RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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In an ideal world, a Mike/Mark answer would be appriciated.
The Guide's section on faith says the following.
Religion: Characters can elect to worship any deity listed in a table of gods in the Core Rulebook, The Inner Sea World Guide, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Gods and Magic, or any other source listed as an official Additional Resource. Characters may elect to worship an evil god, but must always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity. For clerics, this is an especially important choice, since the deity’s alignment determines whether the cleric channels positive or negative energy, a decision with significant tactical implications for the cleric and her allies. Characters who do not receive powers from a divine source may choose to be atheists or to have no deity at all.
There has been some debate about how to parse this.
Given that Clerics (and Inquisitors) have to be within one step of their deity, and that certain other classes have alignment restrictions, what about non-divine empowered worshipers?
Do all of a worshipers of a deity have to be in one step, or just the ones that get powers? Can that fighter be lawful good, and still have Cayden as his copilot? Can a chaotic good wizard worship Nethys?
Does the clause "but must always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity" modify the first half of the containing sentence "Characters may elect to worship an evil god..." or the whole section? In other words, can a monk worship Calistra but a Chelaxian Asmodaeus worshipper must be lawful evil, neutral evil, or lawful neutral?
Can PFS Paladins worship an ethos or philosophy, or must she worship a god?
Just wondering.
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Aroden is not listed as a legal deity for PFS play, as far as I know.
That being said, being an em, em atheist (agnstic) in Golarion is perfectly fine in PFS, and whose is to say that you can't be a follower of a deity without you needing that deity as your "Patron" Deity. Even the religious traits and most deity related Feats say they are only most common to those deityes, not being a follower is a prereq. Usually. A few Divine Casters get extra spells to their list, but that's irrelivent here.
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Actually Beckett, you've got that backwards:
Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil.
Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god.
It does pretty much specify that a Paladin has to serve a god/goddess.
Clerics, on the other hand:
As their powers are influenced by their faith, all clerics must focus their worship upon a divine source. While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.)
Now in PFS I believe the rule of thumb is that if the books say "ask your GM for permission" the answer is usually no, but I believe (I can't find the post where it says it) that Clerics can serve an ideal in PFS just fine.
Inquisitors also serve a deity directly, and not "the church".
Grim and determined, the inquisitor roots out enemies of the faith, using trickery and guile when righteousness and purity is not enough. Although inquisitors are dedicated to a deity, they are above many of the normal rules and conventions of the church. They answer to their deity and their own sense of justice alone, and are willing to take extreme measures to meet their goals.
Hope this helps!
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As for Aroden, I believe the text in Gods & Magic says it somewhere that while worship of Aroden continues, "divine power" from Aroden has ceased, so worship is alright but you can't be a Cleric/Inquisitor/Paladin or Aroden and still get divine magic. The only corner case, I think, would be that a Cleric of Humanity (the ideals that Aroden held to) could, but not a Cleric of Aroden.
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Hi Matthew!
Here is how the wording is parsed in your quote from Guide 4.2. These are official Pathfinder Society rulings that have been confirmed by Mark on multiple occasions.
Characters can elect to worship any deity...but must always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity. This applies to ALL characters. So, in reply to your question above, no applies to both the fighter and the cleric. This is especially true of Paladins, which is supported by sources outside of PFS. You will note that in Faiths of Balance and Faiths of Purity, the only gods who have Paladin oaths are ones who are within one step of LG.
Characters who receive powers from a divine source must worship a patron deity. In Pathfinder Society, all divine characters receive power from a deity, and may not worship an ethos or a philosophy. I believe this also reflects Golarion cannon as well, as James Jacobs has stated that there are no ethos clerics or paladins.
Hope this clears things up!
Venture-Captain, Oregon—Portland
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I've always understood this rule, but I've never liked it as far as non-clerical characters. The biggest reason is for the Racial gods.
So your dwarven rogue isn't LG, LN, CG, or NG? Sorry, you can't worship the God of Dwarves. Your elfish mage isn't LG, NG, Neutral, or CG? Then you can't worship Yuelral, elvish deity of Magic.
