Hello!
I'm wanting to rework the Neutralize Poison spell into something not completely and totally worthless, and I'm wondering if anyone on here has already done that. How do you guys handle this spell in your campaigns?
Warning, sarcasm!
If it is not during the poison using creature turn, then it isn't instantaneous, and it is neutralized by the spell.
Ending Sarcasm.
In a low leathality campaign, all con damage is reversed by this spell.
In a high science campaign, even instant effects are caused by molecules of poison bonded with the victim's proteins or something. Neutralize poison turns this into salt water or something so such effects go away.
Warning, sarcasm!
If it is not during the poison using creature turn, then it isn't instantaneous, and it is neutralized by the spell.
Ending Sarcasm.
In a low leathality campaign, all con damage is reversed by this spell.
In a high science campaign, even instant effects are caused by molecules of poison bonded with the victim's proteins or something. Neutralize poison turns this into salt water or something so such effects go away.
I think I read this right. Are you saying that you mod it so that successful application removes all damage taken by the poison
If so, my problem isn't with the spell's eventual effect - in fact, I find that to be quite apposite - but rather in the low chance for that outcome to occur. Popping Neutralize Poison is just, mathematically, a terrible idea compared to the alternatives, alternatives that represent a significantly lower expenditure of resources.
So that's my problem. Neutralize poison is much harder to get off than its contemporaries. It may as well not exist. So I'm hoping for ways to make the spell more viable in that regard.
One solution: Make wands and potions of neutralize poison.
Another solution: Let clerics with the Healing/Restoration domain convert spells into neutralize poison as needed.
A third solution: Use Antitoxin as a power component.
A fourth solution: Allow a little real-world science to intrude and let antitoxins work as antivenin. Basically, the hair of the dog that bit you, but from a scientific angle. You use rattlesnake venom to make rattlesnake-specific antivenin. Cobra for cobra. And so on. For game rules, say that the antitoxin you make from a specific venom is still +2 for poisons in general when used as a power component, but +10 against that specific creature it was made from, and also restores all damage from the venom. What this means is that if you kill the giant wasp, someone with Craft Alchemy can quickly brew the antitoxin that will cure the effects of the wasp's venom.
One solution: Make wands and potions of neutralize poison.
But... why bother? This is extremely cost inefficient, when the cleric can toss on a communal delay poison then heal check/antitoxin the group as needed a few hours later. It's significantly cheaper and much more reliable.
Another solution: Let clerics with the Healing/Restoration domain convert spells into neutralize poison as needed.
Again, same thing. You've got, generally speaking, a much larger chance to succeed when using the above method rather than using neutralize poison. Why waste all those higher level spell slots?
A third solution: Use Antitoxin as a power component.
I'
ll admit I'm not familiar with this rule. How does this work?A fourth solution: Allow a little real-world science to intrude and let antitoxins work as antivenin. Basically, the hair of the dog that bit you, but from a scientific angle. You use rattlesnake venom to make rattlesnake-specific antivenin. Cobra for cobra. And so on. For game rules, say that the antitoxin you make from a specific venom is still +2 for poisons in general when used as a power component, but +10 against that specific creature it was made from, and also restores all damage from the venom. What this means is that if you kill the giant wasp, someone with Craft Alchemy can quickly brew the antitoxin that will cure the effects of the wasp's venom.
This seems like a cool, fun, thematic idea. But to be fair, it could work just as well with just the craft: alchemy skill. I do like it, though.
Here it is from the PFSRD:
Antitoxin
Source Core Rulebook
If you drink a vial of antitoxin, you get a +5 alchemical bonus on Fortitude saving throws against poison for 1 hour.
Alchemical Power ComponentsSource Adventurer's Armory
Like antiplague, antitoxin can augment certain healing spells.
Neutralize Poison (M): Add +2 on your caster level check to neutralize poison on a target creature. Antitoxin has no effect when you cast the spell on an object.
An alchemical power component is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell’s normal effects. What follows is a sample of these effects using this item as a component; your GM may allow other combinations.
Spells followed by an (M) expend the alchemical item as a material component;
Spells followed by an (F) use the item as a focus and do not expend it.
In both cases, the alchemical item does not have its normal effect and does not affect any other parameters of the spell. You cannot use the same item as both a focus and a material component at the same time.
You make antitoxin the same as any other alchemical item. This should be possible in the field with a portable alchemy lab. Brewing antivenin should be the same as antitoxin--It's basically just a house rule that makes any particular vial of antitoxin give an extra bonus against a specific poison and the ability to reverse damage from it.
