWF feat does NOT add an extra attack to a natural attack sequence. You can utilize the FEAT sequence as per normal, OR the natural attack sequence as per normal NOT both.
This has been gone through EXHAUSTIVELY. There are specific call outs for in under barbarian, for the bite rage power. And COUNTLESS threads and post on exactly this.
The Magus as a result, cannot break the way this works, he can use is sequential mechanics (ie spell combat, attack with the 'weapon' and then his spell) OR he can use his natural weapon sequence. Much like if you had a monk/magus he CANNOT Flurry, AND spell combat, he can Flurry OR Spell combat.
IF he has enough iterative attacks from BAB, Haste, or other source, then he can make those attacks including in the full combat action of Spell Combat. So he could use his claw as part of spell combat, but he cannot use spell combat as part of claw claw bite.
thank you i posted the whole part i was highlighting the first part.
@1-nothing says you cant use all of your weapons, and actually the very first sentence of that paragraph says, At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. the only requirements that must be met are that you have a light or 1 handed weapon in one hand and at least one hand free to cast spells.
Arlandor you are trying to break an entirely different set of rules. The ones that separate actions in a round. this was all gone through in the play testing of the class. You cannot take a single level of magus, for example to allow say a werewolf to claw claw bite spell. He can Claw Spell or Claw Claw Bite, he must choice which action that takes up his full combat round. IF the monster has say 6/1, then he can spell,claw,claw (or claw spell claw) thats the difference.
yes and natural attacks are weapons. so nothing is stopping a magus from using his claw attacks and then casting his spell. a full attack action is a full attack action. nothing i have read in the rules limits natural attacks from spell combat.
it is not breaking anything. if that was the case you would not be allowed to take your iterative attacks if you are just using one weapon. but it allows for a full attack action.
Arlandor, Ive just stated above, this has been argued already, you are wrong. You can ignore this and substitute your own reality all you want, you can mix iterative actions and natural weapon sequences to cheat an extra attack and make natural attacks look like a superior choice, it's been tried already, several times.
enough is enough.
really i have not seen one rules link the entire time this has been argued.
because the links are exhaustive and done again and again, but here:
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
Multiple Attacks: A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full-attack action (see Full-Round Actions) in order to get more than one attack
As quoted from the PRD.
so a magus with natural attacks (say claws) can swing one claw and cast one spell in spell combat, because the FREE hand to cast that spell, was used, so you cannot make a claw attack with it as well. Additionally since you are trying to make the natural weapon part of spell combat, as per above, it becomes a SECONDARY attack, meaning it suffers a -5 penalty (as opposed to say using a sword or a dagger).
Instead of wasting all OUR time. Spend some of your own: 1) READING ALL the rules and 2) do your own research on this topic, COMPLETE with re-reading everything that has ALREADY been posted on the subject over the course of YEARS. rather than requiring someone else to waste their time dragging your face through rules.
Let's get back on subject, discussing the survivability of a low level STR based magus, without the use of a poorly attempted rules exploit.
since you are so closed minded and rude i will leave this thread. i have read plenty, and i have only tried to help, not make an exploit. and reading your years of single mindedness on this subject from the forum wont help anyone since this clearly hasnt been faq'ed and its just your opinion of the rules. since you are using your primary natural attacks with spell combat i believe its debatable whether or not it would take the -5 penatly or not. we know you cant get multiple attacks with the same claw, and we know you cant attack with the claw that you cast a spell with. but nothing stats if you turned yourself into a four armed gargolye you cant attack with your 3 claws and cast a spell with your fourth. so until the faq it your bad attitude will do nothing but confuse people. good bye
I've been looking through the ultimate stuff guide and find myself thinking that the best possible weapon for a strength magus would be a masterwork or enchanted wyroot terbutje as it is basicly a wooden longsword and with an improved crit ability could be refunding arcane pool points 1/5th of the time
Does no damage when it crits though, right? Will the guy still take damage from the spell?