It works for clerical characters, and I do agree for the most part with James Jacobs that most of them should be the same alignment as their chosen deity, but I just don't get that for the non-clerical types.
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Characters who receive powers from a divine source must worship a patron deity. In Pathfinder Society, all divine characters receive power from a deity, and may not worship an ethos or a philosophy. I believe this also reflects Golarion cannon as well, as James Jacobs has stated that there are no ethos clerics or paladins.
Hope this clears things up!
Nani, second time’s the Charm... ;)
Unless something has dramatically changed, PFS has Never stated that Paladins, Rangers, Druids, Oracles need to pick a Deity in PFS, it has in fact been stated the exact opposite. And James has supported Paladins that do not worship Deities Just not Paladins that choose to worship a deity and pick one that neither fits the concept of the Paladin or is already been stated in the campaign books does not have Paladins.
The Only Devine Class in PFS that need to pick deities are Clerics and Inquisitors. All other Devine classes do not have to, but can choose to. If they do choose to pick a deity they need to follow the one-step rule, as do all other classes that choose to pick a deity for worship.
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Hi Matthew!
Here is how the wording is parsed in your quote from Guide 4.2. These are official Pathfinder Society rulings that have been confirmed by Mark on multiple occasions.
Characters can elect to worship any deity...but must always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity. This applies to ALL characters. So, in reply to your question above, no applies to both the fighter and the cleric. This is especially true of Paladins, which is supported by sources outside of PFS. You will note that in Faiths of Balance and Faiths of Purity, the only gods who have Paladin oaths are ones who are within one step of LG.
Characters who receive powers from a divine source must worship a patron deity. In Pathfinder Society, all divine characters receive power from a deity, and may not worship an ethos or a philosophy. I believe this also reflects Golarion cannon as well, as James Jacobs has stated that there are no ethos clerics or paladins.
Hope this clears things up!
So, despite Hellknights paladins in the books on Golarion, PFS does not allow you to be a Hellknight paladin?
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So, despite Hellknights paladins in the books on Golarion, PFS does not allow you to be a Hellknight paladin?
The Hellknight prestigue class, in The Inner Sea World Guide, requires a BAB +5, Intimidate 5, Knowledge (planes) 2, Heavy Armor proficiency, any Lawful alighnment, and a special RP clause that is waived for PFS.
You can be a paladin and be a Hellknight, as there is no conflict. However, some orders, such as the Order of the Gate, may conflict with your paladin code.Being a Hellknight is independant from following any religeon.
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RP explanation: So, think of it this way. In the world of Golarion, having a patron deity is a very real and important thing. It determines what spells/traits/etc affect you. It determines where your character goes in the afterlife. It's something that a character chooses, whether it is because they inherited it from their culture/parents or if they convert to it later in life. In my opinion, "goes to church and celebrates holidays" does not constitute patron deity. That would be silly, as people in Golarion all have Erastil harvest holidays, go to Shelyn to get married, go to Pharasma to be buried, and/or attend the festivals/stuff of a given culture. EVERYONE in Cheliax "worships" Asmodeus, as in they go to his chuch services and tithe him...otherwise Hellknights would come knocking at your door. That's not the same thing, as dedicating yourself to a patron deity. And probably a plenty of non-divine characters don't actually have one...they acknowledge whatever god that happens to be presiding over what they are doing (Desna, could really use a lucky break right now! Gozreh, it'd be nice if it stopped raining.) But in order to gain the benefits of a trait, feat, spell, or whatever, for having a god as your patron, you have to actually be pious, and actually believe in and adhere to the tenets of that god. We are talking roughly here...you aren't bound by a code like a cleric is, and the character has a lot of wiggle room. I know people are going to disagree with me here, but isnt the definitition of having a patron deity that you believe in their cause? This is the crux of the alignment debate here. If you are a vastly different alignment from your god (2 or more steps away) then you aren't really a believer then, are you?
For example, say you are a LG wizard. Why shouldn't you be able to worship Nethys? He/she is the god of all magic, right? But Nethys's nature is all about the duality of his form...and the neutrality of magic as a balancing point. He is both destruction and creation, law and order, good and evil, all wrapped up in the mysteries of magic. So, from a Roleplaying standpoint, you can't worship him as a patron deity because either a) you believe in balance in magic (and therefore are not LG) or b) you believe and actively act in a way that law and good are superior to balance (and therefore don't believe in the central shtick of your deity).
