"We Do a Full Body Cavity Search on the Demoness"


Gamer Life General Discussion

551 to 600 of 809 << first < prev | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | next > last >>

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
KC, this entire thread was worth it for your post. (^-^)
People just don't realize that maybe those monsters were given crappy gear for a reason...

Yeah. I totally get ya. Their bosses took all their good stuff and are using them for cannon fodder. Mean, and nasty, but whatever works right?

Kobold Chieftain: "Now, quickly my minions, block the doors!"
Kobold #23: "B-but boss, where is all our gear!? W-we're supposed to have crossbows, and barrels, and traps, and oil..."
Kobold Chieftain: "Don't worry, those upworlders are pansies, we can take them without that stuff." *is glittering like a Christmas tree*
Kobold #14: "We really need to form a union..."


Ashiel wrote:
Grimmy wrote:
Ashiel why do you default to heroic? Just a preference? I save that for recurring NPC's with names. That's why my numbers for the werewolf were based on 390 GP instead of 780.

Because the standard werewolf is a 2nd level Fighter. It's already a heroic NPC. EDIT: Even if it wasn't, it has NPC gear for it's CR. Monster Advancement notes that this means Heroic gear. So in either case he has 2nd level NPC gear.

EDIT 2: Also, looking at the werewolf entry, even in hybrid form where it has all its gear and wolf bonuses (AC 22), it's still dismantled by a couple of alchemist fires. You could have this poochy running for the hills at 1st level if you've made any gold past your starting cash (or you're an alchemist :P).

Yup just reverse engineered him in Hero Lab, you are correct the bestiary werewolf has Heroic level stat array.


Ashiel wrote:

Yeah. I totally get ya. Their bosses took all their good stuff and are using them for cannon fodder. Mean, and nasty, but whatever works right?

Kobold Chieftain: "Now, quickly my minions, block the doors!"
Kobold #23: "B-but boss, where is all our gear!? W-we're supposed to have crossbows, and barrels, and traps, and oil..."
Kobold Chieftain: "Don't worry, those upworlders are pansies, we can take them without that stuff." *is glittering like a Christmas tree*
Kobold #14: "We really need to form a union..."

Golden armor isn't cheap, you know. Nor is it at all useful, but arguing with the chief tends to put one out of his good graces.


Grimmy wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Grimmy wrote:
Ashiel why do you default to heroic? Just a preference? I save that for recurring NPC's with names. That's why my numbers for the werewolf were based on 390 GP instead of 780.

Because the standard werewolf is a 2nd level Fighter. It's already a heroic NPC. EDIT: Even if it wasn't, it has NPC gear for it's CR. Monster Advancement notes that this means Heroic gear. So in either case he has 2nd level NPC gear.

EDIT 2: Also, looking at the werewolf entry, even in hybrid form where it has all its gear and wolf bonuses (AC 22), it's still dismantled by a couple of alchemist fires. You could have this poochy running for the hills at 1st level if you've made any gold past your starting cash (or you're an alchemist :P).
Yup just reverse engineered him in Hero Lab, you are correct the bestiary werewolf has Heroic level stat array.

*nod nod*

Also, for the record...

Bestiary wrote:
A monster with class levels always possesses treasure equal to an NPC of a level equal to the monster's final CR (as calculated in Step 3, below). To determine the value of this gear, use the value listed for a heroic NPC of that level, as listed in Table: NPC Gear. Once a total GP value is determined, follow the rules for outfitting an NPC as outlined in that section. Gear should help a monster with class levels remain challenging and retain statistics close to those presented on Table 1-1: Monster Statistics by CR.

I imagine that NPC gear is the same, since it does not differentiate between monsters with NPC or PC classes, all get heroic gear based on CR. Thus it seems gnolls should have 390 gp worth of gear, which makes sense, because that's the amount of gold a non-heroic NPC of the same CR would receive based on the chart (heroic NPCs are supposedly CR-1, but get heroic gold, so if you have a CR 1 creature getting heroic 1 gear, then they're getting the same gear as a 3rd level heroic NPC).

The math all seems to add up.


Does it add up for a CR 1/3 with NPC gear though? I'm still stuck on that. Since Table: NPC Gear starts at Level 1.

Are you saying it's ok because that's Basic, and monsters get Heroic? So CR 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 creatures with NPC Gear all get 260 GP? And CR 1 monsters with NPC Gear get 390?

thread about it here needs bumpage


Kobolds have the same CR as housecats.

Watch out.


Grimmy wrote:

Does it add up for a CR 1/3 with NPC gear though? I'm still stuck on that. Since Table: NPC Gear starts at Level 1.

