Does the Divination Wizard school create a surprise round if there wasn't already one?

[Rycaut]

Specifically the school power Forwarned:

Quote:

You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.

I always read this as only taking effect IF there was already a surprise round happening at the beginning of combat - which since this only rarely happens in most games I played made this a nice but not overwhelmingly powerful school ability. Though the initiative bonus was of course also fairly nice.

But recently in another thread I read someone's post where they implied that in their games Divination school wizards ALWAYS acted in a surprise round before every combat - even if they were the only person acting in that surprise round (i.e. at their table this was ruled as implying the creation of a surprise round where the divination school wizard would act). Which combined with the initiative bonus and divination school spells like True Strike suddenly becomes a lot more powerful (and explains why so many people perhaps were recommending Divination and specifically Foresight for wizards or characters dipping wizard)

So how do people interpret this at their tables? And is there a solid RAW answer? Specifically for PFS play where I do most of my playing (and GMing).

[Shar Tahl]

There is not always a surprise round. If the surprise round exists, then the wizard can act. There is not a surprise round by default. Getting a surprise round every combat would be the Epic Stealthy Improved Initiative feat

PRD wrote:

Surprise

When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.

Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

[Michael Sayre]

I think the normal triggers for a surprise round still have to be met for this to occur:

Surprise Round:

Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.

Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

The initiative bonus is already a solid buff from this ability, a free round of combat in every combat is more than a little over-the-top.

[Rycaut]

I agree - but the post in the other thread implied that this was indeed how they played - it wasn't noted as something unusual just as how they expected Divination school wizards to play out in combat - as always acting in a "surprise" round that happened before every single combat.

While in most PFS games I have played surprise rounds are very unusual - most of the time combat happens w/o a surprise round at all (which frankly has led me to be more interested in possibly dipping other wizard schools with abilities I'd use more frequently and/or would help address specific character issues such as dealing with swarms etc)

[Shar Tahl]

That is just someone houseruling or word-bending to the point of absurd. The wording is pretty clear; Aware = No Surprise Round / Unaware = Surprise Round.

It is a Wizard Subschool, not demigod omniscience. Giving a wizard, especially a high level one, a free spell to cast every combat, regardless of the enemy perception, is ultra powerful. Free battlefield control for the rest of the party, PLUS he gets his normal full round when everyone else gets to go. He most likely goes two times in a row due to elevated initiative. That is far away from the actual words.

[Michael Sayre]

I believe that the people you were talking to were misinformed. If the ability created a surprise round every turn, it would probably state such. As it is, I believe it only applies when the other conditions for a surprise round have been met.

**EDIT** Ninja'd. Well put Shar Tahl

[Are]

I would say the ability qualifies as providing the "If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents" clause. The diviner is aware as per the forewarned ability.

[Silent Saturn]

Are wrote:

I would say the ability qualifies as providing the "If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents" clause. The diviner is aware as per the forewarned ability.

That still wouldn't create a surprise round if ALL of the combatants were aware.

[Shar Tahl]

Exactly, the diviner is aware. The diviner did not sneak up on everyone and surprise them. This ability = cannot be surprised because they are "Forewarned".

[SlimGauge]

If the thread in question is the one I think it is, it's only in the "Mexican Standoff" situation that the diviner can "create" a surprise round, and that's only by precipitating the action himself. And there's no guarantee that he's going to be first in that surprise round either, although his bonus to initiative helps.

Otherwise, the requirement that there be at least one unaware participant is still a requirement. That's why we keep the gnome blindfolded.

[Michael Sayre]

Are wrote:

I would say the ability qualifies as providing the "If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents" clause. The diviner is aware as per the forewarned ability.

You would still have to come on your enemies without them being aware of you. Forewarned wouldn't automatically fulfill that requirement. If the party manages to surprise their enemy, the diviner may act even if he was not amongst the people who otherwise succeeded their Perception checks to sense the enemy approaching, since Forewarned fulfills that requirement. It does not do anything to affect whether or not the enemy is aware of him, which they cannot be as a requisite for a surprise round.

[Gignere]

SlimGauge wrote:

If the thread in question is the one I think it is, it's only in the "Mexican Standoff" situation that the diviner can "create" a surprise round, and that's only by precipitating the action himself.

Otherwise, the requirement that there be at least one unaware participant is still a requirement. That's why we keep the gnome blindfolded.

Lol, just have one of the PCs wear a blindfold while exploring than the diviner will always have a surprise round, even better if the character wearing the blindfold is the diviner himself, than have the familiar remove the blindfold in the surprise round. Epic rules abuse.

[Michael Sayre]

Gignere wrote:

SlimGauge wrote:

If the thread in question is the one I think it is, it's only in the "Mexican Standoff" situation that the diviner can "create" a surprise round, and that's only by precipitating the action himself.

