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TWF and Offensive defense rogue talent?


Rules Questions


so my friend is building a TWF catfalk rogue <all claw stuff> and wanted to take offensive defense, but did some looking and got all confused

Offensive Defense** (Ex): When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled for 1 round.

then he read :

Rogue: Does the dodge bonus from the “offensive defensive” rogue talent (page 131) stack with itself? Does it apply to everyone, or just to the target I’m attacking?
There are two issues relating to this rogue talent.
One, in the first printing it provided a +1 circumstance bonus against the attacked target, which was a very weak ability. The second printing update changed it from a circumstance bonus to a dodge bonus, but accidentally omitted the “against that creature” text, which made it a very strong ability.
Two, it doesn’t specify whether the dodge bonus stacks with itself, and because this creates a strange place in the rules where bonuses don’t stack from the same source but dodge bonuses always stack. While we haven’t reached a final decision on what to do about this talent, we are leaning toward this solution: the dodge bonus only applies against the creature you sneak attacked, and the dodge bonus does not stack with itself. This prevents you from getting a dodge bonus to AC against a strong creature by sneak attacking a weak creature, and prevents you from reaching an absurdly high AC by sneak attacking multiple times in the same round.
—Sean K Reynolds, 03/01/12

he says he assumes this is for single atk but what about TWF with it ?


The RAW text includes all the Sneak Attack Dice he rolled in a single round.

So if he has a Longsword and Shortsword, deals 3d6 Sneak, and hit with each of these weapons once against a single opponent (or one attack on two diffferent opponents), he gains +1 for each dice rolled during that round.

Since he hit twice, each dealing 3D6 Sneak, You take the amount of times you hit (2) times the amount of dice you use for sneak attack (3).

3 X 2 = 6; that's the amount of bonus he gets for Dodge AC in that round.


k thx you


As Darksol stated, they apply to all opponents. As for stacking this should fall under the rule regarding same effect from same source not stacking. IE: it should only occur once.

The FAQ on this states they are discussing this still but they are strongly leaning towards confirming that you can only benefit once (ie no stacking with itself) and they are debating whether or not it applies to the target attacked or all opponents.

- Gauss

Edit:

FAQ wrote:

Rogue: Does the dodge bonus from the “offensive defensive” rogue talent (page 131) stack with itself? Does it apply to everyone, or just to the target I’m attacking?

There are two issues relating to this rogue talent.

One, in the first printing it provided a +1 circumstance bonus against the attacked target, which was a very weak ability. The second printing update changed it from a circumstance bonus to a dodge bonus, but accidentally omitted the “against that creature” text, which made it a very strong ability.

Two, it doesn’t specify whether the dodge bonus stacks with itself, and because this creates a strange place in the rules where bonuses don’t stack from the same source but dodge bonuses always stack. While we haven’t reached a final decision on what to do about this talent, we are leaning toward this solution: the dodge bonus only applies against the creature you sneak attacked, and the dodge bonus does not stack with itself. This prevents you from getting a dodge bonus to AC against a strong creature by sneak attacking a weak creature, and prevents you from reaching an absurdly high AC by sneak attacking multiple times in the same round.

Star Voter 2013

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Not quite.

Firstly, dodge bonuses stack. Second, the "for one round" is talking about the DURATION of the dodge bonus, NOT the period of time over wich you count up the sneak attack die. now it just so happens that it almost works out that way.

Let's say this TWF rogue is sneak attacking something, but one of his weapons adds a die of sneak attack over and above the two dice of sneak attack the rogue gets for his level. Let's say it's a longsword and s magic dagger of stabbity-stab.

If he hits with the longsword, he gets his 2D sneak attack.
If he hits with the dagger, he gets 2D+1D (total 3D) sneak attack.

In the first case he gets +2 dodge bonus to AC for one round.
In the second case he gets a +3 dodge bonus to AC for one round.