Point being, of course you can be a LG wizard and "worship" Nethys. You can have a little shrine to him in your lab, use his spells, go to the church there and leave a tithe and get some rare reagents. But that wizard (since he believes that he should live his life upholding values of beneficence and order) doesn't adhere to the TRUE beliefs of Nethys, and therefore Nethys is not his patron. In this example, He might not have a patron deity at all. Or perhaps he finds a different god, with an ethos more closely matching his own, that he will dedicate himself to. Doesn't mean that he won't continue to tithe the church of Nethys and get his eye of newt there.
Gornil, I completely understand your point about racial deities. But remember that in Golarion the lore was designed specifically that there is less emphasis on racial. Sure, Torag is pretty fond of dwarves, but he is not only the god of dwarves nor is he exclusively worshipped by dwarves. This was a deliberate decision on the part of the world makers, to shy away from the absolute racial religions. Your dwarven rogue, if he was CG (Torag is LG for the record), would probably not identify with the god of tradition and hard work, would not be adhering to those tenets...and probably would not want to go to Heaven (the plane) when he died anyway. He would far more closely identify with, for example, Cayden Cailean. And probably many CG dwarves do...and they probably have statues of him as a dwarf and a beard and a big tankard of Dwarven stout. Because Cayden is not a god of humans...he's a god of beer and fighting and bar brawls and all kinds of chaotic goodness. But he, as a dwarf, would still go to Torag's church for Brewfest, and to honor his ancestors, and all that jazz.
Rules explanation: if you want to benefit mechanically from worshiping a god as your patron deity, then you must be within one alignment step of him. I understand if you disagree, and in your own home game, you can play with whatever rules you want. However, in PFS, the organized play campaign adheres to the rules established by existing Golarion Lore, and has been definitely ruled on by the campaign developer. That's the way that the rules function in this world of tangible alignment and physical gods.
Edit: holy cow, I stepped away from typing this message way longer than I thought. Holy ninjas!
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So, despite Hellknights paladins in the books on Golarion, PFS does not allow you to be a Hellknight paladin?The Hellknight prestigue class, in The Inner Sea World Guide, requires a BAB +5, Intimidate 5, Knowledge (planes) 2, Heavy Armor proficiency, any Lawful alighnment, and a special RP clause that is waived for PFS.
You can be a paladin and be a Hellknight, as there is no conflict. However, some orders, such as the Order of the Gate, may conflict with your paladin code.
Being a Hellknight is independant from following any religeon.
So you serve Cheliax and train with devils, you don't worship Asmodeous. Got it!
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Characters who receive powers from a divine source must worship a patron deity. In Pathfinder Society, all divine characters receive power from a deity, and may not worship an ethos or a philosophy. I believe this also reflects Golarion cannon as well, as James Jacobs has stated that there are no ethos clerics or paladins.
Hope this clears things up!
Nani, second time’s the Charm... ;)
Unless something has dramatically changed, PFS has Never stated that Paladins, Rangers, Druids, Oracles need to pick a Deity in PFS, it has in fact been stated the exact opposite. And James has supported Paladins that do not worship Deities Just not Paladins that choose to worship a deity and pick one that neither fits the concept of the Paladin or is already been stated in the campaign books does not have Paladins.
The Only Devine Class in PFS that need to pick deities are Clerics and Inquisitors. All other Devine classes do not have to, but can choose to. If they do choose to pick a deity they need to follow the one-step rule, as do all other classes that choose to pick a deity for worship.
Hey Dragnmoon! Ugh, I totally have to run after typing my megapost. I got a little carried away :P I'll see if I can find a reference for "what is a divine character" in PFS a bit later, so stay tuned.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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So you serve Cheliax and train with devils, you don't worship Asmodeous. Got it!
So, despite Hellknights paladins in the books on Golarion, PFS does not allow you to be a Hellknight paladin?The Hellknight prestigue class, in The Inner Sea World Guide, requires a BAB +5, Intimidate 5, Knowledge (planes) 2, Heavy Armor proficiency, any Lawful alighnment, and a special RP clause that is waived for PFS.