To make neutralize poison still useful as a spell, I'd say that when the right antitoxin is used as a power component, it automatically overpowers the poison, no need for level checks. If the right antitoxin is used without magic, it allows a saving throw after the poisoning, rather than a bonus when taken before. If you make the save, the damage is undone, but it's not a sure thing like using neutralize poison with a power component.
Doesn't it still make you immune to poison for the duration?
It's a great buff if you're expecting any sort of poison effects, whether venomous bites, or toxic cloud spells.
Doesn't it still make you immune to poison for the duration?
It's a great buff if you're expecting any sort of poison effects, whether venomous bites, or toxic cloud spells.
If that were still the case, yes, it would be. It's changed since 3.5, however.
I'm a little worried about just converting to the 3.5 version, though. It's substantially more powerful, and I have to wonder if there was a reason that it was changed that I'm not familiar with. Hence, I'm wondering what methods you guys have for handling this and if they've caused any problems. :)
Pathfinder Version:
Neutralize Poison
School conjuration (healing); Level bard 4, cleric 4, druid 3, paladin 4, ranger 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (charcoal)
Range touch
Target creature or object of up to 1 cu. ft./level touched
Duration instantaneous or 10 min./level; see text
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)
You detoxify any sort of venom in the creature or object touched. If the target is a creature, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the DC of each poison affecting the target. Success means that the poison is neutralized. A cured creature suffers no additional effects from the poison, and any temporary effects are ended, but the spell does not reverse instantaneous effects, such as hit point damage, temporary ability damage, or effects that don't go away on their own.
This spell can instead neutralize the poison in a poisonous creature or object for 10 minutes per level, at the caster's option. If cast on a creature, the creature receives a Will save to negate the effect.
3.5 Version:
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 3, Pal 4, Rgr 3
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature or object of up to 1 cu. ft./level touched
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)
You detoxify any sort of venom in the creature or object touched. A poisoned creature suffers no additional effects from the poison, and any temporary effects are ended, but the spell does not reverse instantaneous effects, such as hit point damage, temporary ability damage, or effects that don’t go away on their own.
The creature is immune to any poison it is exposed to during the duration of the spell. Unlike with delay poison, such effects aren’t postponed until after the duration —the creature need not make any saves against poison effects applied to it during the length of the spell.
This spell can instead neutralize the poison in a poisonous creature or object for the duration of the spell, at the caster’s option.
Arcane Material Component
A bit of charcoal.
Immunity to Poison has been shifted over to become a class ability for alchemists. If it's made into something anyone can get cheaply from a druid, all sorts of dangers become less dangerous, and the idea of poisoning the king as being a reasonable means of assassination likewise falls flat. What sensible king wouldn't fire his food tasters and beef eaters and instead keep a couple druids on staff, paying them by not using his royal logging rights on some old growth forest or something like that?
The bottom also falls out of the poison market. If it can only be used to kill those too cheap or stupid to keep a druid on staff, who in their right mind is going to pay 4500 for black lotus extract, let alone 6500 for tears of death? Unless they have off-brand uses as aphrodisiacs, there's no way to justify those prices.
This doesn't mean that there can't be ways to become immune to poison, but they should be similarly costly.
I'm not seeing how Neutralize Poison is worthless. It completely removes a poison from a poisoned person immediately (the most you can do otherwise is give the person a buff to their save and wait it out) and it can suppress the effects of a poisonous creature for a really long time.
Ragnarok mentioned an often-overlooked portion of the spell: being able to use it to neutralize the poison of an enemy for the duration of a fight. With the save being Will, there are a lot of creatures that are going to fail this against a competent cleric. Saves the trouble of having to cast it on each person poisoned.
Crap, I should've re-read that before taking it on my oracle. Time to call the GM and see if I can swap it for that communal delay poison instead.
It may not be useless, but it's not going to cut it against those cloud spells any more, and a 4th level spell slot is a high price to pay for the luxury of an instant chance to stop a poison vs the guarantee of no damage for the duration of a 2nd level spell.
All this time and I'm still running into legacy 3.5 assumptions!
|
Ragnarok mentioned an often-overlooked portion of the spell: being able to use it to neutralize the poison of an enemy for the duration of a fight. With the save being Will, there are a lot of creatures that are going to fail this against a competent cleric. Saves the trouble of having to cast it on each person poisoned.