Are you saying it's ok because that's Basic, and monsters get Heroic? So CR 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 creatures with NPC Gear all get 260 GP? And CR 1 monsters with NPC Gear get 390?

thread about it here needs bumpage

I haven't posted in your thread, since I don't have an answer I am certain about. However, a CR 1/3 human warrior has 260 gp, so I see no reason to assume the same does not go for any other 1st level NPC classed character. I believe that 260 gp is the minimum, and I would give 260 gp to kobolds as well, simply because it is the minimum listed in the book.

That being said, if I was to come up with a custom progression for equipment for exceptionally low CR creatures, such as kobolds, I would suggest the following table.

CR 1/8: 97.5 gp
CR 1/6: 130 gp
CR 1/4: 195 gp

Mind you, I have absolutely no idea how you'd end up with a CR 1/6 or 1/8 classed NPC but these values might be useful for running low-fantasy games on the slow XP progression (which would bring your NPC funds down by -2). I determined the values by taking the standard CR 1 encounter treasure of 260 gp, dividing it as appropriate, then tripling it (since NPC treasure values are triple standard for a creature of the same CR, noted in the Gamemastering section).


Sleep with one eye open, Umbral. Our tribe has a firm rule against discussing that incident. You're liable to get skewered if you don't watch your mouth.
When you manage to take out an archmage despite all the odds, that's supposed to be the end of the fight. WHY COULDN'T HE JUST MAKE DO WITH A MAGIC STAFF LIKE EVERYONE ELSE?!


Umbral Reaver wrote:

Kobolds have the same CR as housecats.

Watch out.

Yeah I never understood that. Seriously, commoner-slaying aside, housecats should be around CR 1/6 or 1/8 or so. In fact, most of the familiars and other tiny animals should be CR 1/6 to 1/8. To suggest that this bird is the same CR as this goblin is a gross mistake IMHO. The goblin I'll buy, but the bird is free XP.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Sleep with one eye open, Umbral. Our tribe has a firm rule against discussing that incident. You're liable to get skewered if you don't watch your mouth.

When you manage to take out an archmage despite all the odds, that's supposed to be the end of the fight. WHY COULDN'T HE JUST MAKE DO WITH A MAGIC STAFF LIKE EVERYONE ELSE?!

Omigod, that cat must have had HP for days. XD


Ashiel wrote:


Mind you, I have absolutely no idea how you'd end up with a CR 1/6 or 1/8 classed NPC but these values might be useful for running low-fantasy games on the slow XP progression (which would bring your NPC funds down by -2). I determined the values by taking the standard CR 1 encounter treasure of 260 gp, dividing it as appropriate, then tripling it (since NPC treasure values are triple standard for a creature of the same CR, noted in the Gamemastering section).

That's exactly why I need these values. I'm running low-fantasy and contemplating slow progression.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

On the subject of CR vs CR, and with the housecats thing, I again have to wonder why on earth do familiars have CRs that high? Matched up next to a kobold, even a kobold without gear (let's say a single club and a single sling, and completely naked), the kobold is still a much scarier threat.

All the familiars have no reach. At all. Which means they cannot threaten anything that is not within the same space as themselves. Thus a housecat that decides it really wants to kill you for some reason, must move into your space, provoke an attack of opportunity, then attempt to scratch you for 1 nonlethal damage. Also since it has no reach, if you were for some reason really afraid of this housecat (sat it's a 20th level wizard's familiar and thus it's a piddly CR 1/4 creature that happens to have around 100 HP), you would just attack->move, then take another AoO each time the cat closed.

Compare to a kobold, who even naked, has a 30 ft. movement speed, threaten the usual 5 ft. space, and can hurl projectile weapons at you, has more HP (kobold warriors have 5 hp standard vs 3 hp standard, and even with their strength penalty, can throw rocks at from a sling and still somehow manage to deal damage. Armed with so much as a simple light crossbow, and they can whack you from 80 ft. away for 1d6 lethal damage, and that's before considering they are devious and sneaky little bastards who can not only use good tactics but thrive by it.

I'd seriously recommend house-ruling all familiars down at least one CR step, if not two. Most of them are CR 1/8 material. Plus, that would give you the very cool option of having the weird cat lady secretly being an evil cultist with a horde of trained attack cats. Oh boy, that's so much fun that I want to gift the thread with an encounter writeup!

Old Lady Eva and her Cats (CR 4 encounter)
Evangelica Rotmire, or as the townsfolk call her "Old Lady Eva", is a strange old woman who seems nice and cheery, and lives on the edge of town brewing strange concoctions and living with her pet kitty cats. A strange woman, she sometimes opens her doors to weary travelers, and gives candies to the local children.

