It's not "no penalties" you just tally up your penalties separately. You've got negative five to all your natural attacks, and -4/-8 (assuming light weapon in off-hand) for your manufactured weapon attacks.
It does lead to some cheese when you can negate the penalties to a 5 hit attack routine to -2 for all attacks by level 3, but I think this is one of those issues where the designer and editor just assumed the kenku's claws would be on his hands by default, preventing this overlap.
Sure, maybe I should have said 'the only penalty is all NW's are 2ndary'.
But with a (pretty obvious) feat: multi-attack, it really is a no-brainer,and you should of course be taking the 2WF feat if you plan on using 2WF'ing, so those are only -2.
Talons may indeed default to foot-mounted (although i believe there are also wing talons...?),
although i'm also pretty sure that there ARE example of claws that can be on your feet...
But it doesn't make a difference for this combo whether the claws are on your hands or feet,
because UAS can be your hands, feet, or head-butt (per core rules for UAS in Combat chapter, not just Monks).
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uh... no, the rules are:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.You only have 2WF penalties on your iteratives if you choose to 2WF, otherwise your iteratives have NO penalties. Your naturals are all 'as secondary', but if you take multiattack that is only -2, no 2WF penalties apply to them.
talons may indeed default to foot-mounted (although i believe there are also wing talons...?),
although i'm also pretty sure that there are example of claws that can be on your feet...regardless, as already mentioned up thread, it doesn't really matter for this purpose,
since UAS (per the vanilla Combat chapter description of it) can be 'punches, kicks, and head butts'.
it's arguable that only monks can use OTHER body parts beyond those, but not really clear-cut
(and that doesn't matter for this purpose unless one has 4 claws/talons and/or Gore)
Right, but you aren't using Unarmed Strike, you just qualify for feats and abilities as though you had it from the racial trait. It doesn't give you carte blanche to make claw attacks with your forehead. In fact, it doesn't allow you to make unarmed strikes at all.
"Claw Attack- Tengus with this racial trait have learned to use their claws as natural weapons. They gain two claw attacks as primary natural attacks that deal 1d3 points of damage, and are treated as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purpose of qualifying for other feats. This racial trait replaces swordtrained."I think on the penalties issue, we had the same understanding of the rule but a different understanding of what we were each trying to say. I was referring specifically to the subject in question, which involved fighting with manufactured weapons and natural attacks.
things like this combo makes me think paizo should have gone more with the pre-Errata'd Core Rules functionality for iteratives+naturals (adding the 2WF penalty to all attacks), rather than the Bestiary (no penalties). or modified the core rules version to be slightly less harsh, but not as 'nice' as the bestiary version.
Because the single most unbalanced thing about D&D 3E was how much melee characters rocked the house, amirite?
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Design Manager
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things like this combo makes me think paizo should have gone more with the pre-Errata'd Core Rules functionality for iteratives+naturals (adding the 2WF penalty to all attacks), rather than the Bestiary (no penalties). or modified the core rules version to be slightly less harsh, but not as 'nice' as the bestiary version.Because the single most unbalanced thing about D&D 3E was how much melee characters rocked the house, amirite?
Hoho!! It's funny because they didn't! Haha!
yeah, I edited my post above to reflect that, re: the Iterative+NatWeapons rule.
I do think the rule for that could be more penalizing exactly for cases like this.
I'm not talking about making Claw attacks with your forehead, I'm talking about making UAS attacks with your hands/feet/fore-head. If you are 2WF'ig and using Sneak Attack you are hardly as reliant on weapon stats for damage. As already mentioned up-thread, you don't need Improved UAS to make UAS attacks, although you certainly can take that Feat (or get it free somehow) and use your Improved UAS w/ 2WF w/ your Bite and Claws, which is still very few feats for a s@%$load of attacks at only -2 (and you don't need to use 2WF if you don't want to).
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yeah, I edited my post above to reflect that, re: the Iterative+NatWeapons rule.
I do think the rule for that could be more penalizing exactly for cases like this.I'm not talking about making Claw attacks with your forehead, I'm talking about making UAS attacks with your hands/feet/fore-head. If you are 2WF'ig and using Sneak Attack you are hardly as reliant on weapon stats for damage. As already mentioned up-thread, you don't need Improved UAS to make UAS attacks, although you certainly can take that Feat (or get it free somehow) and use your Improved UAS w/ 2WF w/ your Bite and Claws, which is still very few feats for a s+!!load of attacks at only -2 (and you don't need to use 2WF if you don't want to).
