well, seeing as how I'm doing my whole 'exploration into alchemists' thing, I came up with a few questions that I kinda wanted to know the answers to...
1) If an alchemist uses polymorph extracts (such as Monstrous Physique, Giant Form, etc) can he still drink his 'feral mutagen' and grow claws and a bite attack?
2) When using said polymorph extracts, does he maintain his ability to use his original feats (such as improved unarmed strike)?
From what I understand, if an alchemist drinks his 'feral mutagen' BEFORE he uses the polymorph spell, he basically loses his bite and claws due to the whole 'losing all natural attacks' clause stated in the polymorph description. However, it seems to be completely feasible that he can drink his mutagen 'after' he uses the polymorph spell, and thus gain the benefits.
Thoughts please?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Since they effects of the mutagen are tied to the physical form, they are not carried over to a new form via polymorph. They will work if you use the polymorph effect first though. (Jason Bulmahn has confirmed this). The good news is most good Monstrous humanoid/ giant form shapes have lots of natural attacks anyhow. Even hill giants have slam and they are hardly the best forms for these spells.
You don't lose access to feats when polymorphed so IUS is fine.
Oh, and one more thing, I've found an error on the Pathfinder SRD website regarding 'Transformation' (the 6th level extract for alchemists). Apparently the spell is not included on the Alchemist formula list (not sure why). I was curious to know if this spell has been altered to be excluded from the list entirely.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It's on both the spell list index page and the alchemists page. Are you talking about d20PFSRD? I'm not sure where the best place to report issues with that is, isn't there a link on the site for reporting problems?
Since they effects of the mutagen are tied to the physical form, they are not carried over to a new form via polymorph. They will work if you use the polymorph effect first though. (Jason Bulmahn has confirmed this).
Why should the order matter? Either your form supports having claws and a bite or it does not.
wow...nevermind. went back to the SRD and the problem is now fixed :).
but yea, in regards to feral mutagen and 'monstrous physique', I wish the order didn't matter, but it does. According to the rules of polymorph, your original form loses ALL natural attacks that it possessed :(
Therefore, if you have feral mutagen active...well, it doesn't carry over after you polymorph (but it can work before you do).
Also, not trying to get too off topic or anything, but does anyone know if feats such as 'multiattack' and 'arcane strike' can be taken by an alchemist?
I guess the reason I ask is because multiattack requires 3 natural attacks, which is something that the alchemist doesn't always have (unless in feral mutagen form). Arcane Strike has come up in other debates as well, but I haven't gotten a good answer about that one yet either.
but yea, in regards to feral mutagen and 'monstrous physique', I wish the order didn't matter, but it does. According to the rules of polymorph, your original form loses ALL natural attacks that it possessed :(Therefore, if you have feral mutagen active...well, it doesn't carry over after you polymorph (but it can work before you do).
But the claws and bite are NOT natural attacks of your natural form! They're effects of the mutagen. The mutagen that's still active. Why would it not transfer any more than drinking the mutagen while polymorphed, turning back to natural form, and retaining the claws/bite? They're very much not part of your natural form.
This makes no sense at all.
If an alchemist takes improved unarmed strike with two-weapon fighting and continues with that progression (getting the extra attacks, double slice, etc), then he will gain a total of 6 unarmed strikes.
When combined with the natural attacks from feral mutagen and the tentacle discovery, you now have a grand total of 4 secondary natural attacks.
10 attacks on a full round with sneak attack...I'd say that's worth making ur natural attacks secondary :P
*sigh* but yea, I hate that arcane strike doesn't work with alchemist :( one would think that it could though.
Of course, I suppose I could always spend two feats and get Racial Heritage (kobold) and get 'Tail Terror' for a tail attack (knocking my attacks up to 11).
I do have a question about doing that of course- would the damage of a human's 'tail attack' change due to him being a medium creature? I know that tail terror is designed for a kobold, which is a small creature, but does that mean the damage is increased for a human?