Little does the town realize, however, that this 78 year old crone hides a dark secret. Her late husband Ruthland Rotemire was a terrible priest of an evil god, and she was to be his apprentice. However, Ruthland died of an apparent heart attack after he was caught sporting with lady Eva's sister long ago. Some who recall back that far wonder if perhaps the guilt got to him, or if it was lady Eva's rat poisons. Regardless, the old crone learned a few secrets of magic from her husband before his passing, and despite her age is quite healthy.

Worse yet, Evangelica sometimes offers travelers safe haven in her home, only to poison their food with tranquilizers. Then, she kills them in the middle of the night and steals their organs to further her own twisted experiments. By the townsfolks' understanding, the visitors have always left town after their visits. Hoping to regain her youth, she keeps the eyes of her victims preserved in jars. She needs 108 human eyes to complete a ritual she found fifteen years ago, which is supposed to return her to her fruitful youth once again, or grant her some semblance of immortality...or something. She's really not too sure about the details.

It will either return her to her youth, or maybe turn her into some sort of undead thingy like a vampire or something. It's partially written in a language she's not fully aware of, and she's winging it a bit.

After the party has met up with a fellow traveler in town, the traveler spends the night at old lady Eva's house, and then doesn't show up where the PCs expected them to. Having given the PCs clear explanation of how long the visitor was expecting to remain in the town and where he or she was going to be, the PCs might become curious as to the whereabouts of the NPC. Depending on just how dark you want the game to be, you could have the PCs have the chance before ol' Eva puts her "guest" to the kris and plucks out their beautiful eyes to finally complete her 108 eye-bead ritual.

Encounter Breakdown
Madam Eva (CR 1/2, 200 XP) is a 3rd level venerable human adept. She is physically frail, but she carries a kris-knife (dagger) that was her late husbands (and she brags about how sharp it is to those who listen, but she notes that it is purely an ornamental memento of her husband). She wears little beyond her commoner's clothing, but she is an adept poisonmaker and potion brewer. In addition to other skills and feats, she has Craft (Alchemy), Handle Animal and the Brew Potion feat. Her equipment consists almost entirely of alchemical items (flasks, poisons, tanglefoot bags) and potions (360 gp in goods).

Important Spells Prepared
1st - bless x2, sleep

Eva's Kitties (CR 1/8 each, 1,000 XP) are the cats who live in and around Eva's house. She has trained the cats in secret to be hunters and attack-dogs (figuratively) for her. A bizarre then to be certain, but the cats are trained to collect food and bring it to her, and so she constantly fixes meals of squirrel, rat, toad, and other small rodents and birds. Upon command, this seemingly sweet pack of cats set to hissing and becoming violent in a way that would terrify most people at the sight.

She has no less than 20 cats who typically spend their time around her. If she is found out, Eva may surprise the party by casting bless on herself and all of the cats piled around her living room (or other location). This grants a +1 to hit for 30 rounds. She then uses her move action to direct the cats to all attack the party.

If the party is not overrun by her horde of angry kitties, Eva tries to use this opportunity to escape, possibly returning to haunt the PCs once her dark ritual has finally been resolved...

EDIT: This is an "Epic" encounter for a 1st level party. In addition, the cats have a +5 to hit with their attacks while blessed, but can only deal 1 point of nonlethal damage per successful hit. Also, remember that healing spells and effects heal an equal amount of nonlethal damage as they do lethal, so if Lady Eva fire-bombs a PC for 6 damage, and the cats deal 5 nonlethal damage to the same PC, a single cure light wounds for 6+ damage heals all of it.


Grimmy wrote:
Ashiel wrote:


Mind you, I have absolutely no idea how you'd end up with a CR 1/6 or 1/8 classed NPC but these values might be useful for running low-fantasy games on the slow XP progression (which would bring your NPC funds down by -2). I determined the values by taking the standard CR 1 encounter treasure of 260 gp, dividing it as appropriate, then tripling it (since NPC treasure values are triple standard for a creature of the same CR, noted in the Gamemastering section).
That's exactly why I need these values. I'm running low-fantasy and contemplating slow progression.

Then I'd definitely recommend adding the chart I gave to your progression list. It would come in handy wonderfully I think, since there is no official answer to be found in the books (to my knowledge). So...even if I couldn't give your thread a good answer, perhaps I can help this way?

EDIT: Since your last post was 23 minutes ago, I figure you might still be around. I'ma go take a shower, be back in a few, in case you've messaged again and are looking for more conversing. :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Kittens are even more dangerous.