Ah, yes, that is true. A tengu could easily make Unarmed attacks with his feet while using his claw attacks with his hands and making his bite attack.
Because the single most unbalanced thing about D&D 3E was how much melee characters rocked the house, amirite?
uhhh, no... when did this thread turn to the topic of melee characters in general?
but i'd rather not have multi-NatWpn characters have so many more low penalty attacks than every other melee-ist.tengus having crazy tons of attacks doesn't do anything to help the 99.9% of other melee characters.
you might have liked my beta playtest ideas about putting caster action economy back on par with mundane action economy though.
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Design Manager
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Most natural weapon fighters start out with an edge over standard fighters. For the martial natural weapon fighters, this edge starts to decrease over levels due to the difficulties in enhancing natural weapons, the feat requirements to negate the 1/2 damage you're doing with all your attacks, etc. However, the Tengu does get a specific edge over other Rogues with this combo, since the Rogue class doesn't usually sweat much over stat to damage and large weapon die, but benefits from being able to land as many SA enhanced attacks as possible.
Most natural weapon fighters start out with an edge over standard fighters. For the martial natural weapon fighters, this edge starts to decrease over levels due to the difficulties in enhancing natural weapons, the feat requirements to negate the 1/2 damage you're doing with all your attacks, etc. However, the Tengu does get a specific edge over other Rogues with this combo, since the Rogue class doesn't usually sweat much over stat to damage and large weapon die, but benefits from being able to land as many SA enhanced attacks as possible.
The 1/2 damage is only for the natural attacks, so unless DR is totally negating the natural attacks somehow, it's always going to be a benefit that doesn't negatively impact the iterative side of things. That Tengus can get 3 natural attacks is just extra inappropriate given it's a 'standard PC race' is all.
I might make a Tengu Rogue/Duelist with
the Crane Wing Feat Chain and a Cestus just to really mess with my GM.... And blatantly take advantage of the RAW.
well cestus does use hands, as do fist wraps, so (given the Claws=Hands/Forearms thing) you may need to use kicks (and thus Imp UAS to not provoke), but it's hardly some far out combination, tengus aren't less able to UAS than anybody else, right?
I say go for it, it's Paizo's fault for putting so many Nat Attacks in a standard PC race.EDIT: the Foot/Leg equivalent for Cestus would seem to be the Blade Boot, although that creates problems with mobilty if you don't Fly. Is there PFS-legit 'Spiked Boot' equivalent to Spiked Gauntlet, or even just a 'Heavy Boot' equivalent to non-spiked Gauntlet?
Tengu are birds, birds have talons. talons are on the feet. using the talons denies you foot slot items that aren't custom made.
OK, and if talons are on the feet, tengus can use whatever weapon they want to in their hands. woo-hoo.
the actual ability of course says claws, NOT talons.
whatever the difference, the same # of attacks is trivially possible.
Tengu are birds, birds have talons. talons are on the feet. using the talons denies you foot slot items that aren't custom made.
Most worn magic items transform to fit the wearer. If a ring could fit a halfling AND a giant, a boot can fit a human, a tengu, or a cloven tiefling.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Has anyone mentioned the Maneuver Master yet? One-level dip gets you Improved Dirty Trick and the ability to add it to your full-attack routine (even though for anyone else it's a standard action) without even replacing one of your normal attacks.
One of the effects of Dirty Trick is to blind the target.
Blinded targets are eligible for sneak attack.
So if your multi-attacking ninja tengu guy can't get a flank, a level of Maneuver Master lets him tack on a freebie Dirty Trick at the beginning of his full-attack. If successful, the rest of the attacks (which suffer no penalties for doing this, mind you) have a better time hitting and will deal sneak attack damage.
Tengu are birds, birds have talons. talons are on the feet. using the talons denies you foot slot items that aren't custom made.Agreed. Soooo, Tengu can't weild anything in their "hands" then?
That would make it quite difficult for their entire race to be "swordtrained" then, wouldn't you think?