Yup. Saved my party from some serious hurt from a Catoblepas breath weapon once.
How about the feat Analyze Toxin. Prereq Alchemy +4 or more. They use up a small amount of the poison, and they can reverse all the effects of a poison.
A bag of wind will drive away a cloudkill spell, and Sleetstorm will wash it right out of the air. May be why Green Dragons stopped breathing clouds of poison gas.
Immunity to Poison has been shifted over to become a class ability for alchemists. If it's made into something anyone can get cheaply from a druid, all sorts of dangers become less dangerous, and the idea of poisoning the king as being a reasonable means of assassination likewise falls flat. What sensible king wouldn't fire his food tasters and beef eaters and instead keep a couple druids on staff, paying them by not using his royal logging rights on some old growth forest or something like that?That's exactly what I'm worried about, and exactly why I don't want to revert it to 3.5. I don't like abilities that straight give immunity... they alter combat... a lot. To be fair, though, that king could just, well, have druids keep delay poison on him all the time and scan him with detect poison every now and then. Realistically little difference.
I'm not seeing how Neutralize Poison is worthless. It completely removes a poison from a poisoned person immediately (the most you can do otherwise is give the person a buff to their save and wait it out)
But it does so with about half the bonus you'd have with other, cheaper methods (a 2nd or 3rd level spell, an antitoxin, and a healer's kit).
and it can suppress the effects of a poisonous creature for a really long time.
This is the one part of the ability that works... possibly well. What I'm concerned about is validity. It seems to me that a failed will save could have much more beneficial effects than having its poison taken away. Some monsters could be held, or dismissed, or cursed to lose half of their actions. Depending on the DM, they might get to know their poison doesn't work at which point all you've done is change the damage type the group is taking that round.
I feel like I haven't stated my problem with the spell clearly enough, though. I'm bolding here for emphasis, not for shouting: the spell is **comparatively** worthless, as compared to other methods of removing poison.
Yup. Saved my party from some serious hurt from a Catoblepas breath weapon once.
But wouldn't it have been significantly more efficient to cast a communal delay poison (probably reached with your reach metamagic rod), and just cure it afterwards? In fact, this way, you guarantee the monster's lost a round. Having one party member trade a round for the monster is a good deal. The other way, you might not be guaranteed to be able to do that. Plus, depending on the monster, they might open with this attack, so a preemptive strike may not be possible.
|
|
No, because I didn't have a Reach Metamagic Rod. In that campaign I frequently cast while in Wildshape and thus didn't bother much with Metamagic Rods in combat. I don't think I could have gotten more than half the party within touch range. We also weren't carrying antitoxin, which was admittedly an oversight - the guy who usually carried the nonmagical consumables had recently left the game and we hadn't picked up the slack.
In fact the Catoblepas did catch the Barbarian in the opening breath weapon and due to a series of bad saves (even with treatment!) and high rolls on the poison damage he nearly died. I am rather glad that the Bard wasn't exposed.
My DM in that campaign also threw a monster or two at us with significantly boosted poison DCs, so the preemptive use of Neutralize Poison, targeting the Will Save, was extra useful.
As for your comment on the other thread:
I really like the idea of altering the spell's instantaneous effects to remove damage and status effects gained. I don't like the idea of making the subject immune to poison and having the spell last long enough so that a high-level extended character need never worry about it again (though, honestly, communal delay poison and the above method basically does that....), but I don't mind the idea of making the spell make someone immune for the rest of the combat.
What do you all think about that? The spell, when successful, removes all current status afflictions caused by poison, then makes the target immune to poison for one round per caster level?
I don't have a problem with that, though personally I'm a fan of something that gives a part effect on a failure rather than a bigger effect on a success and none on a failure.
My DM in that campaign also threw a monster or two at us with significantly boosted poison DCs, so the preemptive use of Neutralize Poison, targeting the Will Save, was extra useful.
Hmm, in that case, the case of boosted poison DCs that are accompanied by a concomitant increase to will save, Neutralize Poison actually would be fairly useful. That sort of just hammers home to me the fact that it isn't in a normal situation, however.
As for your comment on the other thread:
I don't have a problem with that, though personally I'm a fan of something that gives a part effect on a failure rather than a bigger effect on a success and none on a failure.
There are a few other permutations of that that could work, then. Poison immunity for 1 round/level and status removal on a success, poison immunity on a failure, or poison delay on a failure, or something else along those lines.