Kitten (Young Cat)
N Diminutive Animal
Init +2; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +5

DEFENSE

AC 18, touch 18, flat-footed 14 (+4 Dex, +4 size)
hp 1 (1d8–3)
Fort -1, Ref +6, Will +1

OFFENSE

Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +8 (1–5), bite +8 (1d2–5)
Space 1-1/4 ft.; Reach 0 ft.

STATISTICS

Str 1, Dex 19, Con 4, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +0; CMB -2; CMD 3 (7 vs. trip)
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Climb +5, Perception +5, Stealth +20; Racial Modifiers +4 Climb, +4 Stealth

The kitten sneaks up to you with its +20 stealth (or just uses cuteness to approach), then attacks. It does a minimum (and maximum) of 1 point of nonlethal damage with each attack and gets three in a full attack. With a frightening AC of 18 and a +8 to hit, a group of kittens can easily overwhelm a first level adventurer.


Ashiel wrote:


EDIT: Since your last post was 23 minutes ago, I figure you might still be around. I'ma go take a shower, be back in a few, in case you've messaged again and are looking for more conversing. :)

Yeah I'm here. Working on a map in GIMP, I'd probably get more done if the internet went down again, but you know how that is.


Umbral Reaver wrote:

Kittens are even more dangerous.

Kitten (Young Cat)
N Diminutive Animal
Init +2; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +5

DEFENSE

AC 18, touch 18, flat-footed 14 (+4 Dex, +4 size)
hp 1 (1d8–3)
Fort -1, Ref +6, Will +1

OFFENSE

Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +8 (1–5), bite +8 (1d2–5)
Space 1-1/4 ft.; Reach 0 ft.

STATISTICS

Str 1, Dex 19, Con 4, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +0; CMB -2; CMD 3 (7 vs. trip)
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Climb +5, Perception +5, Stealth +20; Racial Modifiers +4 Climb, +4 Stealth

The kitten sneaks up to you with its +20 stealth (or just uses cuteness to approach), then attacks. It does a minimum (and maximum) of 1 point of nonlethal damage with each attack and gets three in a full attack. With a frightening AC of 18 and a +8 to hit, a group of kittens can easily overwhelm a first level adventurer.

Yeah, but they're so tiny and only have 1 HP. You can more or less auto-kill giant swarms of them with splash weapons or AoE spells. Let's see. Based on space/reach, you're looking at around 4 per square, so you could fit about 36 of them in the radius of a single vial of acid. Not that I'm suggesting it's a good idea to pour acid on kittens (it's barbariac and not in the ragey sort of way), but taking out 36 enemies with 1 acid flask is pretty sweet. I mean, hey, they deal nonlethal damage, so just let anyone (even the wizard!) just get piled by them, then throw an acid flask into the PC's space. The PC and all cats take 1 damage. Cats fall down, PC is barely scathed. Rest off the nonlethal damage since it heals hourly anyway. :P


Grimmy wrote:
Ashiel wrote:


EDIT: Since your last post was 23 minutes ago, I figure you might still be around. I'ma go take a shower, be back in a few, in case you've messaged again and are looking for more conversing. :)
Yeah I'm here. Working on a map in GIMP, I'd probably get more done if the internet went down again, but you know how that is.

Oh my god, tell me about it. Not long ago I was working on my campaign setting pdf, and made the mistake of logging into OpenRPG. There was no more work done on that pdf that night. >_<


So a low fantasy, slow progression Goblin Warrior 1 might have

130 total

25 weapons
65 protection
20 consumables
20 other

Something like that?


Grimmy wrote:

So a low fantasy, slow progression Goblin Warrior 1 might have

130 total

25 weapons
65 protection
20 consumables
20 other

Something like that?

Yep. That's what I'd recommend. Though I think that your average goblin might have a little more in weapons, and a little less in protection. For example, shortbow (35 gp), and studded leather (25 gp). But it's enough money if you wanted to make some goblin soldiers with a 1 hander, shield, and scale mail to boot. The consumables allow just enough for 1 alchemist fire or 2 flasks of acid, which is plenty.


Sounds perfect. I'm on the verge of giving up on making my setting PF compatible though. From the sounds of things on the boards no one would really be interested in a different experience. I'm considering something like Legends & Labyrinths or DCC instead at this point.


OK Ashiel (or anyone else),

Critique this monster for me.

It's supposed to be CR 13 tell me how I did.

--------------------
XOCHI ARACHNE CR 13
Fiendish Advanced Huge Drider Sorcerer 5
CE Huge Aberration
Init +8; Senses: Darkvision; Perception +20
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 28, touch 15, flat-footed 23
hp 169 (9d8+5d6+112)
Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +15
DR 10/good; Immune sleep; Resist cold 15, electricity 5, fire 15; SR 18
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft., Climbing (20 feet)
Melee: Bite +11 (1d6+4/20/x2) and
Rod, Viper +16/+11 (1d8+11/20/x2)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 5 ft.