You can be a paladin and be a Hellknight, as there is no conflict. However, some orders, such as the Order of the Gate, may conflict with your paladin code.
Being a Hellknight is independant from following any religeon.
I know of a Chelish hellknight that worships Iomedae and it plays quite well. You can receive powers from a LG god, belong to a L society, and reject any obviously evil missions from your LE faction without treading across too many lines.
EDIT: Here's another great example :)
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EVERYONE in Cheliax "worships" Asmodeus, as in they go to his chuch services and tithe him...otherwise Hellknights would come knocking at your door. That's not the same thing, as dedicating yourself to a patron deity.
So paladins from Cheliax are only half-hearted in their devotion to Asmodeous, whose "worship" is required of them by law. In short, paladin hellknights, as well as all paladins from Cheliax, "worship" and promote Asmodeous as required by law, but don't worship Asmodeous. Thus, the distiction between a Paladin Hellknight that is allowed and even encouraged, and the forbidden Paladin of Asmodeous that is against the rules.
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Actually Beckett, you've got that backwards:
Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil.Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god.It does pretty much specify that a Paladin has to serve a god/goddess.
They do not. Neither in the core book or in PFS, they can gain the powers from the concepts of goodness and law. ONLY CLerics can not. I, personally think this is rediculous, and would say that Paladins, Inquisitors, and maybe even Druids MUST have a Patron Deity, and allow Concept Clerics, but that is the way it works n PFS.
Clerics, on the other hand:
As their powers are influenced by their faith, all clerics must focus their worship upon a divine source. While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.)
Now in PFS I believe the rule of thumb is that if the books say "ask your GM for permission" the answer is usually no, but I believe (I can't find the post where it says it) that Clerics can serve an ideal in PFS just fine.
Inquisitors also serve a deity directly, and not "the church".
Grim and determined, the inquisitor roots out enemies of the faith, using trickery and guile when righteousness and purity is not enough. Although inquisitors are dedicated to a deity, they are above many of the normal rules and conventions of the church. They answer to their deity and their own sense of justice alone, and are willing to take extreme measures to meet their goals.Hope this helps!
Again, officially, they do not have to worship a deity, and where specifically designed to be allowed for reigions likze the Cult of Raz, and other false divine sources. I disagree, and wouldn't allowit if it where my choice, but officially they do not require a deity, ONLY Clerics do for Divine Spells.
:)
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It does pretty much specify that a Paladin has to serve a god/goddess.They do not. Neither in the core book or in PFS, they can gain the powers from the concepts of goodness and law. ONLY CLerics can not. I, personally think this is rediculous, and would say that Paladins, Inquisitors, and maybe even Druids MUST have a Patron Deity, and allow Concept Clerics, but that is the way it works n PFS.
Wait...are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me...?
For me,
Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god.
makes it pretty clear, especially given that the Cleric entry is the only one (other than Oracle) where it details any way to get divine powers other than by serving a divine entity (i.e. a god/goddess).
As their powers are influenced by their faith, all clerics must focus their worship upon a divine source. While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.)
Grim and determined, the inquisitor roots out enemies of the faith, using trickery and guile when righteousness and purity is not enough. Although inquisitors are dedicated to a deity, they are above many of the normal rules and conventions of the church. They answer to their deity and their own sense of justice alone, and are willing to take extreme measures to meet their goals.
Again, officially, they do not have to worship a deity, and where specifically designed to be allowed for reigions likze the Cult of Raz, and other false divine sources. I disagree, and wouldn't allowit if it where my choice, but officially they do not require a deity, ONLY Clerics do for Divine Spells.
Um...it does say right there that "They answer to their deity and their own sense of justice alone," which seems pretty clear to me at least...
Clerics, as the above from the PRD/Core states, can have faith in a false deity/concept/etc and still get powers. No one's saying there aren't clerics of Raz or clerics who follow the Prophecies of Kalistrade, but I've never heard of an Inquisitor/Paladin of either.
