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With 'normal' two weapon fighting with a one-handed weapon as primary and a light weapon as the off-hand, we all know how STR bonus to damage and power attack applies.Let's take a 'abnormal' situation:
A monk (or character with IUS) elects to TWF with an unarmed strike as primary and a two-handed weapon as their 'off-hand' weapon.
What's the bonus to damage from STR and power attack for this two-handed weapon?
Does the bonus/penalty on power attack cancel out, or does 'off-hand' trump 'two-handed' weapon?
Certainly if the character switched the two-handed weapon to 'primary' and the unarmed strike to 'off-hand' then you're looking at 1.5x & +3/-1 on the primary even though that's not the 'normal' two weapon fighting that one assumes.
-James
1) Only the monk gets the ability to use any appendage for unarmed strikes, not anyone with IUS, IIRC.
2) The 2-handed weapon would deal 1/2 str damage etc. because damage is based on wielding (mechanically), not how big it is. A longsword in the off-hand is just as big as in the main-hand, and still held in one hand, but only does 1/2 str damage. Similarly, the same longsword in 2 hands does 1.5 x str damage. If you use a 2-hander for an off-hand attack, it gets the same benefit as an off-hand attack (1/2 str damage, -1/+1 PA). The advantage then is that it has an increased base damage die.
You are better off (mechanically) main-handing the 2-hander and using your unarmed strikes for off-hand attacks.
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Anyone can kick or headbutt. Punch is not the only option for non-monks.
My inclination otherwise (by rules only) is based on this:
Monk Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Improved Unarmed Strike (feat): You are skilled at fighting while unarmed.
Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack foes while unarmed. Your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your choice.
Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack.
This seems to suggest that striking with limbs other than the hands is something specific to a monk's version of unarmed strike. It is mentioned in the monk's entry but not in the feat's. If you know of a rule somewhere else that specifies otherwise please reference it.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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You mean like here?
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
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You mean like here?
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Exactly, thank you. I suppose the wording in the monk entry is for clarification, since monk characters are the most likely to use unarmed strikes.
EDIT: Just wondering, does anyone feel differently from what I posted with regards to the OP's question? To sum up:
Unarmed main hand (1x str, -1/+2 PA), 2-hand off-hand (0.5x str, -1/+1 PA)
2-hand main hand (1.5x str, -1/+3 PA), unarmed off-hand [monk] (1x str, -1/+2 PA)
2-hand main hand (1.5x str, -1/+3 PA), unarmed off-hand [non-monk] (0.5x str, -1/+1 PA)
only thing I'm not sure of is if the monk unarmed strike gives -1/+2 PA in addition to 1x str or only -1/+1.
only thing I'm not sure of is if the monk unarmed strike gives -1/+2 PA in addition to 1x str or only -1/+1.
(Monk) Unarmed Strike: "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes."
If the first sentence doesn't apply for some reason, and you actually can make an off-hand attack with a Monk Unarmed Strike, why would the second sentence, which is dependent on the first, (via "thus") apply?
Meaning, the reason you get full strength is because there's no off-hand MUS. If you ignore that and allow a MUS to be used for an off-hand attack, you should ignore the whole thing and give it half strength and 50% Power Attack.
Hm.
I think that by RAW the two-handed weapon will only apply half strength bonus.
The reason I think that is that Two-Handed Weapons dealing 1-1/2 their Strength mod is a general rule and the Off-Hand Weapon dealing 1/2 Str bonus only comes into play when you are using a more specific rule, two-weapon fighting.
I'm not sure what the intent is though, and have a hunch that this scenario didn't cross the mind of whoever wrote those sections.
The reason I think that is that Two-Handed Weapons dealing 1-1/2 their Strength mod is a general rule and the Off-Hand Weapon dealing 1/2 Str bonus only comes into play when you are using a more specific rule, two-weapon fighting.
The problem is it's not covered under TWF. Both rules are under Damage.
"Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies."
"Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands."
They're contradictory, and I don't see any clear indication of which one should take precedence.
Though, since you're (basically) always wielding it two-handed, but only in your off-hand when TWF, I guess that makes TWF (and thus, the translation into an off-hand) the more specific rule.
Grick, that's the reason I explained why I thought that. I did notice they were in the same place, but you still must use a more specific rule to even be able to use that text.
Still voting for "didn't cross the minds of devs" until I find something otherwise :)
Grick, that's the reason I explained why I thought that.
I was agreeing with you, I just had to write out explicitly why the TWF rule is more specific in order for it to make sense to me.
The way I see the intent is that a person is stronger with their dominant hand, thus 1/2 for their non dominant hand, and two hands confer the original x1str for main hand and adds the 1/2 from your off hand's strength swinging the weapon.
I would rule that if a weapon is being wielded in two hands (say, a temple sword) it gets 1.5xstr and then the kick or headbut gets str.
adding power attack in seems a little broken, but the world makes more sense to me this way. And its no more broken then the twohanded fighter archetype.
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The way I see the intent is that a person is stronger with their dominant hand, thus 1/2 for their non dominant hand, and two hands confer the original x1str for main hand and adds the 1/2 from your off hand's strength swinging the weapon.
I would rule that if a weapon is being wielded in two hands (say, a temple sword) it gets 1.5xstr and then the kick or headbut gets str.adding power attack in seems a little broken, but the world makes more sense to me this way. And its no more broken then the twohanded fighter archetype.