Special Attacks: Poison, Bite - injury (DC 22), Smite Good (1/day), Web (14 HP) (8/day) (DC 22)

Spell-Like Abilities: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (1/day), Dancing Lights (At will), Darkness (At will), Deeper Darkness (1/day), Detect Good (Constant), Detect Law (Constant), Detect Magic (Constant), Dispel Magic (1/day), Faerie Fire (At will), Levitate (1/day), Suggestion (1/day)

Spells Known (CL 11, +15 melee touch, +10 ranged touch):
5 (5/day) Dominate Person (DC 22), Telekinesis
4 (7/day) Dimension Door, Enervation, Summon Monster IV
3 (8/day) Slow (DC 20), Lightning Bolt (DC 20), Magic Circle against Good (DC 20), Dispel Magic
2 (8/day) Web (DC 19), Bull's Strength (DC 19), Scorching Ray, Invisibility, Summon Swarm, Levitate
1 (8/day) Silent Image (DC 18), Magic Missile, True Strike (DC 18), Mage Armor (DC 18), Cause Fear (DC 18), Ray of Enfeeblement (DC 18)
0 (at will) Resistance (DC 17), Ray of Frost, Bleed (DC 17), Read Magic (DC 17), Mage Hand, Daze (DC 17), Message, Ghost Sound (DC 17), Penumbra
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 28, Dex 18, Con 26, Int 19, Wis 20, Cha 22/24
Base Atk +8; CMB +19; CMD 36

Feats: Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Dodge, Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, Weapon Focus: Bite, Weapon Focus: Mace, Heavy

Skills Acrobatics +8, Bluff +21, Climb +30, Fly +0, Intimidate +21, Knowledge (Arcana) +20, Knowledge (Planes) +20, Perception +20, Spellcraft +20, Stealth +15, Use Magic Device +21

Languages Abyssal, Common, Drow Sign Language, Elven, Undercommon

Combat Gear: Rod, Viper; Other Gear: Headband of Alluring Charisma +2, Ring of Protection +2

--------------------


Edit: Swap Ring of Protection +2 for Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2

Liberty's Edge

VM mercenario wrote:
ciretose wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:

I thought noone was going to reply to the sheer wat of that post...

Noone said to give a dragon armor or swords.

Ahem.

I linked to the dragon in armor discussion that derailed a monk thread above in the same way tigers derailed this one.

You didn't really read that post, did you? Ashiel mentions giving the dragon rings, wondrous items, possibly wands. No mention of armor. At all.

The link to armor was in the other post. Which is exactly what I said in the post you referenced. You even quoted it.

The one I linked here was the swords.

Liberty's Edge

Aratrok wrote:
Let's be honest; how much of a threat is a kobold trying to charge you in melee with its spear or smack you with a sling for 1d3-1 damage? There's not a bear trap or alchemist's fire in sight.

1/4 CR? Which means it would take 4 of them to even be a minor threat to a first level party.

You give those 4 kobalds +1 weapons and alchemist fire and it is a completely different encounter.


PRD wrote wrote:
Use the total gp value found on Table: NPC Gear to determine how much gear he should carry. NPCs that are only scheduled to appear once can have a simpler gear selection.

So there's nothing wrong with Ciretose running kobolds with simple equipment. Heck they even do it in AP's. It puts them on the light side of their CR but so what? As long as everyone's having fun.

Liberty's Edge

Grimmy wrote:
ciretose wrote:

You can have a wide variance by swapping out equipment, or just kicking the CR up a notch if you really add a lot to it.

The system has a ton of ways to modify that are much simpler that calculating treasure and going shopping.

I really don't get how changing the items a creature has is some epiphany. And I really, really don't get how saying that if you give creatures items that make them fight better, that might make them a more difficult encounter.

Changing the gear isn't an epiphany, I always wanted to do it. I just wasn't sure how much I could give them without changing the CR. Now I do.

Take that Dark Stalker. He has Level 4 NPC Gear. So I go to the table and see what this means.

1650 GP total.
650 GP in weapons.
800 in protection.
None for general magic items.
100 for consumables.
200 in mundane gear.

Now I can quickly outfit him with the things I want him to have, and by staying within those guidelines I know that I don't have to go through a whole other process of checking his new stat-block against Bestiary Table 1-1, which always seemed like a clunky, inexact way of doing things since that table is for creating new monsters anyway.

When I realized this I wasn't like "Yes now I can break the game!"
I was like "Cool, now I can breathe life into my game and give it the variability and dynamic range I need to make it feel surprising and real and fun."