If BOTH hit ... well dodge bonuses DO stack, so ... unless it's considered "same source" then yeah, you get +5 dodge to AC. I'm gonna hit the FAQ button.

EDIT: blasted ninjas


Gauss wrote:

As Darksol stated, they apply to all opponents. As for stacking this should fall under the rule regarding same effect from same source not stacking. IE: it should only occur once.

The FAQ on this states they are discussing this still but they are strongly leaning towards confirming that you can only benefit once (ie no stacking with itself) and they are debating whether or not it applies to the target attacked or all opponents.

- Gauss

While it is quite arguable, in its current stance (and if they do not change its bonus type), a Dodge Bonus stacks with all bonuses including itself, meaning that unless changed to another bonus which does not confer this meaning, it would stack anyway.

However, I would have to agree with them that it would have to only affect the creature(s) that they dealt Sneak Attack damage to.


There are two criteria:

Do bonuses stack with themselves: Answer is usually no but with Dodge yes.
Do bonuses from the same source stack with themselves? Answer is pretty much never.

You can have a dodge bonus from multiple sources stacking. You should not be able to have a dodge bonus from the same source stacking.

Anyhow, my group goes with the way they lean in the FAQ but since it is not RAW yet it is still an open and debatable question.

Unfortunately the FAQ is over 6months old. I hope they have not forgotten about it.

- Gauss


Well, you are right to a point. Here's the issue though...

With my above example with getting a +6 to Dodge AC with those successful hits, the +6 is a set bonus granted from that single Full Attack Option. If the PC had 2 Full Attack Options, then only the higher would provide the Dodge AC, but such a case isn't provided here.

The real question is what would constitute as "stacking from the same source"? Would it be based off of how much Sneak Attack Dice they use in a single Full Attack Option, would it be based off of each individual attack? Would AOO's be included in this equation?

My ruling would be that a character using this talent would get all the bonuses from Sneak Attack from a Full or Regular Attack Option against that target, but any bonuses from AOO's would not stack (since it is derived from a separate function triggering the same bonus), and only the highest is given.

Star Voter 2013

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Each single attack while using the feat is a source. AoO or not doesn't matter. Either they stack or they do not.

If it is ruled that they don't stack, then you'll get a bonus based on the biggest one, if for some odd reason they get differing amounts. For example, if you did a full attack from invisibility, only the first attack would get sneak attack dice added.

How would you ever get two full attack actions in the same round ? The bonus only lasts one round.

Turn 1: Rogue attacks. Rogue now has bonus to AC that lasts the rest of the round.

Turn 2: Rogue's bonus from turn one expires. If the rogue does not sneak attack again this round, he has no bonus.

Shadow Lodge

SlimGauge wrote:

For example, if you did a full attack from invisibility, only the first attack would get sneak attack dice added.

HUH ? this makes no sense ... if the attacker is invisible then the target is flat footed for the duration of the attacks that's how its always been and I can find nothing that says otherwise

either way I have a build I'm working on and very quickly I see the abuse ... and absurd isn't the word Id use ... heck I don't know what word Id use

dodge bonus calculated by attack seems fair to me (3d6 sneak = + 3 dodge not +3*number of attacks)and making it against the creature that got sneak attacked seems fair as well


Wraith235 wrote:
SlimGauge wrote:

For example, if you did a full attack from invisibility, only the first attack would get sneak attack dice added.

HUH ? this makes no sense ... if the attacker is invisible then the target is flat footed for the duration of the attacks

If they were flat-footed anyway, then invisibility doesn't matter. Assuming you mean denied dex, then:

Invisibility: "The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature."

As soon as you make your first attack, the spell ends. Since the spell has ended, you're no longer invisible. Since you're not invisible, you no longer ignore your opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC.

You stab a guy. He sees you. You try to stab him again, but since he can see you, he can try to move out of the way (dex to AC) which means no sneak attack unless you otherwise qualify for it (flanking, etc.).

Shadow Lodge

I stand corrected
I just found it .. (Obscure location)

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