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Hey Dragnmoon! Ugh, I totally have to run after typing my megapost. I got a little carried away :P I'll see if I can find a reference for "what is a divine character" in PFS a bit later, so stay tuned.
Though I know one exists, I cannot find a PFS Quote that talks about Paladins in PFS. Work network is slow as hell and the searching takes to long.
But I do have these from James Jacobs..
First one I don't think he is correct on the Inquisitor, but who knows.
Of all the classes in Golarion... only clerics MUST have a patron deity, since only clerics get their spells from a patron deity.
Other divine spellcasters CAN have patron deities, and in some cases (inquisitors and paladins) they USUALLY have patron deities, but that's not always the case.
I'm not sure where and when I said all paladins need deities, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't and that's a misquote.
Here is a Post from James on Paladin who do worship Gods.
The deities I listed are all of those on Golarion whose faiths maintain actual paladin orders or knighthoods. Irori's paladin orders are VERY small and uncommon, while Iomedae's are VERY common and are basically the iconic paladin orders.
You can be a paladin and worship ANY god. But here's the thing.
In order to be a paladin, you have to be lawful good.
If your deity is lawful good... no issues.
If your deity is lawful neutral or neutral good, then you'll occasionally have conflicts between your faith and your paladin vows. When these conflicts occur, you need to err on the side of your paladin code and not on the side of your faith. Religions like Sarenrae and Abadar are very forgiving of that, and thus they have pretty robust paladin orders. Those of Shelyn are not AS forgiving, and Irori's faith is even less forgiving.
If your deity is any other alignment, your paladin vows will pretty much be conflicting with your religion every day of your life in some way. As a result, a paladin who worships a deity of one of these other alignments is on various levels mocking, blaspheming, or otherwise disrespecting his supposed religion, and that, to me, means your NOT really worshiping that deity.
So in my take, a paladin who worships a non LG, NG, or LN deity is simply a confusing self-contradicting weirdo.
Played properly, in other words, a paladin would not WANT to worship any other alignment deity.
Here is James List of the Main 20 Gods with Paladin Orders or follwers.
Of the core 20 deities in Golarion, the following have paladins serving them (note that this is NOT the same as saying all paladins serve deities). They're listed in the order of who has the most paladins and who has the least paladins.
1: Iomedae
2: Erastil
3: Torag
4: Sarenrae
5: Abadar
6: Shelyn
7: Irori
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Unless something has dramatically changed, PFS has Never stated that Paladins, Rangers, Druids, Oracles need to pick a Deity in PFS, it has in fact been stated the exact opposite.
I know that the prior Guide had slightly different wording, however as I understand it, the intent has always been that all Divine characters require a god. If you could find a link for a prior statement saying otherwise, I'll take it to heart, however...
Characters who do not receive powers from a divine source may choose to be atheists or to have no deity at all.
The only way to not worship a deity... is to not gain your powers from a divine source. Divine source isn't explicitly described in the rulebook, however it's pretty easy to glean which classes are divine based. Regardless of the Core Rulebook etc., what matters is this line in the 4.2 Guide.
If you cast divine spells, those abilities come from a divine source. Past that, look at the "fluff" of the class and see what you can find. For a Paladin... the first sentence lays it out: "Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine." That would mean that any supernatural / spell-like abilities for the Paladin come from a divine source.
A druid is a little more tricky, however their spellcasting is divine... so to be able to cast spells you need to worship a god.
In this way, apply the reasoning for other classes that may be divine based.
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Thanks, honey!
Dragnmoon, I see where you are coming from about it just being the cleric and inquisitor. I apologize that I can't find a direct quote at the moment from the PFS folks, but it seems via the Guide it's pretty self-explanatory that "I cast divine spells" = "recieves powers from a divine source". Just as "I cast arcane spells" = "recieves power from an arcane source". Actually, one of my regular group members (an oracle of flame) changed his alignment in order to worship a valid God when Guide 4.2 came out, since we had previously also thought that he didn't need a deity.
I see that from your quotes above that this appears to be a PFS ruling only and not a James Jacobs Golarion ruling. I apologize for my mistake. I agree that the wording in the Guide can be misconstrued, and we should definitely suggest to M&M that it be worded better in the next revision.