Put it this way.

I would trust you wouldn't be trying to up that dark stalker to the point where it was far more powerful than the base model without bumping the CR. You would be looking for add-ons at the edges or flavor.

Now if you think of the base model as you think of a car, it is the core of the car. All the key stuff is there. But when you add the sunroof, alloy wheels, etc...it can either just be a shiner version of the same car, or it can be so souped up that it barely resembles the base model in price and performance.

That is what I see here.

The only question is if the added performance reflects a major change in the base model.

We have a race track near here where they do what are called handicap drag races. Each car lines up on the track according to how fast the car is. Slower cars get a head start. You could have a bugatti vs a beetle, with the beetle starting an 1/8 of a mile down the 1/4 mile track.

The thing is, if you bring in a nitrous injected beetle, that is a different handicap from the base model.

Similarly if you have a kobald who does 1d6-1 damage with a spear and you give them a 1d6 ranged slash damage attack, having 4 of them (a cr 1 encounter) might be a different encounter.

I wouldn't be that concerned about the former, the later could be very deadly to 1st level party.

Would I make the kobalds each cr 1? No. Would I maybe make 1/3 or 1/2. Probably.

If the creatures are more powerful, the are more powerful. It isn't any more complicated than that.

If you don't want to check the chart, fine. Play it by feel. But don't throw common sense out the window if what you make is significantly more powerful than the base model when figuring out CR.

Liberty's Edge

Grimmy wrote:
PRD wrote wrote:
Use the total gp value found on Table: NPC Gear to determine how much gear he should carry. NPCs that are only scheduled to appear once can have a simpler gear selection.
So there's nothing wrong with Ciretose running kobolds with simple equipment. Heck they even do it in AP's. It puts them on the light side of their CR but so what? As long as everyone's having fun.

And there is nothing wrong with Grimmy swapping out a few things or adding a bump to what he (I assume he) feels is a under CRed creature.

The issue is being honest if you are giving more power (or less in the case of goblin weapons that break) to a base creature and thinking about if you need to change the CR before you roll them out.

Most times the answer is no, but in some of the models that have been advocated...


The Dark Stalker is a funny example because the example one in the bestiary has already spent most of it's gold it looks like (depends how much that poison costs which isn't clear). So that was a bad example, I chose it because it had just come up not long before.


ciretose! I would like to send you a private message but you appear to have them turned off.

Liberty's Edge

Grimmy wrote:
The Dark Stalker is a funny example because the example one in the bestiary has already spent most of it's gold it looks like (depends how much that poison costs which isn't clear). So that was a bad example, I chose it because it had just come up not long before.

Not really. Ashiel assumed the cost of the poison was the same as a poison that has a much higher save DC.

Other than the poison all they have are two short swords and leather armor. Not even masterwork.

The people who wrote the bestiary believed the base models reflected the CR listed, and they specifically said if you add gear, compare it to the chart.

The chart is a guideline, much like the magic item creation rules are a guideline.

It is fascinating to me how some people (not you grimmy) find guidelines to be gospel and rules to be guidelines.

Liberty's Edge

Umbral Reaver wrote:
ciretose! I would like to send you a private message but you appear to have them turned off.

Not that I know of. I'll check.


ciretose wrote:
If you don't want to check the chart, fine. Play it by feel. But don't throw common sense out the window if what you make is significantly more powerful than the base model when figuring out CR.

This is all I am saying. I don't check the chart unless I made major changes to something... and even then just to see where the CR might balance out to. My player's characters often run a little stronger than they are expected to be anyway since I have an optimizer contingent in my group. To balance this I don't use listed CR as the XP determiner and instead base it on how challenging the fight actually is.


What would you think of this Goblin:

Goblin Bard 1
So thats CR 1/2
Level 1 NPC Gear is 260 GP
Half that is 130
Let's give him:
Shortbow 30GP
Studded Leather 25 GP
1st level Potion 50 GP
Dogslicer 8 GP
Whip 1 GP
20 Arrows 1 GP
20 left in coins

30+25+50+8+1+1+20=135

I went over by 5 GP and I spent everything but 20 GP in useful gear. Do you think I went overboard for his CR?


ciretose wrote:
Grimmy wrote:
The Dark Stalker is a funny example because the example one in the bestiary has already spent most of it's gold it looks like (depends how much that poison costs which isn't clear). So that was a bad example, I chose it because it had just come up not long before.

Not really. Ashiel assumed the cost of the poison was the same as a poison that has a much higher save DC.