So looking into how broken this could be, I came up with the following:
master of many styles (monk) 2, two-handed fighter 18
20 pt buy
str 20 (+)
dex 18
con 14
int 7
wis 7
cha 7
important feats (and prereqs):
monk: dragon style, dragon ferocity
fighter/other: two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting, power attack, scorpion style, gorgon's fist, medusa's wrath, critical focus, staggering critical, double slice, two-weapon rend
what I'm seeing is that in a full attack:
1st attack: falchion 1.5x str, -1/+4 PA
iteratives(x3): falchion 2x str, -1/+4 PA
off-hands(x2): unarmed 2.5x str, -1/+2 PA
If a main hand and an off-hand hit: rend 1.5x str
If an attack crits, 2 more unarmed attacks are made.
Please tell me how this doesn't work; it seems too broken. I don't think 2-handing and dual wielding were intended to interact.
off-hands(x2): unarmed 2.5x str, -1/+2 PA
How are you getting 2.5x str on the unarmed strikes?
The first unarmed strike should get 1.5xStr and a bonus .5xStr (from Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity), and the second unarmed strike should get 1xStr and bonus .5xStr (from Double Slice and Dragon Ferocity).
Double Slice and Dragon Style don't stack, for the same reasons Overhand Chop and Backswing only grant a total of 2xStr not 2xStr plus the normal 1.5xStr.
And why are they getting full power attack? I don't see anything in the list there that changes the reduced power attack damage for off-hand attacks.
because the monk does not have any off hand attacks. they are all considered main hand.
continuing to use my "it just seems right" logic, I wouldn't let the monk rend with a falchion and his foot.
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off-hands(x2): unarmed 2.5x str, -1/+2 PAHow are you getting 2.5x str on the unarmed strikes?
The first unarmed strike should get 1.5xStr and a bonus .5xStr (from Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity), and the second unarmed strike should get 1xStr and bonus .5xStr (from Double Slice and Dragon Ferocity).
Double Slice and Dragon Style don't stack, for the same reasons Overhand Chop and Backswing only grant a total of 2xStr not 2xStr plus the normal 1.5xStr.
And why are they getting full power attack? I don't see anything in the list there that changes the reduced power attack damage for off-hand attacks.
Benefit: While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus. When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus."
These two put together. You are making a full-attack with a two-handed weapon, and your unarmed attacks are attack rolls after the first. Then you get a bonus equal to half your strength bonus to unarmed strike damage rolls. Also you get elemental fist for some reason from dragon ferocity, so lets just add that in too.
"A monk with this feat can use Elemental Fist as if he were a monk of the four winds."
Yes, the full PA bonus is from the MUS:
"There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes."
Double slice is simply a prereq for two-weapon rend, and is otherwise useless.
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because the monk does not have any off hand attacks. they are all considered main hand.
continuing to use my "it just seems right" logic, I wouldn't let the monk rend with a falchion and his foot.
I never said any of this seemed right, which is basically the point of making this build. It's very silly.
Monks IUS have no offhand so he applied normal PA damage.
Even if you're selectively ignoring the inability to have an off-hand, what makes the MUS rule (which is always in effect) take precedence over the TWF rule, which is only in effect while TWFing, and is thus more specific?
If the MUSs are not off-hands, double slice and two-weapon rend do nothing.
Even if the non-existent off-hand that is making off-hand attacks is considered a main hand for some reason, that doesn't explain the extra .5x and 1x strength bonuses, unless you're inexplicably declaring each MUS to be a two-handed weapon.
You are making a full-attack with a two-handed weapon, and your unarmed attacks are attack rolls after the first.
Ah. Well if you're applying Backswing to non-two-handed weapons, why not apply it to the rend as well?
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At least for power attack as both are listed as bonus/penalty.. why wouldn't a two-handed weapon making an off-hand attack apply both?
-James
I'm not sure I understand your question, but it might be cleared up by noting that the (silly) build uses the 2-hander for primary attacks only, and all off-hand attacks are made with unarmed strikes.
As pointed out, in order for them to be off-hand attacks, the MUS might have to be overwritten, so that the unarmed PA bonus is only +1. I still haven't seen a reason they aren't 2.5x str though. Backswing 2x + dragon ferocity +0.5x = 2.5x
That clause doesn't mean you get to use the Elemental Fist feat without having it. If you're not MotFW, you can use Elemental Fist once per day per 4 levels. If you are a MotFW (or have Dragon Ferocity), you can use it once per day per Monk level plus once more per 4 non-Monk levels. But you still need to take the feat (using a feat slot) before you can use it; you get to ignore the prereqs, but until you meet them you're stuck with a single elemental type.Also you get elemental fist for some reason from dragon ferocity, so lets just add that in too.
"A monk with this feat can use Elemental Fist as if he were a monk of the four winds."
Good catch. Maybe have to pick it up, though it's not that impressive, and stunning fist can proc medusa's wrath.
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"Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon."
Reading the feat more carefully, I think by RAW you're right. The PA modifier is -1/+2. Probably not what's intended, though I don't think using 2-handers for off-hand attacks was ever intended either.
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Wouldn't it interact like this:
PA with two handed weapon x 1.5 but it is offhand so x 0.5 so it is x 0.75 but since we round down you only get -1/+1.
Or is this the case where it is doubling a double rule, where you take x (1.5 = -0.5) and end up at x 1 damage for PA.
BAB1: 2 * 1.5 = 3, 3 * 0.5 = 1.5, round down to 1
BAB4: 4 * 1.5 = 6, 6 * 0.5 = 3, bonus stays 3BAB8: 6 * 1.5 = 9, 9 * 0.5 = 4.5, round down to 4
BAB12: 8 * 1.5 = 12, 12 * 0.5 = 6, bonus stays 6
Is this what you're suggesting? It's odd but may be correct. I think all multipliers are added together rather than multiplied (doubling a double rule). This means 0.5 - 0.5 = 0, so normal power attack bonus.
note: I personally think it should be -1/+1 as with any other off-hand attack, but this is rules forum and opinions have no place here.