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The Green Faith is also allowed in the various sourcebooks of the additional resources. There are a few options in additional resources that are not a single deity per se: The Green Faith, the Dark Tapestry, Ancestor Worship (differentiated by tribe), and other pantheons that I can't confidently cite from memory, while at work.
Outside of the current PFS Guide 4.2, I'd agree with you. However from my reading philosophies are simply additional / side thoughts about the character... but don't grant any divine power. Perhaps the wording in the Guide will be updated in the future to make it clearer about this, but for now I don't see how a philosophy fits the position a god would.
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Outside of the current PFS Guide 4.2, I'd agree with you. However from my reading philosophies are simply additional / side thoughts about the character... but don't grant any divine power. Perhaps the wording in the Guide will be updated in the future to make it clearer about this, but for now I don't see how a philosophy fits the position a god would.
From the field guide
Green Faith (4 PP): Whether a druid or not, you have
an undying respect for nature and value its protection
above nearly all else. Your affiliation with the Green
Faith has given you special insight into the natural world,
providing you a +2 circumstance bonus on all Knowledge
(nature) checks.
So its allowed.
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Hi All!
So, I have a question...what is the Green Faith's domains? What about the Prophecies of Kalistrade? They are right next to each other in the Inner Sea World Guide. You argue that they are valid choices as deities, but I'm not sure the text in them supports that. If they were indeed deities, then they would have a handy little chart, like every other deity, indicating all of their domains, favored weapons, etc etc. In fact, they have "associated religions" as part of their entries. That would seem to indicate that they are not in fact religions at all. The Prophecies of Kalistrade is abundantly clear that it is, in fact, NOT a divine source in any way shape or form. I think it would be exceedingly difficult to argue that you should be able to receive divine spells from the Prophecies.
So, let's make the argument for Green Faith instead...lots of druids follow the Green Faith right? Clearly a valid choice for a druid. But wait, why is it that one philosophy is like a deity, and another one that is in the same section of the book, and classified as the same thing, isn't? Who gets to decide that?
The answer is clearly, the GM. And in Pathfinder Society, the GM is the campaign coordinator and campaign developer. And they have said: "Characters can elect to worship any deity listed in a table of gods in the Core Rulebook, The Inner Sea World Guide, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Gods and Magic, or any other source listed as an official Additional Resource."
Deity. Not philosophy. Not pantheon. Deity. I'm sure if that changes in the campaign, then they will change the Guide accordingly. But until then, that's the rules!
BigNorseWolf, greetings! I think you're pulling that from the Field Guide p.61 of the vanities, right? So, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see anything from that quote that says that the Green Faith is a valid source for divine spells. The Green Faith is by no means disallowed from the campaign. Your character can choose to believe anything they would like, including being a Prophet of Kalistrade or a follower of the Whispering Way. But the argument at hand is that a philosophy is NOT a patron deity. You cannot receive spells from it. And if you are playing a divine character, you still need a valid deity.
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@Nani. thank you for repeating the very text I quoted for me.
@Beckett. Aroden is listed as a deity in Humans of Golarion, so he seems to be fair game :-)
@ Will. Actually, if you really want to parse the language, as I noted, the phrase "but must always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity" only modifies the first part of the sentence "Characters can worship an evil god" and not "Characters can elect to worship any deity listed in a table of gods in the Core Rulebook, The Inner Sea World Guide, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Gods and Magic, or any other source listed as an official Additional Resource."
Strictly speaking of course.
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The only way to not worship a deity... is to not gain your powers from a divine source. Divine source isn't explicitly described in the rulebook
Actually yes it is..
Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells, and the divine forces of law and good power paladin spells.
So a Divine Source is
Deities or Divine forces
Divine Forces are further broken down for the specific Divine classes in the Core book as:
Nature powers For Druid & Ranger
Law and Good power for Paladin
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but I don't see anything from that quote that says that the Green Faith is a valid source for divine spells.
Well it says outright that its a faith for druids.
The inner sea world guide sets druidism as older than the other faiths.
Druidism is pretty much synonymous with the green faith.
