SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Does Fighting Defensively improve your CMD? What about Total Defense?
RAW, it doesn't appear to, but RAI, I would think so.
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC until the start of your next turn.
RainyDayNinja RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 |
Hmm, that's actually tricky. In the rules for fighting defensively as a Standard Action, the AC bonus is untyped, and so wouldn't apply to CMD. But in the rules for fighting defensively as a Full-Round Action, and for Total Defense, it's a Dodge bonus, which does apply to CMD. So it looks like it was perhaps an oversight in the rules to leave the first one untyped. I'd probably rule that it applies for all of those.
The floor is lava |
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That looks like the wording for Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action. What's weird is how the wording for Fighting Defensively as a Full Round Action is different:
And it states earlier that all dodge bonuses stack, and that dodge bonuses apply to CMD, so...
Probably someone just missed it on the standard action, for I see no reason why the AC bonus would be different for the two
edit: ninja'd
Drejk |
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Lack of dodge type for fighting defensively AC bonus in Combat section is almost certainly an omission. Total defense grants dodge bonus to AC and what's more description of Acrobatics skill states:
Special: If you have 3 or more ranks in Acrobatics, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2, and a +6 dodge bonus to AC when taking the total defense action instead of the usual +4.
Also, if the fighting defensively AC bonus wasn't dodge bonus it would be kept while under effects that would prevent you from defending effectively (e.g. Fighter declares fighting defensively and is later hit with hold person - despite being completely immobile he still would get bonus to AC because he defends himself... which would not be the case with dodge bonus).
RainyDayNinja RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 |
Barry Armstrong |
I would actually say the RAW is correct. Here's why:
Fighting defensively as a standard action = no move action possible. So you can't move, dance, dodge, sidestep or retreat. So it's untyped.
Fighting defensively as a full round action = move action possible.
Dodge, duck, dive, dip, and.....dodge. So it's a Dodge Bonus.
Standard action doesn't add to your CMD, Full round would. Makes sense to me.
However, interpret and homebrew as you will.
Serum |
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I would actually say the RAW is correct. Here's why:
Fighting defensively as a standard action = no move action possible. So you can't move, dance, dodge, sidestep or retreat. So it's untyped.
Fighting defensively as a full round action = move action possible.
Dodge, duck, dive, dip, and.....dodge. So it's a Dodge Bonus.Standard action doesn't add to your CMD, Full round would. Makes sense to me.
However, interpret and homebrew as you will.
...except you're making a full attack while fighting defensively as a full-round action.
The floor is lava |
I would actually say the RAW is correct. Here's why:
Fighting defensively as a standard action = no move action possible. So you can't move, dance, dodge, sidestep or retreat. So it's untyped.
Fighting defensively as a full round action = move action possible.
Dodge, duck, dive, dip, and.....dodge. So it's a Dodge Bonus.Standard action doesn't add to your CMD, Full round would. Makes sense to me.
However, interpret and homebrew as you will.
Total Defense Action is a standard action:
You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can't combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat. You can't make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.
In this instance, since total defense grants you a dodge bonus to your AC, and since dodge bonuses also go to CMD as well, "this" standard action applies to CMD. Don't see why Fighting Defensively as a standard action would not apply as well.
Barry Armstrong |
Barry Armstrong wrote:...except you're making a full attack while fighting defensively as a full-round action.I would actually say the RAW is correct. Here's why:
Fighting defensively as a standard action = no move action possible. So you can't move, dance, dodge, sidestep or retreat. So it's untyped.
Fighting defensively as a full round action = move action possible.
Dodge, duck, dive, dip, and.....dodge. So it's a Dodge Bonus.Standard action doesn't add to your CMD, Full round would. Makes sense to me.
However, interpret and homebrew as you will.
Hmm, good point. Can't move while making a full attack either.
@ lilhewy: I spit in the face of nothing. I'm all about RAI over RAW in cases such as this. I just saw it from a certain perspective and I was enlightened otherwise by Serum, above. No need for snarky comebacks.
littlehewy |
.@ lilhewy: I spit in the face of nothing. I'm all about RAI over RAW in cases such as this. I just saw it from a certain perspective and I was enlightened otherwise by Serum, above. No need for snarky comebacks.
Sorry, was more of a cheeky comeback, not snarky, that's what the smiley face was for. Not intended to offend.
Your "interpret and homerule as you will" line did come across to me as insufferably arrogant, though, as if with the complete presumption that you were correct, and thus it was a foregone conclusion that those who disagreed would need to houserule to play that way. Which may have been not your intention at all, of course, but is why I felt a cheeky response was appropriate :)
littlehewy |
Not sure if the 'apology' was any better than the initial 'snark'
Well, then I'll apologise again. But if people are coming across in a way they're not aware of, then I think of it as helpful to point it out. Am I the only one that thinks ended a post in a rules discussion with any of the variants of "...but houserule/interpret it how you like..." is kind of, you know, arrogant-sounding? If Barry didn't know he came across that way, at least now he knows of my incorrect assumption, and why I thought it permissible to be cheeky.
And if Barry's intention was to sound like that, then I'm not too fussed anyway :) But I can't imagine he did, seeing his further posts.
Barry Armstrong |
What's the difference between cheeky and snarky?
And no, my intention was not to sound arrogant.
"However, intrepret and homebrew as you will" means, simply, if you have a different interpretation than I do, or you are a DM and your players disagree with your interpreation, you can play it as you wish or declare a house rule to shore up any confusion.
I did not mean to come off as "my way is correct and yours is not".
SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Quandary |
i'm pretty sure that untyped AC bonuses should also apply to CMD, since they apply to Touch AC.
CMD was errata'd once to include several bonus types that apply to Touch AC,
i would guess that Untyped was overlooked since it isn't a type per se.
here's hoping the next Core Rules printing/Errata rectifies that.
Umbranus |
it sounds like you are mixing up CMB and CMD?
attack penalties or bonuses don't apply to CMD, period, CMD is a target DC not an attack roll.
all attack penalties apply to CMB checks, most bonuses do as well (weapon specific ones requiring weapon usage)
I thought they applied to both.
Perhaps because I often calculate CMD by using CMBThanks for clearing that up.
Jeffrey Stop |
Does Fighting Defensively improve your CMD? What about Total Defense?
RAW, it doesn't appear to, but RAI, I would think so.
** spoiler omitted **
Old thread and may have been clarified elsewhere, but I think the confusion comes from using d20pfsrd as the source of truth. d20pfsrd does not list a type for the bonus granted for fighting defensively as a standard action, while Paizo's PRD and the Core Rulebook both list it as a Dodge bonus.
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC until the start of your next turn.
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.
And as noted elsewhere, a Dodge bonus to AC will apply to CMD as well. Fighting Defensively -- as a Standard action or a Full-round action -- appears to provide the exact same benefits.