Ah well either way it was pointless for me to use the dark stalker as an example since I have no clue what black smear is worth.


ciretose wrote:

The people who wrote the bestiary believed the base models reflected the CR listed, and they specifically said if you add gear, compare it to the chart.

The chart is a guideline, much like the magic item creation rules are a guideline.

It is fascinating to me how some people (not you grimmy) find guidelines to be gospel and rules to be guidelines.

Actually they said altering the equipment doesn't change the CR unless you do something drastic... NOT that you always have to compare it to the chart like you seem intent on spouting.

The chart is indeed a guideline. So why are you using it like a rule Ciretose?

The only rule I personally don't follow in this argument is the XP for CR. But then everyone knows I house rule XP distribution to improve game play and encourage fun. I stand by this choice.


Aranna wrote:


This is all I am saying. I don't check the chart unless I made major changes to something...

Yeah if I had to check everything against that chart all the time I think I would feel like I should be getting paid. That thing gives me a migraine.

Liberty's Edge

Aranna wrote:
ciretose wrote:

The people who wrote the bestiary believed the base models reflected the CR listed, and they specifically said if you add gear, compare it to the chart.

The chart is a guideline, much like the magic item creation rules are a guideline.

It is fascinating to me how some people (not you grimmy) find guidelines to be gospel and rules to be guidelines.

Actually they said altering the equipment doesn't change the CR unless you do something drastic... NOT that you always have to compare it to the chart like you seem intent on spouting.

The chart is indeed a guideline. So why are you using it like a rule Ciretose?

The only rule I personally don't follow in this argument is the XP for CR. But then everyone knows I house rule XP distribution to improve game play and encourage fun. I stand by this choice.

Keep in mind what I am arguing against is the mindset that led to this quote.

"You literally cannot use "stock monsters" by RAW and it make sense most of the time."

Stock monsters reflect what the people who wrote them believe to be the proper CR. If you disagree you can add a bit of gear. But the rules actually say if you add gear that changes things a lot, consult the chart.

The chart is, by necessity, vague. Kind of like the magic item creation says pricing spells should be done by comparison, so too should assigning CR levels.

If you add things that make your creature more powerful than other creatures of the same cr (the chart being a baseline the devs work off of) adjust your CR.

One person's drastic is another persons normal. So the baseline for what a CR is would be the other monsters in the bestiary.

If you are starting from the argument that the stock monsters in the Bestiary are wrong, you are starting from the logic that the CR assigned by the Devs is wrong.

And so how do we establish common ground if you begin by saying the Devs are wrong in evaluating CR (not you specifically, more a general "you").

The base party is 4 players with a point buy player by WBL. Some parties are better than that for any number of reasons (dice rolling, overwealth, liberal rules reading, etc...) and that isn't wrongbadfun.

But that is part of why they did the three ex paths. If you are always running over CR, take the slow path. If you are a power leveling party take the fast path. If you play exactly as the game was written, probably medium works.

My first exposure to this was in a monk thread where we were creating "viable" monk builds and comparing them to creatures in the bestiary to see if they could contribute viably.

When they were going against a dragon, Ashiel came in and said that the book dragon was unfairly easy, as it would need to spend a good chunk of it's hoard to be viable. That is where the above quote is from, and I linked to it I think last page.

That whole thread got derailed because Ashiel didn't think it was a viable discussion unless you bumped the power level of the dragon to the point that it would make the monks no longer viable to a party.

That is the basis for this thread (or at least one of them, as I got the impression from others this argument had derailed previous threads as well...)

So to sum up, I am not saying you can't make your monsters in your game more powerful. I am arguing the bestiary was written with the stat blocks to be presumed of the CR level they show. Meaning they are an average encounter for players of that CR level, likely to consume about 1/4 of daily resources of a party of 4 playing by WBL and point buy, and have a fairly low risk of fatality (at least until bringing someone back from the dead is viable)

Liberty's Edge

Grimmy wrote:
Aranna wrote:


This is all I am saying. I don't check the chart unless I made major changes to something...
Yeah if I had to check everything against that chart all the time I think I would feel like I should be getting paid. That thing gives me a migraine.

I actually find the chart fairly easy to use. What I generally do is to just compare it to CR creatures of the next level and see if it rises to that level or stays where it is.

Most times it stays where it is, but particularly with disposables that can vary.


ciretose wrote:


Keep in mind what I am arguing against is the mindset that led to this quote.

"You literally cannot use "stock monsters" by RAW and it make sense most of the time."

I agree that language was a little too strong. I would have put it differently. At least it says "most of the time" though right?

Anyway I can see how this would push buttons. A lot of people just aren't going to have time to play around with the stat blocks, and that's fine.