It was a lot easier to get natural attacks in 3E. If you have access to that material, you can really get some nice spiky bits. Girallon's Blessing spell for 2 extra limbs and claws on all 4 of your arms for 10 min / CL, feats for tentacles, a prestige class that lets you just plain grow an extra nat weapon of your choice, horned helm to get a gore attack, some sort of fang mask for a bite...
I had a friend w/ a succubus once; by level 13-14 I think it had over a dozen natural attacks. He went for a natural attack abomination and grappler, his other friend made a pimped out cha-based caster succubus... Good times.
not sure why...in one instance u have 3 natural primary attacks that basically use full BAB at full Strength.
when using two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes (especially with alchemist), you get an additional 6 attacks using full strength.
keep in mind that u can use other madness to increase your unarmed strike power as well. For instance...
Monk's Robe + Animal Aspect + Enlarge Person.
Monk's Robe knocks your unarmed strike damage up to 1d8 (5th level monk damage). Then, u add Enlarge Person, making it 2d6. Throw in Animal Aspect (which is a polymorph spell, but surprisingly doesn't affect your gear and such) and choose gorilla, giving you 3d6 for each unarmed strike.
Thorn body is also another good extract for alchemist, giving unarmed strikes an additional 1d6 in damage.
And finally, if you do the whole 'Alchemical Allocation' with Greater Magic Fang for your unarmed strikes...well...
yea....just pure madness :)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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but yea, in regards to feral mutagen and 'monstrous physique', I wish the order didn't matter, but it does. According to the rules of polymorph, your original form loses ALL natural attacks that it possessed :(Therefore, if you have feral mutagen active...well, it doesn't carry over after you polymorph (but it can work before you do).
But the claws and bite are NOT natural attacks of your natural form! They're effects of the mutagen. The mutagen that's still active. Why would it not transfer any more than drinking the mutagen while polymorphed, turning back to natural form, and retaining the claws/bite? They're very much not part of your natural form.
This makes no sense at all.
The Mutagen changes your physical form... the polymorph effect changes your physical form. The only thing that's marginally surprising about it is that some of the effects of the Mutagen DO carry over.
It doesn't matter too much anyhow, most good polymorph shapes have good natural attacks regardless.
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No, once you use a manufactured weapon(including unarmed strike) your natural attacks all become secondary, so they are at -5 and add only half strength.
Double Slice will not apply to secondary natural attacks, and the bonus from Power Attack will be lessened.
The only reason to get Improved Unarmed Strike, is to get Feral Combat Training.
i understand that ur primary attacks become secondary (never said that they didn't). I'm just pointing out the basic math:
3 natural attack at full BAB with full strength < 6 unarmed strikes that each have full strength + 3 natural attacks with -5 penalty and half strength
effectively, that penalty only drops to a -2 with multiattack, so really there's only a few small differences.
so at the cost of a small penalty, and reducing 3 of ur attacks to half strength rather than full, you are gaining 6 extra attacks (all with huge damage) that all use ur full strength.
For a vivisectionist who uses sneak attack, extra attacks can often mean more sneak attack damage.
In this case, Feral Combat Training isn't really necessary.
perhaps, but when one considers how all my 'natural attacks' are only going to be made at a -2 penalty, I'm not really sure if that qualifies as a 'whirlwind' of misses. it 'might' apply to my unarmed strikes, but when one considers how easy it is to get an 'everlasting greater magic fang', it's not that much of an issue.
meh, I wouldn't see why not...
besides, combining unarmed strikes with natural attacks makes amulet of might fists WAY more effective (especially since the benefits will apply to ALL your attacks).
I know this will stir up a hornet's nest, but it's not entirely sure if you can two weapon fight with unarmed strikes only.
There's already a thread for that particular topic, so let's not go into it here.
But...SKR himself claims the reason AoMF is good for monks is because in order to flurry (ie, TWF) with his unarmed strikes, he needs at least 2 different "weapons" enhanced.
If it isn't entirely sure, what possible basis does his claim even hold?
How could such a massive rules paradox exist in such a flawlessly designed game as pathfinder?
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As I said, let's take that conversation to another thread, as not derail this one.
Here is one you can go to.