The description of Gozreh in the inner sea world guide states that the majority of druids follow philosophies, not gods (but turn to Gozreh on occasion)
Nature either IS a divine source, or druids do not draw their power from a divine source. If you insist on being hyper technical, can you point to anything that says they draw on a divine source for their divine spells?
Also
Well... while all clerics are religious, not all religious folks are clerics. There's plenty of room for non-deity religions in Golarion—we've included many of them in the world specifically because non-deity religions are interesting, in fact. Druids and oracles are more or less the primary spellcasting agents of said religions.-James jacobs
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I think Part of the problem is in the Old Campaign Setting Vs the New Inner Sea world Guide it said this about Paladins...
Some paladins serve Abadar, Irori, or Shelyn, but paladins who serve no specific god are actually more common.
I have not found that restated more recently other then James Jacobs saying the same.
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So, Dragnmoon: Since I indirectly sparked this...
Does this mean that a Paladin who gets their divine powers from the divine forces of Law and Good could be a lay worshipper rather than divine communicant of Pharasma? One who lets the tenets of Pharasma guide her actions?
One who heals her downed opponents because she does not wish to presume to tell the Lady of Graves when someone should die, and who talks to those people she's healed about the nature of Good, and why they've been given a second chance?
If her power comes from the forces of Law and Good, does she have to give up the 5th level Divine Bond power which specifically states it comes from a closer relationship to her god?
If that Paladin later took 3 levels in Shadowdancer, would she need to get an atonement spell if she ever used the Summon Shadow special ability and got a Lawful Good shadow as a pet for PFS play? Note that nothing in any of the other Paladin codes would make the use of a lawful good undead ally something worthy of atonement...
Would it be fair to say she's deluding herself in thinking that Pharasma is providing her power, or would you be willing to accept that the gods and who they favor follow courses and reasons that are beyond mortal ken?
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IMO only...
Does this mean that a Paladin who gets their divine powers from the divine forces of Law and Good could be a lay worshipper rather than divine communicant of Pharasma? One who lets the tenets of Pharasma guide her actions?
One who heals her downed opponents because she does not wish to presume to tell the Lady of Graves when someone should die, and who talks to those people she's healed about the nature of Good, and why they've been given a second chance?
A Paladin in Golarion who consciously chose to not associate with a divine Deity would not lean towards any specific god, he made his choice not to do so once he chose not to associate with a Deity. He may admire many aspects of many gods but would not lean towards a specific one. If he leaned towards a specific one then he would not be godless, and has already been stated Pharasma is not a choice a Paladin can make.
A Paladin is supposed to be the Paragon of all his deities Tenants he cannot pick and choose just the ones that fall within his paladin code, and ignore the other, if he did he would quickly lose his powers either through following Tenants that went against being a Paladin or Due to Not being the Paragon he is supposed to be because he chooses not to follow certain believes of his Deity.
Sure you can say, that is fine I will get atonement when I screw up, but that leads to the path of ex-paladinhood, atonement is for those rare times you screw up, not to fix the constant problems with following a deity that goes against being a Paladin.
If her power comes from the forces of Law and Good, does she have to give up the 5th level Divine Bond power which specifically states it comes from a closer relationship to her god?
Nope you god is Law and Order.
If that Paladin later took 3 levels in Shadowdancer, would she need to get an atonement spell if she ever used the Summon Shadow special ability and got a Lawful Good shadow as a pet for PFS play? Note that nothing in any of the other Paladin codes would make the use of a lawful good undead ally something worthy of atonement...
That one is a bit harder, there is nothing specific about Paladins and Undead unless it is related to a specific Deity. But IMO I feel Shadowdancer does not fit Paladin, but there is nothing RAW wise to stop it from happening.
Would it be fair to say she's deluding herself in thinking that Pharasma is providing her power, or would you be willing to accept that the gods and who they favor follow courses and reasons that are beyond mortal ken?
So here is the deal on that, Lets say I brought a Cleric of Pharasma into a game you were in. My Cleric of Pharasma knows full well Pharasma does not have paladins. He would see your claims of worship or what ever you want to call it as an insult to her Goddess, and would think either you were crazy and should be kicked out of PFS because of that, lying and be amazed if you had any Paladin powers at all for lying, or lying about being a Paladin. Basically you would conflict with the fact that I know to be true, Pharasma does not have paladins.