Disposables ARE a tricky thing to control CR with. They may or may not get used meaning you can't truly predict what your end CR is going to be when using them. The players may get lucky or crafty and defeat the monsters before they use the disposables and then you have a lower CR with higher treasure. VS the situation where the monsters get to use all their disposables in the fight either due to poor party tactics or bad luck and now you have a more difficult fight with weaker treasure. This is why I wouldn't be quick to adjust CR based on just disposables.


If you had the time and inclination to put in the work, would you adjust the CRs of the monsters referred to, to better reflect their challenge?


Grimmy wrote:
ciretose wrote:


Keep in mind what I am arguing against is the mindset that led to this quote.

"You literally cannot use "stock monsters" by RAW and it make sense most of the time."

I agree that language was a little too strong. I would have put it differently. At least it says "most of the time" though right?

Anyway I can see how this would push buttons. A lot of people just aren't going to have time to play around with the stat blocks, and that's fine.

I second Grimmy here. Stock monsters may not have ALL their resources allocated but that hardly makes them unusable even at the listed CR.


Aranna wrote:
Disposables ARE a tricky thing to control CR with. They may or may not get used meaning you can't truly predict what your end CR is going to be when using them. The players may get lucky or crafty and defeat the monsters before they use the disposables and then you have a lower CR with higher treasure. VS the situation where the monsters get to use all their disposables in the fight either due to poor party tactics or bad luck and now you have a more difficult fight with weaker treasure. This is why I wouldn't be quick to adjust CR based on just disposables.

I can definitely see that there is a certain wildcard factor with consumables. But there are also hard limits built into the budget for them. So I agree with you. Unless I was disregarding the limits in the budget, and spending a disproportionate amount of my treasure quota on consumables, I don't see how they will throw my CR out of whack.

I bet there are exceptions to this if you get into obvious cheese territory, but I can't think of one so far. A wand with one charge maybe?


Umbral Reaver wrote:
If you had the time and inclination to put in the work, would you adjust the CRs of the monsters referred to, to better reflect their challenge?

For me, I have all the time and inclination in the world, because I'm prepping a huge, huge amount of material, and I don't want to have to fix it later so I really want to get it right the first time around.

But try as I might, I can't find an example of a legal amount of gear being sufficient to up the CR. It seems to me the guidelines they have in place are solid and work well.


Ashiel, I love that idea with the cats. I'm totally using it at some point.
However, I would like to argue on the part of the weasel. I was recently GMing a game in which each player played a goblin commoner with one of the Commoner Flaws from Dragon magazine (#330, I believe). We almost lost! D:
(seriously, those things are murderous)

Liberty's Edge

Grimmy wrote:
Aranna wrote:
Disposables ARE a tricky thing to control CR with. They may or may not get used meaning you can't truly predict what your end CR is going to be when using them. The players may get lucky or crafty and defeat the monsters before they use the disposables and then you have a lower CR with higher treasure. VS the situation where the monsters get to use all their disposables in the fight either due to poor party tactics or bad luck and now you have a more difficult fight with weaker treasure. This is why I wouldn't be quick to adjust CR based on just disposables.

I can definitely see that there is a certain wildcard factor with consumables. But there are also hard limits built into the budget for them. So I agree with you. Unless I was disregarding the limits in the budget, and spending a disproportionate amount of my treasure quota on consumables, I don't see how they will throw my CR out of whack.

I bet there are exceptions to this if you get into obvious cheese territory, but I can't think of one so far. A wand with one charge maybe?

Don't even get me started on partially charged wands....


They have their place.

PRD wrote wrote:
Limited Use: Items that fall into this category include alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands with few charges. Charged wondrous items fall into this grouping as well.

Emphasis mine.

Liberty's Edge

Grimmy wrote:

They have their place.

PRD wrote wrote:
Limited Use: Items that fall into this category include alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands with few charges. Charged wondrous items fall into this grouping as well.
Emphasis mine.

Take a look at the thread I linked to for context of why I am fine with you not trying to game the cost systems and not so much others.

I don't imagine you or Aranna would try and abuse the system to find loopholes in the wealth system like single charge wants to overpower a creature without adjusting CR.

Others...


I don't think I have ever seen a one charge wand used... The lowest was from a module my GM converted from 1st or 2nd edition I think and had just 10 charges.


Honestly, even the 1 charge wand isn't looking like a CR shifting nova effect to me. A single charge wand of lightning bolt is like 225 GP. So you won't find that in even the most kitted out monster until CR 5. At that CR, is one jolt of 5d6 really a game changer? And Reflex for half?

551 to 600 of 809 << first < prev | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Gamer Life / General Discussion / "We Do a Full Body Cavity Search on the Demoness" All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.