Otherwise, the requirement that there be at least one unaware participant is still a requirement. That's why we keep the gnome blindfolded.

Lol, just have one of the PCs wear a blindfold while exploring than the diviner will always have a surprise round, even better if the character wearing the blindfold is the diviner himself, than have the familiar remove the blindfold in the surprise round. Epic rules abuse.

If the wizard is the only one surprised, than everyone else is already acting in the surprise round, making this ability have no practical use in that situation....

[Are]

Of course someone (on either side) has to be unaware in order for there to be a surprise round (and the diviner will act in that surprise round), but if noone is aware the diviner still gets a surprise round all on his own.

The only time the diviner doesn't get a surprise round action is if everyone is already aware of everyone.

[Funky Badger]

Ssalarn wrote:

If the wizard is the only one surprised, than everyone else is already acting in the surprise round, making this ability have no practical use in that situation....

To all intents this manages to initiate a normal combat round, except the familier can't do anything useful.

Good job of rules abuse there... :-)

[Shar Tahl]

it would create an annoying half-round, where everyone only gets a move or standard all for the sake of using the forewarned ability every fight.

[FireclawDrake]

I like to think the Forewarned ability as "Spidey Sense". You're able to react super quickly to any danger. So fast that it seems like you knew it was about to happen.

[Michael Sayre]

Funky Badger wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

If the wizard is the only one surprised, than everyone else is already acting in the surprise round, making this ability have no practical use in that situation....

To all intents this manages to initiate a normal combat round, except the familier can't do anything useful.

Good job of rules abuse there... :-)

Wait... I've got how this would be useful! If you had an entire party built around using either Coordinated Charge or Target of Opportunity, then starting each combat with everyone limited to either a standard or move action actually becomes beneficial to the party, and that blindfolded little diviner actually does something useful and positive!

[SlimGauge]

Shar, there are a couple of rogue talents or feats or something that only work in a surprise round. I think Underhanded is one of them. I'm not saying it's worth it, but some people try very hard to generate them.

[Gignere]

Shar Tahl wrote:

it would create an annoying half-round, where everyone only gets a move or standard all for the sake of using the forewarned ability every fight.

It would guarantee a sneak attack for rogues with the talent to sneak attack during surprise rounds.

Assuming most creatures you face don't cast, all they can do is move or standard which is probably inferior to a wizard's standard action.

Also the diviner will likely win initiative too, so the diviner can pump out two spells before anyone else normal round starts.

[Shar Tahl]

This is all hypothetical and far, far outside of the RAW scope, moving everything beyond RAW to Homebrew. It steals away from immersion in situation, creating a mechanical situation that has no place. The wizard is Forewarned (forewarn - warn in advance or beforehand; give an early warning ), not the most elite, sneakiest assassin in the world. His ability effects himself only, so if someone had an auto surprise ability, his group would be unaware to, so acting alone.

[Gignere]

Shar Tahl wrote:

This is all hypothetical and far, far outside of the RAW scope. It steals away from immersion in situation, creating a mechanical situation that has no place. The wizard is Forewarned (forewarn - warn in advance or beforehand; give an early warning ), not the most elite, sneakiest assassin in the world. His ability effects himself only, so if someone had an auto surprise ability, his group would be unaware to, so acting alone.

No it is outside of RAI not RAW. By RAW if even one of the PC is blindfolded, unless that PC has blindsense there will be a surprise round.

[Michael Sayre]

Hmmm.... A blindfolded diviner/rogue/Arcane Trickster would get a round of guaranteed sneak attack damage if....

Sometimes perfectly reasonable people wander off into the far realm of Fanciful Theorycrafting and don't realize that there's a party full of people desperately trying to restrain the urge to throttle them for forcing awkward half-rounds on every combat so they can sneak in a few extra d6's.

As a GM, there'd come a time when all enemy troops are announced by battle-horns so that even the blind-folded guy knows what's coming and we can cut through the nonsense... Of course, then our theoretical player responds by taking a level of Oracle and the Deaf curse...

[Shar Tahl]

Gignere wrote:

Shar Tahl wrote:

This is all hypothetical and far, far outside of the RAW scope. It steals away from immersion in situation, creating a mechanical situation that has no place. The wizard is Forewarned (forewarn - warn in advance or beforehand; give an early warning ), not the most elite, sneakiest assassin in the world. His ability effects himself only, so if someone had an auto surprise ability, his group would be unaware to, so acting alone.

No it is outside of RAI not RAW. By RAW if even one of the PC is blindfolded, unless that PC has blindsense there will be a surprise round.

See, and that is just silly to the point of being absurd. Blinded condition just not create free surprise rounds. Otherwise, every party would have their blind slave tagging along, providing a mechanic that has no place. Lets throw a gimped half-round into every fight. Everyone is flat footed in a normal first round before the act. Sneak attack still happens for those that react fast.

I pity the GM that allows that. Lets add more work