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AdAstraGames wrote:
Would it be fair to say she's deluding herself in thinking that Pharasma is providing her power, or would you be willing to accept that the gods and who they favor follow courses and reasons that are beyond mortal ken?So here is the deal on that, Lets say I brought a Cleric of Pharasma into a game you were in. My Cleric of Pharasma knows full well Pharasma does not have paladins. He would see your claims of worship or what ever you want to call it as an insult to her Goddess, and would think either you were crazy and should be kicked out of PFS because of that, lying and be amazed if you had any Paladin powers at all for lying, or lying about being a Paladin. Basically you would conflict with the fact that I know to be true, Pharasma does not have paladins.
Emphasis mine.
How would your Cleric know that Pharasma has no Paladins? Does he know every communicant of Pharasma on sight? Would he be able to identify someone who wasn't a communicant using a Pharasman holy symbol?
Does he presume to know all of the things Pharasma knows?
Or could he accept that there are multiple ways to venerate the Lady of Graves, and one of them is being a scourge to undead, or being a conscienced person who, while they will fight for the good of communities, and to preserve the pregnant and the young, will also not presume to tell the Lady of Graves when someone should go to the Boneyard?
Game rule knowledge is a closed set. Actual interactions with divinity may not be so clear cut...
The world of the divine is full of mysteries, like Pharasma not knowing (or knowing and concealing the knowledge of) Aroden's death in 4606 AR. Canonically (Death's Heretic), Pharasma grants her spells and abilities to Salim Ghadafar, a devoted antitheist; not merely someone who doesn't worship her, but someone who resents the meddling of all deities in the affairs of the mortal world.
Would your cleric of Pharasma see a character modeled off of that book character as an affront?
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As to the Paladin/Shadowdancer question:
Rules as Written, it's allowed. Making it fit into a roleplaying concept and set of themes? That's where it gets challenging.
However, a Paladin is tasked with not just ministering to the people and improving communities. A Paladin is also tasked with going forward and eliminating threats to those communities.
One cannot always fight evil by manning the barricades. Sometimes, one must go into the darkness itself, and strike at the forces therin.
And Shadowdancer is a decent way to make a "commando-Paladin".
If I take my "Paladin of Law and Good who is a lay worshipper of Pharasma" to Shadowdancer 3, I fully expect to pay the gold or PA to pay for an atonement spell any time I'm desperate enough to use the Shadow Call ability to summon an undead shade. Were the character a Paladin of Iomedae, this wouldn't be an issue...
In character, SHE would expect to have to atone to Pharasma for that, even if, well, the only reason she thinks that is self delusion.
Most people try to use roleplaying as their justification for "gimme access to this Uber-Cool Ability". I'm actually using it as a justification for paying a penalty that nobody would enforce on me in PFS OrgPlay - if I found a GM who'd let that character sit their table in the first place, because, well, if you sit a Paladin of Pharasma at your table, apparently, you also have to let the Synthesist Summoner who gets three bonus combat feats every even level also play too...
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Most people try to use roleplaying as their justification for "gimme access to this Uber-Cool Ability". I'm actually using it as a justification for paying a penalty that nobody would enforce on me in PFS OrgPlay - if I found a GM who'd let that character sit their table in the first place, because, well, if you sit a Paladin of Pharasma at your table, apparently, you also have to let the Synthesist Summoner who gets three bonus combat feats every even level also play too...
And this, right here, is the issue.
I'm not saying I don't like your character's concept. I'm not saying they wouldn't be fun to play with. I'm not even saying I wouldn't allow it in my home games. However, I wouldn't let that character sit at my PFSOP table any more than I would let the Synthesist do it.
Why?
Because the rules for PFSOP state that a Paladin who pays more than just passing lip-service to a god outside their allowed alignment is not legal for Organized Play. As a GM for Organized Play, I have to follow the rules, and I'm not going to have my VO's throwing the book at me for knowingly allowing you to play a banned character.
Organized Play has rules. If you don't like those rules, save that interesting character for a home game or an online, non-PFS, game.