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AoO on an AoO


Rules Questions


I'm glad this has never come up, but it popped up in my mind while playing through some possible scenarios.

Can you incur an attack of opportunity while making an attack of opportunity?

There aren't very many situations where this would happen, but the one I've been thinking about is in the case where someone without improved bull rush is coming at you and you use the attack of opportunity to try and trip them even though you don't have improved trip.

How would this go down?


They chain.

If someone provokes and AoE and you trip them without having improved trip, you provoke an AoE. They resolve that first, etc.


Ragnarok Aeon wrote:


Can you incur an attack of opportunity while making an attack of opportunity?

How would this go down?

Certainly.

You interrupt the provoking AOO to resolve the new AOO. You then return to the provoking AOO resolve what remains of it, then return to the original provoking act and resolve what remains of that.

If you are familiar with the term 'stack' then that would explain how it is resolved.

-James


It would go down confusingly. AoOs interrupt, so you resolve backwards. Let's say that he tries to trip you back (again without Improved Trip) when you try to trip him. If either of you had Combat Reflexes, then this would get insane, so let's say you don't. If he succeeds, then you'd have a -4 to your attempt to trip him, since you're prone. If you succeed, then he'd have a -4 to bull rush you (sliding into you I guess).

Dangit! Ninja'd again! <shakes fist>


So theoretically the person bull rushing could disarm the person trying to trip him. And thus one could counter a counter with a counter?


Ragnarok Aeon wrote:
So theoretically the person bull rushing could disarm the person trying to trip him. And thus one could counter a counter with a counter?

Only if you have combat expertise or a similar ability.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ragnarok Aeon wrote:
So theoretically the person bull rushing could disarm the person trying to trip him. And thus one could counter a counter with a counter?

Yup.

This happened in a game of Judge Dredd d20 I ran.

A cadet Judge managed to use the air ducts to interrupt a criminal who had his hands full operating some machinery, so his weapon was not to hand.

A succession of grapple attempts followed, both having high Dex, Combat Reflexes, and no Improved Grapple, so it became a game of 'one-potato-two-potato', with successive grabs, blocks, and escape moves (8 in all, I believe), until they both ran out of AoO, and one had hold of the other.

Then the perp's 'buddy' bull-rushed them both down a lift shaft.


Snorter wrote:


A cadet Judge managed to use the air ducts to interrupt a criminal who had his hands full operating some machinery, so his weapon was not to hand.

A succession of grapple attempts followed, both having high Dex, Combat Reflexes, and no Improved Grapple, so it became a game of 'one-potato-two-potato', with successive grabs, blocks, and escape moves (8 in all, I believe), until they both ran out of AoO, and one had hold of the other.

If the bad guy didn't have a weapon out, how would they be threatening to get an AOO at all?

-James


Ragnarok Aeon wrote:
So theoretically the person bull rushing could disarm the person trying to trip him. And thus one could counter a counter with a counter?

I would only allow the disarm to counter the trip completely if they're specifically using a trip weapon to avoid the possibility of being tripped in return. As long as you're incurring an AoO, you might as well use the least-vulnerable technique; if that's trying to kick someone's legs out from under them when you're not even a monk, then so be it.


AoOs work just like Instant spells in Magic: The Gathering. =^.^=


I always found it interesting how attacks of opportunity and combat reflexes interact with the action economy, by which I mean they lie completely outside of it and are also always at full bab (unless there's a rule I missed).


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Maerimydra wrote:
AoOs work just like Instant spells in Magic: The Gathering. =^.^=

Yes, they are not like split-second spells, and they don't function like sorcerys.


Heck technically the right AoO can even counter the whole chain of events!

There's a question if you did have multiple AoOs going off and the last one to be taken lets say crits with a scythe and kills the other guy do you still lose those other AoO till next round?


Attacks of Opportunity

Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down

.....its odd you have let your guard down due to doing something that is causing you to not be 100% on the ball, except you are sharp enough to take a free swing if something else does the same??


Yep strange that in leaving an opening you can still capitalize on an opening given to you from your opponent.


thenovalord wrote:

Attacks of Opportunity

Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down

.....its odd you have let your guard down due to doing something that is causing you to not be 100% on the ball, except you are sharp enough to take a free swing if something else does the same??

There's nothing strange about that. If you run pass a foe and that foe tries to bear hug you instead of slashing you in the back from a safe distance, it's logical that you would have the time to turn around and react to his clumsy grapple attempt by cutting off his hand.


Nicos wrote:
Ragnarok Aeon wrote:
So theoretically the person bull rushing could disarm the person trying to trip him. And thus one could counter a counter with a counter?
Only if you have combat expertise or a similar ability.

What does Combat Expertise have to do with it?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

He probably means Combat Reflexes.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
He probably means Combat Reflexes.

Combat Reflexes doesn't make sense either. The person bull rushing is clearly not flat-footed and has not made any other attacks of opportunity this round.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Making multiple attacks of opportunity can only be done with Combat Reflexes.

The "counter a counter with counter" is a reference to multiple attacks of opportunity.


Combat reflexes lets you make extra AoO beyond one per round.

Edit: I see in te example only one AoO would be needed


Combat Reflexes gives you your Dex mod in extra allowed AoOs per round.

EDIT: ninja'd


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Making multiple attacks of opportunity can only be done with Combat Reflexes.

The "counter a counter with counter" is a reference to multiple attacks of opportunity.

CloakedInSmoke wrote:

Combat Reflexes gives you your Dex mod in extra allowed AoOs per round.

EDIT: ninja'd

The bull-rusher hasn't made any AoOs yet, though. The situation described is:

It's A's turn.
A bull-rushes.
B gets an AoO on A, and tries to trip.
A gets an AoO on B, and tries to disarm.

A doesn't need Combat Reflexes because A hasn't taken any other attacks of opportunity.


Roberta Yang wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Making multiple attacks of opportunity can only be done with Combat Reflexes.

The "counter a counter with counter" is a reference to multiple attacks of opportunity.

CloakedInSmoke wrote:

Combat Reflexes gives you your Dex mod in extra allowed AoOs per round.

EDIT: ninja'd

The bull-rusher hasn't made any AoOs yet, though. The situation described is:

It's A's turn.
A bull-rushes.
B gets an AoO on A, and tries to trip.
A gets an AoO on B, and tries to disarm.

A doesn't need Combat Reflexes because A hasn't taken any other attacks of opportunity.

But if B gets another AoO from A because A tries to disarm without having the Improved Disarm feat, B would need Combat Reflexes to take this second AoO.


Maerimydra wrote:
But if B gets another AoO from A because A tries to disarm without having the Improved Disarm feat, B would need Combat Reflexes to take this second AoO.

Yes, B would need Combat Reflexes to make an AoO in response to the disarm, but that wasn't part of the scenario presented. Read it again:

Ragnarok Aeon wrote:
So theoretically the person bull rushing could disarm the person trying to trip him. And thus one could counter a counter with a counter?

It only goes as far as A attacks, B counters, A counter-counters.


I know I know, I was just saying that Combat Reflexes could be useful if this chain of AoOs was expanded even more. ;)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Two Weapon Finesser's in a duel.

Neither has Improved Disarm, then find out that there's a rule for their duel that it's supposed to be nonlethal, only trying to disarm your opponent.

Both duelists have Combat Reflexes.

First guy attempts a disarm.
Before it resolves, second guy attempts a disarm as an AoO.
Before it resolves, first guy attempts a disarm as an AoO.
Repeat four times.
Resolve the AoOs in reverse order until one succeeds.

*clang-ting-clang-clang-swish-clatter*
Done! In less than six seconds. ;)

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